"Armor" in SW and ST

[Sea Skimmer]

I am aware of the teething problems of the early M16A1s, but I was referring to the current models, like the M16A2/A3/A4. What's so bad about the current-model M16's?

Nothing really, the minor technical advantages that some other rifles can claim are often by the fact that they tend to cost several times as much.

[Luzifer's right hand]

I don't think the borgs have any interest in assimilating primitives... and I bet that the Hirogen HAVE KE weapons, which might be the reason why they don't fear the borgs...

I read a a post here while ago about "omega particles"(a voyager episode AFAIK) someone wrote that the Borg heard about it for the first time from assimilated primitives.

[Ma Deuce]

I am aware of the teething problems of the early M16A1s, but I was referring to the current models, like the M16A2/A3/A4. What's so bad about the current-model M16's?

Nothing really, the minor technical advantages that some other rifles can claim are often by the fact that they tend to cost several times as much.

Methinks the best example of this would be now-defunct G41. Didn't it cost something like 3x as much as the M16A2 per unit?

[Ma Deuce]

I don't think the borgs have any interest in assimilating primitives... and I bet that the Hirogen HAVE KE weapons, which might be the reason why they don't fear the borgs...

I read a a post here while ago about "omega particles"(a voyager episode AFAIK) someone wrote that the Borg heard about it for the first time from assimilated primitives.

I would think they would assimilate any sapient humanoid lifeform they encountered (even if they had no relevant tech to offer), even if only for the purpose of acquiring extra manpower. Assimilation seems to be the Borg's only method of obtaining new drones, so I don't see why not...

[HRogge]

I would think they would assimilate any sapient humanoid lifeform they encountered (even if they had no relevant tech to offer), even if only for the purpose of acquiring extra manpower. Assimilation seems to be the Borg's only method of obtaining new drones, so I don't see why not...

DO you remember the borgchilds in the TNG episode where we saw the borgs the first time ?

[Robert Walper]

I don't think the borgs have any interest in assimilating primitives... and I bet that the Hirogen HAVE KE weapons, which might be the reason why they don't fear the borgs...

I read a a post here while ago about "omega particles"(a voyager episode AFAIK) someone wrote that the Borg heard about it for the first time from assimilated primitives.

I would think they would assimilate any sapient humanoid lifeform they encountered (even if they had no relevant tech to offer), even if only for the purpose of acquiring extra manpower. Assimilation seems to be the Borg's only method of obtaining new drones, so I don't see why not...

Actually, that's incorrect. Modern Borg technology(Voyager era) is capable of growing a drone(not a clone) within a day. While this is extremely fast, acquiring manpower via their typical assimilation process is even faster(only a couple of hours at most).

And in regards to the STVOY "Omega" episode, the Borg were assimilating those primitive species in order to locate the Omega substance.

It should also be noted that acquiring technology is not the sole goal of the Borg Collective. Their objectives also include assimilating biological distinctiveness as well. Meaning a species wouldn't need any technology whatsoever to attract their attention, just unique and useful biological makeup.

[Comosicus]

I am aware of the teething problems of the early M16A1s, but I was referring to the current models, like the M16A2/A3/A4. What's so bad about the current-model M16's?

Nothing really, the minor technical advantages that some other rifles can claim are often by the fact that they tend to cost several times as much.

Methinks the best example of this would be now-defunct G41. Didn't it cost something like 3x as much as the M16A2 per unit?

[Comosicus]

damn internet connection ...

I intended to say that many people consider that AK-47 is far more reliable (and cheaper and easier to maintain) than M16.

Just imagine a squad of redshirts putting lead into a bunch of drones with their AK-s And, of course, they must have russian accent.

[Lucius Licinius Lucullus]

I am aware of the teething problems of the early M16A1s, but I was referring to the current models, like the M16A2/A3/A4. What's so bad about the current-model M16's?

Hmm, I didnt say it was bad, just that there are better ones available. Though to me it does tend to jam an awfull lot as well as I hate the three shot salvoe function. I prefer that either you shoot one shot, or you have full auto, on wich your accuracy can be described as "Leadrain all over the place".
AFAIK both the full-auto function on other rifles as well as the three-shot salvoe on newer models of the M16 is intended to be used during close-quarters fighting. I just dont like the three-shot salvoe, it puts to much emphasis on training and discipline, rather then the doctrine "most lead in the air wins".

Anyhow this thread isnt about rifle discussions and I am sorry to have brought it OT.

Back to the discussion, IMHO the Feds ought to dublicate large amounts of virtually any 20th century assault rifle, MBT´s, APC´s, MRL´s or howitzers it can get its hands on.... hell they ought to clone Gunnery-Sergeant Hartman to get someone to be able to train their "army". For they sure lack the ability to train them up to any standard themselves.

[Luzifer's right hand]

And in regards to the STVOY "Omega" episode, the Borg were assimilating those primitive species in order to locate the Omega substance.

I found the script for the episode.

7 of 9

"It began with Species 262. They were primitive, but their oral history referred to a powerful substance which could "burn the sky." The Borg were intrigued, which led them to Species 263. They, too, were primitive and believed it was a drop of blood from their Creator."

I sounds more like they learned about the Omega particle from an primitve culture they assimilated.
We don't know why they assimilated species 262 in the first place.

[neoolong]

Actually the TNG movie rifles were quite ergononmic. And even then the redshirts couldn't hit shit with them.

Although people going on about riker missing the viceroy seem to forget his first shot. You know? the one where he shoots the viceroy's pistol out of his hand?

Is that accuracy? Or luck? If someone is trying to invade your ship, are you going to take the time to disarm them by shooting their weapons out of their hands or are you going to just try to kill them?

[YT300000]

The M1928Ai and variants thereof fire a 15 Gram .45 Cal. slug at about 300M/S. Class 1 soft body armor will stop this treat easily. Class 1 is the soft concielable stuff that cops wear under their shirts that you can't see. Class II is the thicker but still soft stuff that you can see under their shirts.

Nitpick: Class II actually tends to be thinner than Class I, as almost all the existing Class I vests are the first generation models. There were second generation, and practically no third generation Class Is.

[Chris OFarrell]

Tatooine Ghost is another good example of Storm Trooper armor.

Slight spoilers:

Torwards the end sand-pepole are firing on some Storm Troopers, Han, and Leia in ST armor with a SW version of a high powered sniper riffle and the bullets bounce harmlessy off both the front and back of them.

Uh they were being fired at very primitive slugthrowers Tuskans use, not high tech projectile rifles like Zam used in Episode II. We see the slugs in Episode 1 being fired on the Pod Racers. They exactly do more then slighty scratch Anies pod. Which I dobut is armoured.

But the armour did protect them from the slugs. They got enormous bruises from the impacts and getting sent sprawling into the ground, but the armour held.

[Ma Deuce]

damn internet connection ...

I intended to say that many people consider that AK-47 is far more reliable (and cheaper and easier to maintain) than M16.

Just imagine a squad of redshirts putting lead into a bunch of drones with their AK-s And, of course, they must have russian accent.

Nah, thats all wrong! You should have them screaming in Arabic (or some other middle-eastern language) . If you want Russians, give them AK74s, especially the newer ones with the black polymer furniture (now thats a cool-looking rifle ). Even better, equip the rifles with GP-30 grenade launchers. Honoestly, when I think of the AK47, the first thing that comes to my mind is terrorist thugs, not Russians.

[YT300000]

Tatooine Ghost is another good example of Storm Trooper armor.

Slight spoilers:

Torwards the end sand-pepole are firing on some Storm Troopers, Han, and Leia in ST armor with a SW version of a high powered sniper riffle and the bullets bounce harmlessy off both the front and back of them.

Uh they were being fired at very primitive slugthrowers Tuskans use, not high tech projectile rifles like Zam used in Episode II. We see the slugs in Episode 1 being fired on the Pod Racers. They exactly do more then slighty scratch Anies pod.

And took out Teemto Pagalies' engine, which then blew up.

[Drooling Iguana]

I don't think the borgs have any interest in assimilating primitives... and I bet that the Hirogen HAVE KE weapons, which might be the reason why they don't fear the borgs...

I read a a post here while ago about "omega particles"(a voyager episode AFAIK) someone wrote that the Borg heard about it for the first time from assimilated primitives.

I would think they would assimilate any sapient humanoid lifeform they encountered (even if they had no relevant tech to offer), even if only for the purpose of acquiring extra manpower. Assimilation seems to be the Borg's only method of obtaining new drones, so I don't see why not...

Seven of Nine mentioned in one episode (I forget which one) that the Borg considered the Kazon to be "unworthy of assimilation."

[Agent Fisher]

it puts to much emphasis on training and discipline, rather then the doctrine "most lead in the air wins".

That may have worked for past wars, but in modern combat you cant afford to spray bullets in the air. You would get hit waiting for the reload.

In october 1993, in somalia, the american forces had a high kill, 1000 thousand enemy KIA, rate because they aimed and had training and discipline. The somalias only killed 18 guys and wounded about a hundered, and they were spraying bullets at them.

Spray and Pray doesn't work anymore.

[Lucius Licinius Lucullus]

That may have worked for past wars, but in modern combat you cant afford to spray bullets in the air. You would get hit waiting for the reload.

In october 1993, in somalia, the american forces had a high kill, 1000 thousand enemy KIA, rate because they aimed and had training and discipline. The somalias only killed 18 guys and wounded about a hundered, and they were spraying bullets at them.

Spray and Pray doesn't work anymore.

I wouldnt call the USAs and UNs effort in Somalia a "War". Proffesional forces are superior in small low-intensity wars, llike Iraq I and II as well as in Somalia. Wich in fairness is what the USA is most likely to get involved in nowadays. Unfortunatly it leaves a problem with manpower in drawnout conflicts, wich is the backside of proffesional armies, if you suffer losses you have a devil of a time to replace them.

Regarding Somalia, the US forces had much more then "just" training and discipline in their favour, technology as well as Air Superiority is as much if not more important then training and discipline.

Anyow this isnt part of the discussion regarding SW vs ST, if anyone wants to continue this discussion please start a new thread.

[Old Plympto]

And took out Teemto Pagalies' engine, which then blew up.

I thought the slug severed the control cable to one of the pod engines which, during the long turn, caused his pod to crash. The engine wasn't actually damaged by the shot itself it seemed to me.

[GySgt. Hartman]

Back to the discussion, IMHO the Feds ought to dublicate large amounts of virtually any 20th century assault rifle, MBT´s, APC´s, MRL´s or howitzers it can get its hands on.... hell they ought to clone Gunnery-Sergeant Hartman to get someone to be able to train their "army". For they sure lack the ability to train them up to any standard themselves.

I am not sure of their Redshirt would survive recruit training. But thanks for the vote of confidence.

[Ma Deuce]

I am not sure of their Redshirt would survive recruit training. But thanks for the vote of confidence.

Hell, I doubt they would even survive Army training, let alone Marine boot camp ...

[Lancer]

I am not sure of their Redshirt would survive recruit training. But thanks for the vote of confidence.

Hell, I doubt they would even survive Army training, let alone Marine boot camp ...

They wouldn't. As soon as the redshirt entered the camp, France would spontaineously declare war on the US and nuke the camp or something, thus making the Redshirt's death both pointless and amusing.

[YT300000]

And took out Teemto Pagalies' engine, which then blew up.

I thought the slug severed the control cable to one of the pod engines which, during the long turn, caused his pod to crash. The engine wasn't actually damaged by the shot itself it seemed to me.

Meh. I haven't seen that movie in many months, and an not particularly eager to break that trend.

[Lord of the Farce]

Uh they were being fired at very primitive slugthrowers Tuskans use, not high tech projectile rifles like Zam used in Episode II. We see the slugs in Episode 1 being fired on the Pod Racers. They exactly do more then slighty scratch Anies pod. Which I dobut is armoured.

I haven't seen the movie for a long while, but I don't recall any hitting Anakin's Podracer.

But the armour did protect them from the slugs. They got enormous bruises from the impacts and getting sent sprawling into the ground, but the armour held.

They (Han & Leia plus Stormtroopers) were knocked off their feet consistently by the impacts of the slugs, but besides Leia (IIRC) complaining about the shot that hit her leg armour was going to leave a bruise, I don't recall any other mention of bruising. In fact, towards the end the Stormtroopers who got hit by the slugs but were not killed simply got right back up again, and again, and again.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

AFAIK both the full-auto function on other rifles as well as the three-shot salvoe on newer models of the M16 is intended to be used during close-quarters fighting. I just dont like the three-shot salvoe, it puts to much emphasis on training and discipline, rather then the doctrine "most lead in the air wins".

Actually, the story I heard said that 3-round burst was partially due to the US' lack of faith in the discipline of their soldiers. The mode was put there to keep them from shooting off entire magazines on a whim. Most people include 3-round burst as an OPTION, not a substitute for full auto.

Now some prefer the two-round burst.