Nerve Gases and the Federation

CRUCIBLE · Post by **CRUCIBLE** » 2004-02-01 06:01pm

YT300000 wrote:
Darth Garden Gnome wrote:The Imperials don't seem to be very fond of chemical agents, perhaps because any old fool with a military breathmask can negate them.
Imperial Spec-Ops units love chem weaps. Grunts don't use them, because they are somewhat costly, and there are countless quadrillions of low level troops. Sure, putting on a mask will save you from most chemical agents, but can you have one completely pulled out of your utility belt, on your face, turned on and working in under two seconds? No? Then you're already dead, with an FEX-M3, and with T-238 you get dizzy after half a minute, and possibly black out.

And that makes fighting a little bit difficult.

Also, you might vomit into the mask, and suffocate.

The real problem is, that only very few modern (these days) Nerve Gases are delivered via inhalation but via touch. So a breathmask is worth about nothing if you cant cover all skin in less then 10 secs. Bt i dunno how the SW Gases are delivered.

Todays 1st. World Infantry is at least carrying 3 to 5 shots of slowing agents against Nerve Gas (effective only against the most common ones).

Again a bad Feddie example of equipping troops. If you dont have a permanent NBC, then at least ANY other kind of protection.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-02-01 10:21pm

Naughty...

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-02-09 12:38am

Why do we try to compare Federation "troops" with stormies (very lopsided matchup)? It'd be much more fun to compare them with modern armed forces (because it truly reveals how pathetic the feddies are)...

Okay, lets see. Take DW's scenario above, and replace the E-web with a .50cal HMG or a 40mm AGL. Wait, fuck that. We could go all the way down to a 7.62mm GPMG. Do we get different results? not from a purely win-lose perspective: the feddies get slaughtered (assuming there's enough ammo on hand to cover 1,000 feddies).

It'd be more fun for Klingons, who are even more incompetant than feddies...

The potential scenarios are endless...

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-02-09 01:36am

The Kernel wrote:
Nope, in fact a modern VX or Sarin gas attack would kill them just as effectively. Better if it were an air burst since they wouldn't even see it coming.

Real life nerve agents are invisible in the first place. If you saw or felt anything it would just be some wet drops raining down, if that happens you're beyond fucked. Though if someone actually released enough Sarin or VX to get a big WW1 style rolling cloud (course it would still be invisible) you'd also be really fucking screwed.

CRUCIBLE · Post by **CRUCIBLE** » 2004-02-09 05:15am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
The Kernel wrote:
Nope, in fact a modern VX or Sarin gas attack would kill them just as effectively. Better if it were an air burst since they wouldn't even see it coming.
Real life nerve agents are invisible in the first place. If you saw or felt anything it would just be some wet drops raining down, if that happens you're beyond fucked. Though if someone actually released enough Sarin or VX to get a big WW1 style rolling cloud (course it would still be invisible) you'd also be really fucking screwed.

Yep, the 10 secs to <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=co ... ">cover</a> your skin i mentioned earlier, depends on how much knowledge you have about the weapons fired or the Gas carrier was misfired and didnt go up at your feet, so you have some (most are drilled to 10 sec, but you know, wind and such) warning.

CRUCIBLE · Post by **CRUCIBLE** » 2004-02-09 05:17am

??? how the fuq was the http line inserted into my post ???

It should just read to cover your skin

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-02-09 09:45am

Split because someone isn't reading the fucking annoucements

EDIT: Because Walper is spamming and I made a slight mistake

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-02-09 10:17am

Ghost Rider wrote:Split because someone is reading the fucking annoucements

Umm...Ghost Rider? Isn't someone reading the annoucements a good thing? I mean, normally you mods complain because people don't. You mods are so hard to please!

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-02-09 10:19am

Robert Walper wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Split because someone is reading the fucking annoucements
Umm...Ghost Rider? Isn't someone reading the annoucements a good thing? I mean, normally you mods complain because people don't. You mods are so hard to please!

I haven't my coffee.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-02-09 10:20am

*kicks shin under the table* Quite, Walper.

Lancer · Post by **Lancer** » 2004-02-09 04:14pm

CRUCIBLE wrote:
YT300000 wrote:
Darth Garden Gnome wrote:The Imperials don't seem to be very fond of chemical agents, perhaps because any old fool with a military breathmask can negate them.
Imperial Spec-Ops units love chem weaps. Grunts don't use them, because they are somewhat costly, and there are countless quadrillions of low level troops. Sure, putting on a mask will save you from most chemical agents, but can you have one completely pulled out of your utility belt, on your face, turned on and working in under two seconds? No? Then you're already dead, with an FEX-M3, and with T-238 you get dizzy after half a minute, and possibly black out.

And that makes fighting a little bit difficult.

Also, you might vomit into the mask, and suffocate.
The real problem is, that only very few modern (these days) Nerve Gases are delivered via inhalation but via touch. So a breathmask is worth about nothing if you cant cover all skin in less then 10 secs. Bt i dunno how the SW Gases are delivered.

Todays 1st. World Infantry is at least carrying 3 to 5 shots of slowing agents against Nerve Gas (effective only against the most common ones).

Again a bad Feddie example of equipping troops. If you dont have a permanent NBC, then at least ANY other kind of protection.

Your forgetting about magic hyposprays that protect against radiation, biological, and chemical agents.

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2004-02-09 04:52pm

About the nerve gas antidote. Why the hell is everyone convinced that you should take it in the HEART?

When I was in the army the ABC (Atomic,Bio,Chemical) orientation instructed us to pick up one of the autoinjectors from the RIGHT leg pocket inject it in the leg and put the spent cap in the breast pocket.

Is the Bioantidote into the heart a brainbug from the us media?

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2004-02-09 04:56pm

Chemical not BIO DOH!

D.Turtle · Post by **D.Turtle** » 2004-02-09 04:59pm

Probably a brainbug coming from the movie "The Rock".

Either it originated there, or (more likely) "The Rock" just continued this brainbug.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-02-10 09:23am

Faram wrote:About the nerve gas antidote. Why the hell is everyone convinced that you should take it in the HEART?

When I was in the army the ABC (Atomic,Bio,Chemical) orientation instructed us to pick up one of the autoinjectors from the RIGHT leg pocket inject it in the leg and put the spent cap in the breast pocket.

Is the Bioantidote into the heart a brainbug from the us media?

Probably so.

And I hate the size of that needle.*shudder*

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-02-10 04:37pm

Intramuscular injection could be used for two reasons:
a) the drug is a suspension (it's oily), which I am quite sure it's not.
b) it is easier than i.v. injection
Drugs that are injected into a muscle take longer to have an effect than drugs injected into a vein, so it could be better to inject the antidote directly into the heart to counter a fast-acting poison. Just a thought.

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2004-02-10 04:50pm

GySgt. Hartman wrote:Intramuscular injection could be used for two reasons:
a) the drug is a suspension (it's oily), which I am quite sure it's not.
b) it is easier than i.v. injection
Drugs that are injected into a muscle take longer to have an effect than drugs injected into a vein, so it could be better to inject the antidote directly into the heart to counter a fast-acting poison. Just a thought.

Yea pehaps. But try to stab this thingy thro the ribcage and hit the heart:

Keep in mind that it will probebly be battlefield conditions at the moment.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-02-10 04:55pm

Yes, a demonstration would be nice....

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2004-02-10 05:06pm

Tribun wrote:Yes, a demonstration would be nice....

I am sure you can steal it somwhere but atropine is not good for you.

Anyway

First pull the red safty.

Then twist the body.

Now it's armed

Press the yellow part against the leg and hit it on the top.

Wola congrats you might live.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-02-10 06:51pm

Faram wrote: Yea pehaps. But try to stab this thingy thro the ribcage and hit the heart:

[pic]

Keep in mind that it will probebly be battlefield conditions at the moment.

That is why they use i.m. injections. Because you have more important things to teach to soldiers than injection techniques.

I wrote:b) it is easier than i.v. injection

If you have a specialist who is able to administer the antidote correctly into the heart, why shouldn't he? If that is more effective, that is.
And, of course, he would be issued the equioment to do so.

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2004-02-10 06:58pm

GySgt. Hartman wrote:If you have a specialist who is able to administer the antidote correctly into the heart, why shouldn't he? If that is more effective, that is.
And, of course, he would be issued the equioment to do so.

I am sure that it would be more effective, the problem is that at the time you can meet a specialis you are dead.

One of the nasty features of the chemical agent is that they kill and fast.

Our traing had the goal that at no time should it take longer than 8seconds to get the gasmask on your face secure it and confirm that it's tight.

The gasmask and the gun was the only thing that we never left anywhere for any reason while on training.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2004-02-10 09:03pm

Ah, I remember this. From an ancient debate (months old).

CRUCIBLE wrote:
YT300000 wrote:
Darth Garden Gnome wrote:The Imperials don't seem to be very fond of chemical agents, perhaps because any old fool with a military breathmask can negate them.
Imperial Spec-Ops units love chem weaps. Grunts don't use them, because they are somewhat costly, and there are countless quadrillions of low level troops. Sure, putting on a mask will save you from most chemical agents, but can you have one completely pulled out of your utility belt, on your face, turned on and working in under two seconds? No? Then you're already dead, with an FEX-M3, and with T-238 you get dizzy after half a minute, and possibly black out.

And that makes fighting a little bit difficult.

Also, you might vomit into the mask, and suffocate.
The real problem is, that only very few modern (these days) Nerve Gases are delivered via inhalation but via touch. So a breathmask is worth about nothing if you cant cover all skin in less then 10 secs. Bt i dunno how the SW Gases are delivered.

The sourcebooks and such make no mention of skin kills, but I'd assume that the gasses effects would probably propagate that way as well.

Todays 1st. World Infantry is at least carrying 3 to 5 shots of slowing agents against Nerve Gas (effective only against the most common ones).

Well, if the Feddie's serums magically completely protect them from the gas in an FEX-M3, the Imperials can switch agents, and use, for instance, FGA-583 (a stun gas). Or just chuck a plank gas grenade, and laugh while the red shirts corrode.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-02-11 02:17am

The tricorders carried by Feddies might prove useful in detecting a chemical attack before it hurts them.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-02-11 07:18am

Faram wrote: I am sure that it would be more effective, the problem is that at the time you can meet a specialis you are dead.

I am talking about the case where you are the specialist. We were talking about "the Rock", right?

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-02-11 07:33am

GySgt. Hartman wrote: I am talking about the case where you are the specialist. We were talking about "the Rock", right?

You still has to measure your ribcage so that you won't hit bone. Indeed, that was what the CBW expert told us that the Rock was a piece of bull. Why waste time fumbling for your heart when a muscle will do just fine, especially when one remembers that the first effects of most nerve gas is your body starts dancing the Macarena. Hell, isn't it supposed to be your buddy who injects you in the first place?