Patriot PAC-3; the same bullshit as PAC-2.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-02-08 09:16am

Link 1

Link 2

"No no, Patriot PAC-3 is fine and dandy, we're very satisfied with it, lalalalala we can't hearrrrrrrrrr youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu"

Fixed link ~Bean

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2004-02-08 10:34am

Didn't a F-15 destroy a Patriot with a HARM after it had locked on and was going to fire last year?

RadiO · Post by **RadiO** » 2004-02-08 03:17pm

The Tornado was actually flying as part of a two-ship. The crew of the second Tornado saw the missile come straight past them and hit their wingman.
What are the chances of both aircraft having IIF failures? Or both crews forgetting to activate their transponders? Slim to none, I'd say.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2004-02-08 03:19pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Didn't a F-15 destroy a Patriot with a HARM after it had locked on and was going to fire last year?

It was an F-16 if I recall correctly, we lost an F-15 during the main fighting, I don't recall if they ever figured out how it went down.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-02-08 04:12pm

Most if not all of the target ID problems seem to have occurred when the system was switched into automatic mode, in the case of the Tornado the firing unit's crew had just taken cover because they where being shelled.

As for all the radar ghosts, I wonder if anyone has checked out the possibility that jamming from friendly aircraft was doing it. There where a fuckload of EW aircraft running around Iraq and generating false radar returns and tracks is a very common tactic.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-02-09 03:36am

TrailerParkJawa wrote:
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Didn't a F-15 destroy a Patriot with a HARM after it had locked on and was going to fire last year?
It was an F-16 if I recall correctly, we lost an F-15 during the main fighting, I don't recall if they ever figured out how it went down.

I think it was a F/A 18 destroyed over baghdad by a SAM. The pilot was killed.

Macross · Post by **Macross** » 2004-02-09 05:28am

For a moment there, I thought this thread was going to be about the Patriot Act.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-02-09 09:03am

The PAC-3 designation was enough for me to realize this was about the Patriot missile.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-02-09 03:37pm

evilcat4000 wrote:
I think it was a F/A 18 destroyed over baghdad by a SAM. The pilot was killed.

No it was an F-15E, and it went down north of the city. It was most likely hit by a Roland SAM.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-02-10 02:04am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
evilcat4000 wrote:
I think it was a F/A 18 destroyed over baghdad by a SAM. The pilot was killed.
No it was an F-15E, and it went down north of the city. It was most likely hit by a Roland SAM.

Must be bad reporting by BBC then. They confused the F/A 18 with F-15E.

Shaidar Haran · Post by **Shaidar Haran** » 2004-02-10 02:35am

Just one question for some one less knowledgable about military hardwar, but why is the Patriot being targeted in this? Friendly Fire happens so why the bashing?

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-02-10 02:39am

Sea Skimmer wrote:Most if not all of the target ID problems seem to have occurred when the system was switched into automatic mode, in the case of the Tornado the firing unit's crew had just taken cover because they where being shelled.

As for all the radar ghosts, I wonder if anyone has checked out the possibility that jamming from friendly aircraft was doing it. There where a fuckload of EW aircraft running around Iraq and generating false radar returns and tracks is a very common tactic.

Aren't they supposed to leave a few freqs clear for friendly use?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-02-10 10:57pm

Shaidar Haran wrote:Just one question for some one less knowledgable about military hardwar, but why is the Patriot being targeted in this? Friendly Fire happens so why the bashing?

Its being attacked because unlike infantrymen or tanks aircraft do have electronic IFF devices which Patriot should identify. But you are right, friendly fire does happen and air defenses have never been immune to it, actually extremely prone is more like it. Everywhere from the Soviet shoot down of Power's U-2 to Pacific carrier battles you'll find friendly fire, and the reverse for that matter. More then one target has been struck by planes first identified as friendly, thus giving rise to an unofficial motto for SAM and AAA units, "shoot 'em down; sort 'em out on the ground"

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-02-10 11:06pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Aren't they supposed to leave a few freqs clear for friendly use?

There are only so many frequencies and both sides may end up using the same ones, that got to be a massive problem for NATO and Warsaw Pact forces in Germany. Patriot radar is also frequency agile IIRC, which makes things even more difficult for the poor little jamming pod's software.

Mlenk · Post by **Mlenk** » 2004-02-10 11:40pm

Macross wrote:For a moment there, I thought this thread was going to be about the Patriot Act.

Same here. I was getting all pissed off already.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-02-10 11:40pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:There are only so many frequencies and both sides may end up using the same ones, that got to be a massive problem for NATO and Warsaw Pact forces in Germany. Patriot radar is also frequency agile IIRC, which makes things even more difficult for the poor little jamming pod's software.

Plus, as various descriptions of air-defenses have noted, the shooters don't really know WTF is going on.

And bwahaha, fear the mighty Bomarc!

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-02-10 11:52pm

phongn wrote:
And bwahaha, fear the mighty Bomarc!

10-kiloton detonations wouldn't have been favorable to coalition aircraft flying bombing sorties, which makes me wonder if Bomarc had an SSM capability. I wouldn't put it past the designers to at least have considered shipping as a possibul target.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-02-10 11:56pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:10-kiloton detonations wouldn't have been favorable to coalition aircraft flying bombing sorties, which makes me wonder if Bomarc had an SSM capability. I wouldn't put it past the designers to at least have considered shipping as a possibul target.

Well, if you could give SAGE the data on where the target is, I'm sure that you could more or less hit whatever you wanted.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-02-10 11:58pm

To confuse a frigging plane with a TBM? I can buy a cruise missile if the weapon was flying low and straight, but a TBM? Don't those classification algorithms at least have speed measurement? Can't they see a Mach 0.85 straight flying target ain't no TBM?

Curious.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-02-11 12:00am

phongn wrote: Well, if you could give SAGE the data on where the target is, I'm sure that you could more or less hit whatever you wanted.

Its no fun unless the terminal radar seeker locks on though.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-02-11 12:34am

Sea Skimmer wrote:Its no fun unless the terminal radar seeker locks on though.

Could they command-fuse it? It's only 10 kT but even a near-miss might screw up a ship.

Worlds Spanner · Post by **Worlds Spanner** » 2004-02-11 12:58am

TrailerParkJawa wrote:...we lost an F-15 during the main fighting, I don't recall if they ever figured out how it went down.

Shit, is that true? Isn't that the first confirmed loss of an F-15 to enemy action EVER? (I don't count the IAF F-15 that went down a while back since I vauguely recall some controversy over if it was due to enemy action or not, and it wasn't a USAF plane anyway.)

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-02-11 12:59am

phongn wrote: Could they command-fuse it? It's only 10 kT but even a near-miss might screw up a ship.

I'd assume that could be done, though I've never seen any mention on what its fusing system was. The good old impact, proximity, command combination was pretty popular around this time, but then I wouldn't be surprised if command denotation was the only fusing option for the nuke Bomarc's.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Patriot PAC-3; the same bullshit as PAC-2.

Patriot PAC-3; the same bullshit as PAC-2.

How is it possible?