Holocaust Denial....

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-10-12 01:49am

Something from one of my boards......

Talk about Holocaust denial ...

There is another holocaust that happened only a decade or two
prior to the one we are been constantly reminded of.

Sometime toward the beginning of last century, in a final spasm of barbarism and gross evil, the declining Ottoman Empire (Turkish Islamists) instructed it's 'pashars' to send out the death squads against Christians - mainly Armenian Orthodox Christians.

My wife's grandfather who lived in the Anatole as a child, lived through and managed to survive those barbarous years. He died aged 97 about fifteen years ago. Prior to his death, whenever we would visit him at his humble little home in his little village in Salonika, Greece, he would recount some of the most harrowing and blood curdling stories any person on this earth could ever hear - first hand experience of, and eyewitness to, the genocide committed upon the Armenian Christian Orthodox people (and many Greek Orthodox too) by the Turkish Islamists.

Stories of thousands of Christians being herded into large pits having petrol poured on them and being burnt alive.

Stories of thousands of Christians being herded into barbed wire enclosures and having their heads smashed in by sledge hammer wielding Islamic death squads (to save bullets).

Stories of Christians lined up in long rows and 3 deep, being shot with one bullet (to save bullets). Those not killed outright, were subsequently buried alive.

Other occasions, where to save petrol and bullets, thousands of Christians were simply buried alive.

Stories of young male children - 5, 10, 15 year olds, being herded into enclosures with several death squad members systematically going round and poking kabab skewers into their eyes - for sport, prior to shooting them, burning them, or burying them alive. Or the slight variation to this ... their eyes being pushed in by fingertip and crushed garlic being inserted into the chasm resulting in unspeakable agony to the sufferer.

Stories of young females suffering the most horrible, horrible indignation and torture prior to being disposed of in similar fashion.

Stories of grown men - Christian soldiers, resistance fighters, being impaled trough the anus right through to the throat or mouth, and being barbecued alive over a slow fire.

Stories of pregnant women being disemboweled and having their unborn ripped out of them, and used as soccer balls or tossed around on bayonets.

And the old man wasn't kidding either. He had an old scrapbook of grainy old photographs, which depicted some of what he was telling us. One particular photograph which will remain forever etched in my memory was that of a small mountain of severed heads, some of them still wearing Christian regalia (obviously heads of the clergy ) proudly paraded by the pashars themselves as the posed for these photographs.

History records that around 1 million Christens died in this genocide - but the old man told me in no uncertain terms that the number was far higher - perhaps 1.6 million, and although I have no way of verifying this, not much of whatever else he has told me has been proven false !

Death by gas chamber would have been a relief compared to the atrocities mentioned above, (and many other atrocities which will go un-mentioned by me here). But it has remained a curious fact of history, that although the Armenian Christian holocaust is adequately recorded, it has remained largely out of the public consciousness ... even whilst we have been saturated to the back teeth with the Jewish holocaust !

Subsequent to the old mans death, and subsequent to a spate of interest in this matter on my part 10 - 15 years ago, I had left it alone these last ten years, and written it off as just one of the legion of ongoing horrors perpetrated upon mankind by himself. So why now ? Why am I bringing it up here ?

Well, last night there was program on Australian SBS TV, called 'Holocaust Denied' (or something similar to that). Interestingly, it was presented by one Yanna Wvent, a nice Jewish lady, and a strident Israeli supporter ... so it was interesting coming from her ...

Anyway, the program recounted in detail much of what my wife's grandfather had related to us - the graphic details, the torture, the genocide of over a million Christians not to long ago in our history. It even showed similar photographs to what the old man had shown us - frame after frame of Turkish soldiers proudly parading their mutilated Christian victims !

A good part of the program went into the politics of all this ... how in the last many decades, Turkey has studiously denied the Christian Armenian holocaust - contrary to the solid evidence of it, and how the Armenian people have struggled for recognition or sympathy on the world stage, but received none. It told of how Turkey has even set up some Ministry of Propaganda for the sole purpose of denial. It told of how in years past, acknowledgement of, or even discussion of the holocaust by Turks, would result in severe punishment from that Islamic State. It told how even so, numerous brave Turkish historians and intellectuals are presently pushing for the sordid truth to be revealed !

Actually, the program said that a few years ago, following representations and irrefutable evidence presented to America by the Armenian people, the US Congress was on the verge of formally recognising the event as genocide / holocaust, but on the last moment failed to do so, subsequent to massive pressure from two countries, and TWO countries only ! Who WERE those two countries ? One, understandably was Turkey, but surprise surprise, and I would have never guessed it, the other was ... ISRAEL !!!

Damn - this is strange !!! Having being hitherto unaware of the modern day politics of this matter, as soon as I heard this, I was dumbfounded. The program went some way into showing how Turkey and the Zionist government of Israel, stand as the ONLY opposition to this cause. But why ? Why Israel ? Is it not abundantly aware of it's own holocaust ? Does it think it has cornered the market on holocausts ? What about the holocaust denial laws that it has successfully pushed for, and brought about in some countries ? The sheer hypocrisy of this is just breathtaking, and in my opinion, lends weight to the proposition that Israel has exaggerated it's own holocaust out of all proportion. Oh well, business is business I suppose !

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-10-12 02:05am

.....holy shit....I never even heard of this thing.....that's fucked up, man....that's just fucked up....

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-10-12 02:22am

Well, if those Christians were anything like the Nazi's, and gods know christians of that time were damn Nazi-ish, then they deserved every little thing they got.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-10-12 02:27am

You miserable bastard! Are you insane! NO ONE deserves that shit! Tell that to all the babies they butchered like animals! Tell that to the pregnant women! You sick fuck!

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-10-12 03:06am

I should also add that I've read a few sites about this Armenian Christian Holocaust and discovered that this happened over a long course of time. Longer than the Holocaust of WWII.

Miscellaneous sites:

http://holytrinity.ok.goarch.org/Intere ... caust.html
http://www.fr-d-serfes.org/orthodox/memoryof.htm
http://www.saeamerica.org/news/english082197.html
http://groong.usc.edu/fisk.html
http://www.armenianholocaust.com/
http://www.dailyillini.com/apr01/apr24/ ... er02.shtml
http://kurdistan.org/Current-Updates/arm.holocaust.html
http://www.umd.umich.edu/dept/armenian/ ... ocide.html

You will find that the Christians were NOT Nazi-ish as kojikun claims they might have been. They were in fact comparable to how the Jews were treated in Germany; they were persecuted for no real reason other than racism.

EDIT: racism and as a scapegoat for the decline of the Ottoman Empire.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-12 09:21am

kojikun wrote:Well, if those Christians were anything like the Nazi's, and gods know christians of that time were damn Nazi-ish, then they deserved every little thing they got.

Shut the fuck up you bastard. Those people didn't deserve that, not in the least.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2002-10-12 09:37am

it´s still not comparable to the holcaust in germany.

even if the number of 1,6 milllion is correct it´s still not nearly as many as the 6 million jews.

the german jews were not against germany they were killed for being jewish.
the armenians as far as i know wanted an own country, joined the russian army in large numbers to fight against turkey and were killed for that.

that doesnt justify this genocide of course
but it´s in no way the same as the holocaust.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2002-10-12 12:55pm

Do you know what Hitler said about the Armenian Genocide?

"Who now remembers the Armenians?"

He was right. No one remembers the Armenians.

And kojikun; you have crossed the line between being merely critical of Christianity and being a flat-out anti-Christian bigot.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-12 01:19pm

I've heard of this before.

In history class we were talking about massacres and this came up.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-10-12 02:49pm

Anti-Christian? My boyfriends Christian you fucking idiot. Try reading my post again. Most christians from that era were racist antisemites who were very much full of hatred. Anyone like that deserves to be killed, period, end of story.

Now, if you'd like to use your brain, you'd realise I said _IF_.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-10-12 03:00pm

The problem being, more recent studies have placed the number of those killed at fewer than 500,000, still a whole fucking lot though.

And the Armenians had been waging a major active campaign against Turkish forces long before the Turks finally scraped up enough troops to pacify the area, which was accomplished mostly by killing everyone anywhere they found weapons and sending everyone else to northern Iraq.

This is a case of a brutal suppression of rebellion, not a mindless genocide.

kojikun however is utterly full of shit.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-10-12 03:50pm

Anti-Christian? My boyfriends Christian you fucking idiot. Try reading my post again. Most christians from that era were racist antisemites who were very much full of hatred. Anyone like that deserves to be killed, period, end of story.

Now, if you'd like to use your brain, you'd realise I said _IF_ .

So you're saying that these people:

"Stories of young male children - 5, 10, 15 year olds, being herded into enclosures with several death squad members systematically going round and poking kabab skewers into their eyes - for sport, prior to shooting them, burning them, or burying them alive. Or the slight variation to this ... their eyes being pushed in by fingertip and crushed garlic being inserted into the chasm resulting in unspeakable agony to the sufferer."

"Stories of pregnant women being disemboweled and having their unborn ripped out of them, and used as soccer balls or tossed around on bayonets."

deserved it? You sadistic asshole! You're no better than the Nazis!

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-10-12 04:26pm

kojikun wrote:Well, if those Christians were anything like the Nazi's, and gods know christians of that time were damn Nazi-ish, then they deserved every little thing they got.

Shut the fuck up asstard. You do not understand that
A. no they weren't
B. little children do not deserve death.
C. These people were actually killed so the ottoman empire could steal their land.

Interestingly not, one of the nazi politicians who proposed the 'final soloution' said "who now remembers the Armenians."

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-10-12 11:31pm

Ok true enough, the kids didn't deserve any of it (not that any of them did). As I said, if they weren't assholes, then it was horrible, but if they were well, thats too bad.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2002-10-12 11:34pm

Atrocities on the scale of the Armenian holocaust have happened many, many times. Look at Cambodia! The Nazi Holocaust was notable for its sheer scale: 11 million people (6 million Jews, 5 million Slavs), hence its much greater prominence.

I don't see that as a double-standard. No one is actually covering it up; it was the typical result of a dirty local religious war. Throughout history, it has always been the zealot who has demonstrate the greatest capacity for cruelty. Nothing changes in this regard.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2002-10-13 09:06am

AdmiralKanos wrote:Atrocities on the scale of the Armenian holocaust have happened many, many times. Look at Cambodia! The Nazi Holocaust was notable for its sheer scale: 11 million people (6 million Jews, 5 million Slavs), hence its much greater prominence.

That's nothing compared to what the Soviet Union can be blamed for.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-10-13 12:51pm

The Cambodian Holocaust was, in my eyes, one of the most inexcusable. American forces were actually fighting in the country, and then decided to pull out because they had taken what the American people considered heavy casualties (about ten thousand casualties over a few years). Then, within DAYS, more than a million Cambodian people had been executed by Pol Pot and his regime. Thousands of others were in prison, being tortured for no reason.

Many holocausts in the past have been notable only for their scale. It is a sad fact of humanity that we are willing to allow things like this to happen to our neighbors and sometimes our friends without putting ourselves on the line to help them.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2002-10-13 12:57pm

Master of Ossus wrote:The Cambodian Holocaust was, in my eyes, one of the most inexcusable. American forces were actually fighting in the country, and then decided to pull out because they had taken what the American people considered heavy casualties (about ten thousand casualties over a few years). Then, within DAYS, more than a million Cambodian people had been executed by Pol Pot and his regime. Thousands of others were in prison, being tortured for no reason.

Many holocausts in the past have been notable only for their scale. It is a sad fact of humanity that we are willing to allow things like this to happen to our neighbors and sometimes our friends without putting ourselves on the line to help them.

The problem here is the law of unintended consequences. Take WWII, for example; sure, we saved anywhere from thousands to millions of people from genocide under the Nazis, but in doing do we guaranteed that the Soviet Union would survive to tyrannize and slaughter the people of its own country and of most of Eastern Europe for a half-century.

Post by **Steve** » 2002-10-13 01:52pm

I've always said that, when it comes to massacres, the Communists went for quantity of death, the racists/fascists went for "quality" of death (ie more painful and cruel).

Which is why they should all rot in Hell, forced to listen to Barney the Dinosaur sing for all eternity!

MWAHAHAHA!

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-13 01:55pm

Steve wrote:I've always said that, when it comes to massacres, the Communists went for quantity of death, the racists/fascists went for "quality" of death (ie more painful and cruel).

Which is why they should all rot in Hell, forced to listen to Barney the Dinosaur sing for all eternity! MWAHAHAHA!

A fate truly worse than death. Much much worse.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2002-10-13 01:58pm

Steve wrote:I've always said that, when it comes to massacres, the Communists went for quantity of death, the racists/fascists went for "quality" of death (ie more painful and cruel).

Which is why they should all rot in Hell, forced to listen to Barney the Dinosaur sing for all eternity! MWAHAHAHA!

I don't know, the Gulag Archipelago was easily on terms with some of the Nazi death camps.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-10-13 04:44pm

What about Mao's policies? He starved about 20 million people to with them!

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-10-13 06:09pm

The problem here is the law of unintended consequences. Take WWII, for example; sure, we saved anywhere from thousands to millions of people from genocide under the Nazis, but in doing do we guaranteed that the Soviet Union would survive to tyrannize and slaughter the people of its own country and of most of Eastern Europe for a half-century.

Too bad we didn't let Patton move on to Russia...

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-10-13 06:50pm

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:
The problem here is the law of unintended consequences. Take WWII, for example; sure, we saved anywhere from thousands to millions of people from genocide under the Nazis, but in doing do we guaranteed that the Soviet Union would survive to tyrannize and slaughter the people of its own country and of most of Eastern Europe for a half-century.
Too bad we didn't let Patton move on to Russia...

Such a war would have resulted in most of the Soviet Union starveing through at least one winter. Leningrad scaled to the whole Union..

I doubt that would have saved any lives, In Russia and the warsaw pact anyway. On the world stage though, we mighth vae seen a much lower death toll for the next couple decades.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2002-10-14 03:22am

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:What about Mao's policies? He starved about 20 million people to with them!

I never heard of that. However, I heard of Stalin's regime killing 30 million people.