"Armor" in SW and ST

[Ma Deuce]

This concerns ROTJ and ST:FC. Why is it that "body armor" in some sci-fi seems next to useless against...anything? I mean, in ROTJ, we saw the ewoks taking down stormies with arrows and slingshot-hurled stones, and
in FC, Picard perforated two Borg with a holographic '30s-era Thompson SMG (a weapon that can easily be stopped by Level-IIIA and possibly Level II body armor). The Star Trek borg armor (I can't think of any other purpose for those bulky exoskelital suits the Borg wear) is probably of worse quality, since it is is much thicker than stormie armor. So why this useless armor? Since DW's calculations have proven beyond reasonable doubt how powerful SW starships are compared the ST ships, why has personal protection in SW not advanced at a similar as well? If it had, wouldn't the stormies on Endor just have been able to laugh at the Ewok's primitive weapons? (of course the Federation is even worse, in that they do not give any protection at all to their troops)

Even the Borg, whose technolegy is many millenia behind the Empire's should have been able to develop personal protection better than was demonstrated (I say "should", not necessarly "would", given how stupid the Borg have shown themselves to be), and thus would not even be tickled by a tommygun?. Can suspension of disbelief be used to determine why neither party did?

DISCLAIMER: I am NOT a Trekkie and, I in no way dispute DW's calculations proving how powerful SW is compared to ST. I am not trying to start a flame either (thats the last thing I want to do). I am also very new to the art of debating Sci-fi...
Just thought I would mention that, given that all of you may be a little edgy about this kind of post, given all the trekkie assholes who have come to this board in the past...

[Lord Pounder]

The arrows the Ewoks where firing scored hits in the parts the white ceramic armour didn't cover. There are gaps and well know weak spots in ST armour.

However in Heir to the Empire Grand Admiral Thrawn is hit by a crossbow bolt on Wayland and it just bounces off his armour.

[Darth Wong]

In order to make individual troopers impervious, you'd need to spend a huge amount of money. As it is, stormtrooper armour provides very good protection since you basically have to hit one of the black rubber parts to get him with shrapnel or conventional small-arms fire. Heavier weapons will get through, but it's simply not feasible to armour every trooper with shields or heavy armour. The weight becomes a killer, and then you have to add power assist, which creates even more problems, not to mention costs.

Even today, we could theoretically put far more body armour on a trooper than we do, but it would impede his movement, cost money, weigh him down, etc.

[Ma Deuce]

Okay, I just watched that part of ROTJ a bit more more closely, so I'll concede the Stormie armor is much stronger than initially gave it credit for...

But the Borg "armor" (which is incredibly bulky)... Well, if it is that weak, is it possible it is not intended as armor at all? (I still can't see what else it could be), or can we chalk this to yet another Trek oversight?

[Isolder74]

Not to mention that most of the Stormtroppers we saw killed were from arrows that hit scout troopers with their weaker armor and much less coverage. A mase is a weapon that could kill a medevil weapon that would often kill someone without causing much visible damage to the armor itself. Enough concossive shock to the head can still kill/imcapacitate the where. Put a soldier in the best body armor available and drop him out of an airplane at 10,000 feet(without a parachute) and see if he still dies. Those were some pretty big rocks those Ewoks were tossing around like they were made of paper mache. Most of the time we saw that the Ewoks were not all that effective and were fairling rather poorly until Chewie comendeered that AT-ST

[HRogge]

Okay, I just watched that part of ROTJ a bit more more closely, so I'll concede the Stormie armor is much stronger than initially gave it credit for...

But the Borg "armor" (which is incredibly bulky)... Well, if it is that weak, is it possible it is not intended as armor at all? (I still can't see what else it could be), or can we chalk this to yet another Trek oversight?

Don't forget that the armor gives the stormtrooper communication equipment, better vision and protection from biological/chemical attacks.

[Ma Deuce]

Don't forget that the armor gives the stormtrooper communication equipment, better vision and protection from biological/chemical attacks.

Yes I know, but I was specifically referring to how much armor protection they offered (a point which is now moot, since I have conceded that the ewok arrows were actually hitting "gaps", between the armor plates, not the actual plates themselves).

[Isolder74]

Okay, I just watched that part of ROTJ a bit more more closely, so I'll concede the Stormie armor is much stronger than initially gave it credit for...

But the Borg "armor" (which is incredibly bulky)... Well, if it is that weak, is it possible it is not intended as armor at all? (I still can't see what else it could be), or can we chalk this to yet another Trek oversight?

It does not appear to be any kind of armor at all. It only appears to defend against Energy attacks. The Borg are, as seen on screen, have always been highly suceptible to physical attacks. They have been killed by too many low tech kinetic weapons for them to havee any sort of body armor.

[Ma Deuce]

It does not appear to be any kind of armor at all. It only appears to defend against Energy attacks. The Borg are, as seen on screen, have always been highly suceptible to physical attacks. They have been killed by too many low tech kinetic weapons for them to havee any sort of body armor.

The Borg use shields to defend against energy attacks, not their "armor". Remember that Voyager Season 4 episode "The Raven"? In the part where Seven was trying to escape from the ship to rejoin the collective, she was shot several times by security officers, and was protected from their phaser rifles by her shields. Since these shields can clearly protect against energy weapons without the "armor" present, that is clearly not it's purpose. Also, the "armor" provides no protection against energy weapons before the Borg are able to adapt their shields to them...

[Ma Deuce]

EDIT: Wait, the "armor" does provide some protection against energy weapons, but only to level of attacks similar to a phaser on stun (see: Q, Who?). Anything higher than stun seems to punch right through it.

[HRogge]

EDIT: Wait, the "armor" does provide some protection against energy weapons, but only to level of attacks similar to a phaser on stun (see: Q, Who?). Anything higher than stun seems to punch right through it.

It's most likely like a bulletproofe vest... small caliber ( stun ) does no permanent damage, more dangerous things ( blasterfire ) does knock you our, injures you but you are not dead !

[Ma Deuce]

It's most likely like a bulletproofe vest... small caliber ( stun ) does no permanent damage, more dangerous things ( blasterfire ) does knock you our, injures you but you are not dead !

Perhaps, but those Borg exo-suits look more bulky than Level IV body armor, which looks to me as more bulky than even Level IV body armor (which can withstand hits from .30-06 AP rounds, but is considered too bulky to be worn by infantry. By comparison the Borg suits were penetrated by .45 ACP rounds, which aren't really that effective against body armor). Not very efficient. Of course, armor protection may not be it's only function. Maybe something to do with the a Borg drone's ability to function in a vacuum like we saw in FC?

[Ma Deuce]

Damn! repeated phrase in last post. I MUST get used to lack of edit...

[Stewart at SDI]

The M1928Ai and variants thereof fire a 15 Gram .45 Cal. slug at about 300M/S. Class 1 soft body armor will stop this treat easily. Class 1 is the soft concielable stuff that cops wear under their shirts that you can't see. Class II is the thicker but still soft stuff that you can see under their shirts.

The current U. S. Army type "CRISAT" armor consists of 3.2MM alumia-oxide ceramic over 1.6MM of cold rolled titainium plates each the size of a playing card. many of these plates are lapped in the vest over top a soft Kevelar backing that will stop +99% of hand gun rounds all by it self. The hard plates will stop many rifle rounds from some distance and some with the muzzle touching the vest. It weighs 17 or 26 pounds depending on wether it has tha hard steel trauma plate incerts installed. This armor costs' $17,000 each. The Kevelar helmet is less well protected and only costs' about $73. It is not better protected because it must not weigh to much.

Having said all that This armor aray even with the steel incerts will not stop certain types of HV rounds, that are available over the counter. I am talking about lead core soft point comertial hunting ammo, not mission oriented armor piercing types. With special bullets, even NiCroMo Steel plates that weigh 31 pounds per square foot are easily perforated by .223 ammo at conciderable range. There is no concievable body armor now or in the future that can resist attack by projectiles specificly designed to perforate armor.

This points up the problem with body armor, it can not possably stop even moderate attacks by type specific ammo. The value of body armor is that it protects the wearer from many "lesser" threats and thus gives him mobility on the battle field and as such is never designed to defeat the maximum attack but instead the minimum threat that will alow enough of the troups to get the mission done. (Except in the U. S. Army were it's cheaper to get better armor than pay the disability benifits. The armor will still not stop AP rounds.)

[Worlds Spanner]

Recall that in the ST universe nearly every culture we see uses almost exclusively energy weapons, except for the Klingons in certain contexts. The Borg have no reason to defend against conventional arms.

...Which is one thing that always makes me scream. You'd think that in the end of ST:FC when Picard is modifying his phaser, he's be replicating firearms and then beating the crap out of the Borg. For that matter, if the Federation or ANY power in ST were to deploy conventional weapons, it would convey a huge advantage due to flexability.

The future is stupid, clearly.

[Ma Deuce]

Recall that in the ST universe nearly every culture we see uses almost exclusively energy weapons, except for the Klingons in certain contexts. The Borg have no reason to defend against conventional arms.

...Which is one thing that always makes me scream. You'd think that in the end of ST:FC when Picard is modifying his phaser, he's be replicating firearms and then beating the crap out of the Borg. For that matter, if the Federation or ANY power in ST were to deploy conventional weapons, it would convey a huge advantage due to flexability.

The future is stupid, clearly.

Even worse, Starfleet was actually developing a slug-shooting rifle called the TR-116 ("Field of Fire" DS9, season 7), but cancelled it in favor of "regenerative phasers" (whatever those are).

[Kuja]

Even worse, Starfleet was actually developing a slug-shooting rifle called the TR-116 ("Field of Fire" DS9, season 7), but cancelled it in favor of "regenerative phasers" (whatever those are).

*snort*

Let me guess, phasers that continually recharge themselves?

But then, why am I surprised? After all, these are the same pople who gave us "My power cells continually recharge themselves." - Data.


As to the strength of stormtrooper armor, a good example comes from the Young Jedi Knights series, where a man wearing the armor was struck in the chest with a spear hard enough to lift him off his feet and slam him into a wall. The only damage to the armor was "a tiny nick".

Oh, and welcome to the board, Deuce.

[Stark]

The resident Borg-phile made an interesting point recently - that if the Borg cannot defend against physical attacks, that they would then be pretty much incapable of assimilating primitive or intelligent cultures.

Sure, in ST all the major powers are dumb enough to not notice the pattern, but the borg could never have assilimated the Roman empire, for instance. Surely SOMEONE in the galaxy still uses slugthrowers? This seems to suggest that the energy/physical thing might be more complex than we imagine... although its hard to see how since Worfs Knife can slice drones up.

[Wild Karrde]

Tatooine Ghost is another good example of Storm Trooper armor.

Slight spoilers:

Torwards the end sand-pepole are firing on some Storm Troopers, Han, and Leia in ST armor with a SW version of a high powered sniper riffle and the bullets bounce harmlessy off both the front and back of them.

Also IIRC Thrawn in ST armor takes several blaster shots from Han's blaster without damage.

[HRogge]

The resident Borg-phile made an interesting point recently - that if the Borg cannot defend against physical attacks, that they would then be pretty much incapable of assimilating primitive or intelligent cultures.

Sure, in ST all the major powers are dumb enough to not notice the pattern, but the borg could never have assilimated the Roman empire, for instance. Surely SOMEONE in the galaxy still uses slugthrowers? This seems to suggest that the energy/physical thing might be more complex than we imagine... although its hard to see how since Worfs Knife can slice drones up.

I don't think the borgs have any interest in assimilating primitives... and I bet that the Hirogen HAVE KE weapons, which might be the reason why they don't fear the borgs...

[Sarevok]

Recall that in the ST universe nearly every culture we see uses almost exclusively energy weapons, except for the Klingons in certain contexts. The Borg have no reason to defend against conventional arms.

...Which is one thing that always makes me scream. You'd think that in the end of ST:FC when Picard is modifying his phaser, he's be replicating firearms and then beating the crap out of the Borg. For that matter, if the Federation or ANY power in ST were to deploy conventional weapons, it would convey a huge advantage due to flexability.

The future is stupid, clearly.

Even worse, Starfleet was actually developing a slug-shooting rifle called the TR-116 ("Field of Fire" DS9, season 7), but cancelled it in favor of "regenerative phasers" (whatever those are).

A Federation assault rifle would be cool. It would be fun to watch Feds kill borgs by spraying them with bullets.

[Ma Deuce]

A Federation assault rifle would be cool. It would be fun to watch Feds kill borgs by spraying them with bullets.

I wouldn't trust the Federation to build an assault rifle, as it would be incredibly un-ergonomic (like most other Feddie weapons). They would find it much simpler and effective to replicate some 20th century assault rifle like an M16. In doing so, they could learn something from weapon designers who were actually intelligent .

[Crazedwraith]

A Federation assault rifle would be cool. It would be fun to watch Feds kill borgs by spraying them with bullets.

I wouldn't trust the Federation to build an assault rifle, as it would be incredibly un-ergonomic (like most other Feddie weapons). They would find it much simpler and effective to replicate some 20th century assault rifle like an M16. In doing so, they could learn something from weapon designers who were actually intelligent .

Actually the TNG movie rifles were quite ergononmic. And even then the redshirts couldn't hit shit with them.

Although people going on about riker missing the viceroy seem to forget his first shot. You know? the one where he shoots the viceroy's pistol out of his hand?

[Lucius Licinius Lucullus]

They would find it much simpler and effective to replicate some 20th century assault rifle like an M16. In doing so, they could learn something from weapon designers who were actually intelligent .

Was that sarcasm? Hard to tell. The M16 (the original one used in Vietnam) can hardly be called an intelligent design, just ask any veteran from that war. The later models of said rifle, though better is hardly one of the better rifles available.

[Ma Deuce]

They would find it much simpler and effective to replicate some 20th century assault rifle like an M16. In doing so, they could learn something from weapon designers who were actually intelligent .

Was that sarcasm? Hard to tell. The M16 (the original one used in Vietnam) can hardly be called an intelligent design, just ask any veteran from that war. The later models of said rifle, though better is hardly one of the better rifles available.

I am aware of the teething problems of the early M16A1s, but I was referring to the current models, like the M16A2/A3/A4. What's so bad about the current-model M16's?