The soldier who refuses to fight

[Faram]

www.globeandmail.ca

This one pisses me off. Why the hell did he join the army?

He wanted the cash for an education but not uphold his part of the bargin.

that he enlisted to get an education, not to kill people.

Well doh what the hell did he think an army do?

I mean he fucking volenteerd. Noone forced him.

[Colonel Olrik]

He didn't desire to go to war after 9/11 because his intellect had reached the conclusion that the attacks were America's fault..

Cowardly bastard.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Treasonous bastard. He should be shot, in my opinion.

[Vympel]

The Army is not a university. Is this what shit the "Army of One" crap produces?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

The Army is not a university. Is this what shit the "Army of One" crap produces?

Must be. I knew that campaign was going to be a bad idea. I just knew it...

[Sarevok]

True but Americas actions in Iraq are moraly objectionable. It would be no surprise if some soldiers refuse to serve in Iraq.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

That is debatable.

But anyway, it doesn't matter. They volunteer, then they serve. Opinions don't mean shit when you're ordered to fight by your government.

[Thinkmarble]

He signed up.
He thought up it
He changed his opinion about killing.
What's so difficult to grasp ?.

[GySgt. Hartman]

It says he enlisted to get an education, but the text sounds like he changed his mind while in the army.

In July, 2001, Mr. Hinzman finished training and was posted to Fort Bragg.
[...]
Mr. Fager recalls that Mr. Hinzman didn't rush into applying for conscientious objector (CO) status. "He had philosophical issues to work through." And Mr. Hinzman says he felt "conflicted." He liked his job. He was a good soldier. But he didn't want to kill.

Finally, on Aug. 2, 2002, he asked to be transferred, as a conscientious objector,to non-combat duties.

If he enlisted with the decision to desert if he had to fight, he should be jailed.
If he enlisted and then grew up to be a different person, they should have transferred him to non-combat duties or discharged him. If that is the case, then he was right in running away before he would be forced to kill someone.
He couldn't have known that he would change that way when he enlisted, so he is not at fault.

I think that many people enlist in the armed forces because they see it as their only chance to get a good education, but don't consider what it really means to be a soldier. I think recruiters should work to clear that up.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I think it's pretty clear from the start.

[Montcalm]

[recruitment ad]If you`re afraid to kill don`t join the arny[recruitment ad]

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I highly doubt that even the army--or even the Marines for that matter (well, we had to put that jibe in there)--recruits people stupid enough to need to be told in a recruitment add that they may have to kill people should they join said organization. It's one of the most obvious things in the history of civilization, and about just as old.

[Col. Crackpot]

What the hell did he think would happen in the ARMY? It's not the fucking boy scouts. Did he miss the life sized posters of automatic weapons and tanks st the recruitment office? No, i think he's just a rabble-rouser. If he had issues with killing before entering the service then he should have chosen to join the Coast Guard.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

If he enlisted with the decision to desert if he had to fight, he should be jailed.
If he enlisted and then grew up to be a different person, they should have transferred him to non-combat duties or discharged him. If that is the case, then he was right in running away before he would be forced to kill someone.
He couldn't have known that he would change that way when he enlisted, so he is not at fault.

I think that many people enlist in the armed forces because they see it as their only chance to get a good education, but don't consider what it really means to be a soldier. I think recruiters should work to clear that up.

1a) His initial motivation for joining up was not due to patriotism or any such ideal, but merely trying to cheat the Army out of $50000 for his college education.
1b) However, at the very beginning, he had no major objection to killing in combat. So I guess if the war occurred in that era, he'd be 'one of the grunts.' He probably won't make hero, but he'd probably shoot in the correct direction.
2a) Later, the guy changes his mind - he wimps out, to put it negatively. So he tries to renege.
2b) They even gave him a chance, and he wasn't good enough to convince them.
2c) So he becomes a traitor to his nation and tries to escape to Canada.

The man has no right to run away. This is not a conscript army and thus his commitment is solely voluntary. He also asked to be and became an paratrooper, a position that costs more to train than the average grunt, and is one of the more aggressive arms of the Army.

After that he expects to be able to renege on his deal because he changes his mind? What happened to the Contract Spirit? Forget that, what happened to the word "Commitment?" This man seems to think commitment is something to be broken because it suddenly became inconvenient for you.

I'm sorry, but the man should be tried for treason, and since he's going into at least a partial war zone, perhaps Desertion in the Face of the Enemy as well, and shot.

[Antares]

I would agree with the coward stuff, if the iraq was a real threat to the USA. Even if i never participated in the german army, i would fight for my own country, if it is threatened.

The argument "i wanted an education" seems also quite reasonable even if its unrealistic. For people that got now chance to find a normal job, signing up at the army often is some kind of a last hope deed.
This hope might great additional hopes for further improving ones life.

But i can agree with him, when he says, that he wont fight in a war that is not considered legal in most parts of the world.

A soldier has to obey orders, even if he doesnt like them, otherwise the hole army would fall apart.

"Kill that soldier, that is aiming a rifle at you"
Sounds like a quite reasonable order.

"Plant a mine there, therewith enemy soldiers run over it and go BOOM"
This one got an evil touch, but thats life in war.

"Fight the enemies who are threatening our country"
Sounds also good

"Fight the enemies of whom we decided, that they are threatening our country"
Still sounds good.

"Fight the enemies of whom we decided, that they are threatening our country but the whole world isnt supporting this point of view"
Hmm....

"Fight the enemies of whom we decided, that they are threatening our country but the whole world isnt supporting this point of view and kill several thousands of the enemies civilians by using cluster bombs, DU ammo, ... Destroying infrastrucute of the country will also cost several thousand civilian lifes due to lack of medical supply. Additional multi-thousand people will die after the official part of the war, cause our army wont be able to restore peace in the enemies land."
Well.... perhaps we should think about it.

"Kill your mother, cause you have signed to the army and have to obey any order given to you."
This is of course a ridicules order no one would obey.

But where's the border from which point on someone can no longer justify his own deeds? Would somebody who got a lot of friends in a country suddenly without any doubts fight this very country even if he knows that his friends will be on the others side?

Would you still call such a person who refuses fighting in such a situation be called a coward?

Where are YOUR limits? What reason would justify disobeying an order for YOU? No human got claim that he/she got no such limits.
So if there are such reasons you would want, that they are accepted even if they might seem irrational to others.

You claim your right to be accepted and the same right has everyone else. The only thing you have to do is accepting the possible consqeuences. But since your reason said, that the consequences of disobeying and order would be even more unbearable you decided that way.

The statement "He's a coward.... He should go to hell.... I hate him ..."
just shows, that one hasnt thought about the situation of this guy and also shows some tendency of intolerance.

Without any sort explanation why this guy is a coward i would even say such a comment is childish and dumb.

It's the same like calling my father an asshole cause he sometimes forgets what a father has to do for his children.

Every behaviour got its reasons and not considering them in an objective way is ingnorant and intolerant.

[Col. Crackpot]

I wonder what the Canadians will do. Mulroony would likely have tossed him out on his ass, and Cretien would have let the little fuckwad stay. I don't know too much about Paul Martin. It's not like Vietnam. THOUSANDS who pulled this back then..... but this guy is not a draftee, he's a volunteer. <sigh> Any of the board's Canadians want to weigh in? So you want to deport him?

[Col. Crackpot]

<snip>

Four simple words solve your moral dilemma DON'T. JOIN. THE. ARMY.

[Chris OFarrell]

I'm of two minds about this situation.

Firstly he joined the army specifically because he couldn't find work, that after four years he would leave the army with all the benefits and a nice 50,000 cheque for college. It does appear that he had doubts about joining the military which lead into questions about his motives, but not to the point he has now. It looks like after 9/11 he got involved with groups that basically moved him more and more to the position that he didn't want to get involved in the war because he strongly felt it was morally unjustifiable.

Which I can understand. I also don't blame him for the fact that his apparent request for a transfer got lost in the probably chaos in the leadup to the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq and that he just thought he had a moral objection to the war and while he didn't want to leave and still was willing to serve, he wanted to do so in a non combat way.


But on the other hand...he joined the military knowing FULL WELL what he was going to be getting into. Its clear that he only thought of it as a cash card for him to use after a four year stint, as a springboard to later life if you will. Which is stupidity of the highest order. Over here and I'm sure in the US, you get the fact all but beaten into your head that if you join up, there is a good chance you will be required to ship to some miserable hellhole for murky reasons to take another humans life. Period. That you are joining an organisation, that for all its nice fringe benefits, is a tool of the Government used to apply deadly force. This guy was freaked out over the fact that in boot camp they were trying to turn you into an obedient killing machine? Hello, that is how an Army WORKS. They do NOT strip away your logical thought process or your ability to reason for yourself, but they do alter your mindset to instead of asking 'why' when they say 'Jump', you say 'How High?'. He joined for the fun of playing with guns and C4, then baulked when the Army was called up to DO ITS JOB. Tough luck.

This guy I think SHOULD have simply been discharged quietly. when his term of service was up after being sent to some crapass base somewhere. Not dishonourably, but with all the privileges he aspired to sponge off withdrawn from him and his Family as a result of his choice.

However fleeing to Canada and becoming a deserter...if he REALY belived so strongly, he should have accepted the frigen consequences of his actions rather then run away. Refused the direct order to ship out with his unit and accept that he would face a court martial / punishment for it as the price he paid. Running away just makes him a coward unable to take responsibility for his actions.

[Chris OFarrell]

Well.... perhaps we should think about it.

*snip*

Four simple words. Shit happens in war. War is not a fucking Ice Cream social. Its bloody, its messy, its horrible. The decision to go to war is not made lightly but UNLESS ITS CLEARLY AN ILLEGAL ORDER, you don't and can't refuse it.

It is not a Soldiers job to decide which orders to follow and which to not follow . Unless the order is CLEARLY illegal. Ordering a deployment to Iraq is not illegal, the rest of the word doesn't matter in the slightest. If the Commander in Cheif has given the order to move against Iraq, you do it unless there is a VERY VERY clear legal or moral reason not to. Neither was the case in Iraq.

Soldiers are paid, so when the horn sounds, they charge. Not to debate if they SHOULD or not. If they can't agree to this stipulation, don't fucking join the Military.

[Gil Hamilton]

I highly doubt that even the army--or even the Marines for that matter (well, we had to put that jibe in there)--recruits people stupid enough to need to be told in a recruitment add that they may have to kill people should they join said organization. It's one of the most obvious things in the history of civilization, and about just as old.

Marina, have you ever talked to recruiters recently? They purposely leave out any mention of having to actually fight for your country out of their discussions and literature entirely. In fact, the recruiter who was at my college recently was even talking about how the Army had all sorts of MOS that didn't see combat at all or even leave the country, but mostly pounded home the idea of all the potential benefits and college awards and what an adventure the Army is. It's no wonder now that so many people are going "But... but... I just joined up for the educational benefits!" That's because when the recruit talked him into joining, the recruit filled his head with the benefits and bullshit (I'm not being insulting to the Army, I greatly respect it, but their recruiters are trained bullshit artists) and downplayed the idea that have to go to war, because they aren't interested in informing the person that they might have to kill someone, but rather getting them down to MEPS for registration. Trust me, babe, I know. I filled out the card in highschool that said I was potentially interested in a hitch in the military, and it took me actually attempting to enlist in the military to get that particular recruiter to stop calling every month. God, I should make a list about some of the promises that that man made to try and get me down to a recruiting center.

Anyway, the point is that common sense stuff like "I might have to actually fight for my countries interests around the world! Am I ready to do that?" gets pushed down by "I could get up to 65,000 dollars for college thanks to the Montegomery GI Bill and the College Army Fund, just for spending four to six years having fun with tanks and guns and stuff! Whee!"

[Colonel Olrik]

Antares, read the article. The fucker didn't want to go to Afeghanistan because he believed 7/11 had been America's fault. Iraq's case is just an excuse, the man's a deluded, solipsistic coward full of selfrighteous shit.

[Gil Hamilton]

Oh, on the topic of hand. I agree with the Gunney Sargeant. If he joined up to desert at the first chance he had to fight, jail his ass. If he honestly had a moment where he realized in good consciousness that he couldn't kill someone, move him out of the infantry. But it sounds alot like the former to me.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Anyway, the point is that common sense stuff like "I might have to actually fight for my countries interests around the world! Am I ready to do that?" gets pushed down by "I could get up to 65,000 dollars for college thanks to the Montegomery GI Bill and the College Army Fund, just for spending four to six years having fun with tanks and guns and stuff! Whee!"

Army = Thing that kills people, is something that anyone should be able to grasp. Not being weary of a recruiter's BS is showing a lack of common sense, but that isn't an excuse. Basically the only defence this guy has is "I'm a potential Darwin Award nominee," and even that fails, because he volunteered for paratroop duty.

Though I do agree that recruiting should be based upon appeals to patriotism, and it would probably get more and better recruits if it were, too.

[McC]

"Fight the enemies of whom we decided, that they are threatening our country but the whole world isnt supporting this point of view and kill several thousands of the enemies civilians by using cluster bombs, DU ammo, ... Destroying infrastrucute of the country will also cost several thousand civilian lifes due to lack of medical supply. Additional multi-thousand people will die after the official part of the war, cause our army wont be able to restore peace in the enemies land."
Well.... perhaps we should think about it.

Exactly when isn't this the case in war. Even if war is fought as cleanly as possible, civilians will still die. This is simply a fact of war. Civilians die. Crushing enemy infrastructure is a necessary tool to prevent an enemy from effectively fighting back. It's a sad truth that civilians are caught in the line of fire, but it's not unique. It's part of war.

"Kill your mother, cause you have signed to the army and have to obey any order given to you."
This is of course a ridicules order no one would obey.

Yeah, it's completely ridiculous...unless for whatever reason your mother is in posession of WMD that she plans to use to destroy American (or in your case German(?)) civilians. Then you better damn well either try to reason with her or shoot her. It's harsh, but there may be circumstances where the order isn't as unreasonable as you make it seem. Granted, it would probably haunt you for the rest of your life, but for this reason, I doubt that the army would make you do it. They would probably have one of your teammates do it.

[Gil Hamilton]

Army = Thing that kills people, is something that anyone should be able to grasp. Not being weary of a recruiter's BS is showing a lack of common sense, but that isn't an excuse. Basically the only defence this guy has is "I'm a potential Darwin Award nominee," and even that fails, because he volunteered for paratroop duty.

Though I do agree that recruiting should be based upon appeals to patriotism, and it would probably get more and better recruits if it were, too.

You realize that and I realize that, but you and I aren't the average college guy who's had his head filled to the top with the bullshit by a person who's entire job is to convince people to sign up for something that if they knew what it was actually like, they probably wouldn't sign the first place. Believe it or not, there are people that sign up with no idea what life in the Army is actually like and the idea that they may have to kill someone in the line of duty hasn't crossed their brains at all.

Incidently, appeals to patriotism don't get people to sign up, which is why the Army in particular has been pushing the benefits aspect and the great-adventure-that-makes-you-a-man aspect. It's about good marketing, and patriotism isn't a commodity.