The soldier who refuses to fight

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Kazuaki Shimazaki
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Antares...

Post by Kazuaki Shimazaki »

Antares wrote:But i can agree with him, when he says, that he wont fight in a war that is not considered legal in most parts of the world.
Sorry pal, that's not the way an Army works.
A soldier has to obey orders, even if he doesnt like them, otherwise the hole army would fall apart.
Yes, so why are you objecting?
"Fight the enemies of whom we decided, that they are threatening our country but the whole world isnt supporting this point of view"
Hmm....
Disclaimer: I do not particularly support the war in Iraq. I actually smile every time I hear on the local news that the US had failed to find substantive evidence of Chems and Bios yet again.

Your nation, in principle at least, has its own specific interests. Sometimes, specific interests don't match with global interests. You are serving your country, not the world.
"Fight the enemies of whom we decided, that they are threatening
That's just the EXACT same scenario as above. You just added natural war consequences. While Iraq isn't great right now, the devastation in a war could be much worse. Dresden, Hiroshima, and so on are testimony.

It seems to be only in these past 10-15 years that people have gotten so sensitive to every casualty. Before, people actually understand that war means deaths, planes downed and cities burned. Now, every bomb that happens to miss gets an article. Every dead soldier gets an article (in Vietnam, AFAIK they'd be lucky to get a one line slot in a little corner somewhere in a newspaper.)
But where's the border from which point on someone can no longer justify his own deeds? Would somebody who got a lot of friends in a country suddenly without any doubts fight this very country even if he knows that his friends will be on the others side?
I'm terribly sorry. But in the Army, you are expected to lay all that aside and act as a professional. ESPECIALLY if you volunteered.

This may sound cruel, but here's the truth. You joined to defend against 'all enemies, foreign and domestic.' (Different nations would have slightly different stuff but the basic cream would probably be similar.) The definition of enemy is always defined by your superiors and ultimately the government. Ultimately, Your only means of Defense is to Destroy.

There are really only two orders in an Army: "Destroy" and "Prepare to Destroy." A possible third would be "Preserve Ability to Destroy" (but that may just be a variant of the Preparation order) Every other order is some kind of variant of those two. These orders are issued by your superiors, who in turn had received more general, broad-reaching versions of those orders from his superiors.

When a subordinate's views disagree with a superior, ultimately, the subordinate must assume the superior knows better. While a good trooper should not create atrocities himself, in THEORY, a good trooper has to execute any order, up to and including an atrocity.

The only exception is when a superior of your superior has given you contradicting orders. In that case, follow the higher authority's orders to the best of your judgment and ability. That's ultimately why some orders are illegal.

If you aren't prepared to do that for your entire service period, don't volunteer. Especially don't volunteer just to get $50000, that's not even a step up from being a soldier for the pay.

That, as I understand it, is the basics of soldiering. It ain't pretty, but there it is.
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Post by Col. Crackpot »

Gil Hamilton wrote: You realize that and I realize that, but you and I aren't the average college guy who's had his head filled to the top with the bullshit by a person who's entire job is to convince people to sign up for something that if they knew what it was actually like, they probably wouldn't sign the first place. Believe it or not, there are people that sign up with no idea what life in the Army is actually like and the idea that they may have to kill someone in the line of duty hasn't crossed their brains at all. ;)
if that 'average college guy' isn't smart enough to know Army = thing that blows shit up and kills people, then he sure as hell isn't smart enough to be in college in the first place.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Col. Crackpot wrote:if that 'average college guy' isn't smart enough to know Army = thing that blows shit up and kills people, then he sure as hell isn't smart enough to be in college in the first place.
Since when does being smart have anything to do with being in college? Maybe I'm jaded, but for an institution of higher learning, there are a whole lot of idiots in colleges.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Gil, if they didn't know that, then either they were raised for 18 years in a basement cage or they're too stupid to even breathe.
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Post by Knife »

Part of civilized society is to honor previous commitments. By not doing so, his little personal campaign rings hollow and self rightious.

I don't advocate stringing the guy up but the goverment (if he is refused refugee status) should Dishonorably discharge his ass and put a garnish on his wages until he repays the cost of training him from boot camp to jump school.

Normally the goverment doesn't actively hunt down deserters, eventualy they pop up, but the way this weasle went about it, I'd make an example of him.
At first, he liked the army. He signed up for a paratroop regiment. He liked the camaraderie. He liked the idea of free housing and subsidized groceries. "Shooting rockets and machine guns and jumping out of planes, it's all fun until you start to think about the bigger picture and what it's all about."

Meaning an army's bottom-line purpose is to kill people. "Right. And the chants, that was disconcerting to me. I mean, you could play the game and yell it, but you could see that your fellow trainees were really getting into it . . . like they were totally losing their whole notion of self, turning into these little automatons. It was kind of frightening to me, but I pushed it to the back of my head. It was a pretty easy game to play."
[idiot trying to justify himself]I mean, I like all the free stuff I get and I like playing with the toys but......[/idiot trying to justify himself]

I don't think the goverment is responsible for morons who don't make the fundamental observation that the Army plays with guns and tanks so that they can kill other people.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by Darth Wong »

Col. Crackpot wrote:I wonder what the Canadians will do. Mulroony would likely have tossed him out on his ass, and Cretien would have let the little fuckwad stay. I don't know too much about Paul Martin. It's not like Vietnam. THOUSANDS who pulled this back then..... but this guy is not a draftee, he's a volunteer. <sigh> Any of the board's Canadians want to weigh in? So you want to deport him?
If it were up to me, I'd deport the little shit.

He entered into a contract, and is balking at being asked to hold up his end of the bargain. It's as simple as that, and his claim for refugee status is bullshit. He is not being persecuted; he is simply being asked to hold up his end of a bargain that he agreed to. It is ridiculously obvious that he joined the army figuring that the country would not go to war or that he would not be personally asked to go, and then when he realized he might actually have to serve, he had to cook up an excuse. It's total bullshit.
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Post by Solauren »

Deport the little bastard.

or look the other way as the Americans drag him back kicking and screaming
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Re: Antares...

Post by GySgt. Hartman »

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: ultimately, the subordinate must assume the superior knows better. While a good trooper should not create atrocities himself, in THEORY, a good trooper has to execute any order, up to and including an atrocity.
There are orders, such as shooting an unarmed civilian, that are clearly illegal and must not be followed. Ultimately you are responsible for your own actions, and "I did it because I was told to" is not an excuse.
That was established at the Nuremberg trials.
The only exception is when a superior of your superior has given you contradicting orders. In that case, follow the higher authority's orders to the best of your judgment and ability. That's ultimately why some orders are illegal.
Actually, you have to follow the last order that was given. If a general oders you to march to New York, and on you way you meet a colonel that orders you to mach to LA, you better go to LA.


It was stated that the guy decided he was a pacifist before he knew they were going to be deployed. To me that is an indication that he is honest about it. It is true that he is in breach of contract, so he probably should be brought to trial for it in the US, on the condition that he will not be killed.
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Post by General Zod »

uhh, they don't kill you for desertion in the US anymore, do they? i know that treason carries with it the death penalty, but desertion?
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Post by GySgt. Hartman »

If you listen to some of the people here, I wouldt be so sure.
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you will be a minister of death, praying for war." - GySgt. Hartman

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Post by Darth Raptor »

Darth_Zod wrote:uhh, they don't kill you for desertion in the US anymore, do they? i know that treason carries with it the death penalty, but desertion?
Yes, desertion in wartime is punishable by death.
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Chardok
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Post by Chardok »

Summary execution no less. Exacted by your unit commander. They can shoot you WHILE running away.

The Oath of Enlistment wrote:I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).
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Post by Nathan F »

Honestly, what happened to shooting deserters?

This guy has betrayed his brothers in arms and his nation.
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Post by Faram »

Shooting him seems excessive.

Don't know what punishment he deserve, but I know for sure that I would not want him in any outfit close to me.
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Post by Stormbringer »

Nathan F wrote:Honestly, what happened to shooting deserters?

This guy has betrayed his brothers in arms and his nation.
Shooting, I'd hang the little bastard. It seems abundantly clear that he joined up with the express intention of milking the system. When he found out it might not be a free ride he bailed. Clearly he knew damn well what he was getting into. You don't become Airborne and not realize you might kill some one. It's not like he became a cook or corpsman.
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Post by GySgt. Hartman »

Stormbringer wrote:Shooting, I'd hang the little bastard. It seems abundantly clear that he joined up with the express intention of milking the system. When he found out it might not be a free ride he bailed.
It looks like you read a different text. He joined the army to get an education, like hundreds of others did. That is exacly what recruiters play on.
Clearly he knew damn well what he was getting into.
Oh, you asked him?
You don't become Airborne and not realize you might kill some one. It's not like he became a cook or corpsman.
He decided he didn't want to kill before he knew about any assignments. Even paratroopers sometimes change their minds about things. It's not like jumping out of airplanes hinders intellectual growth. (I think.)

If his unit had been in battle, of even if they had only been stationed in Iraq or Afghanistan, and he had suddenly decided to become a pacifist, then things would be different. Besides, AFAIK the US is not at war with anyone.
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you will be a minister of death, praying for war." - GySgt. Hartman

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Post by Chardok »

GySgt. Hartman wrote:Oh, you asked him?
You obviously didn't read the goddamned oath of enlistment. Anyone the president says is an enemy, is an enemy. End of story. If your orders are to shoot to kill, you shoot to kill. (See the Oath of enlistment)

The guy KNEW what he was getting into, especially given that he was issued and trained in the use of several different WEAPON SYSTEMS (used to kill, maim and destroy people, places, and things, not used to explain the laws of thermodynamics [except maybe utilizing them..the laws, that is...]) if he didn't know what he was getting into, he should be shot for being a moron. He really DOES need an education. Nowhere in history does it talk about an ARMY doing anything but BREAKING shit. I don't recall seeing any mention about Rommel's enlightened brigade, or Hannibals "Highly educated centurions" indeed, such units would probably be defeated by the shockfront of laughter emanating from the opposing army.
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Post by Mr Bean »

Very simple
If you swear You Serve
If you Serve, You serve, your ass is ours as long as you Enlist and short of commiting crimes worthy of imprisionment you will serve to the best of your ability and preform your duties to the best of your abilities

End of story, The swear to serve is one of the simplest and farestest ranging contracts aviable today

Unless he wants to swear mental deficency there is no way he should get out of his enlistment(That or commit a crime and then lock him up)

Life or shot is what I'd prefer, Shot is what I'd like because its cheaper for the taxpayers

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Post by Stormbringer »

GySgt. Hartman wrote:It looks like you read a different text. He joined the army to get an education, like hundreds of others did. That is exacly what recruiters play on.
Yup, he did. Hence milk the system. :roll:
GySgt. Hartman wrote:Oh, you asked him?
It's obvious simply from the fact that he joined the 82nd Airborne. That reallly pretty much eliminates all doubt about him not thinking he'd potentially have to kill. The Airborne isn't a bunch of REMF.
GySgt. Hartman wrote:He decided he didn't want to kill before he knew about any assignments. Even paratroopers sometimes change their minds about things. It's not like jumping out of airplanes hinders intellectual growth. (I think.)
"They left just before his unit -- the second battalion of the 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment -- was shipped overseas. "

That sure as hell doesn't sound like not knowing his assignment to me.
GySgt. Hartman wrote:If his unit had been in battle, of even if they had only been stationed in Iraq or Afghanistan, and he had suddenly decided to become a pacifist, then things would be different. Besides, AFAIK the US is not at war with anyone.
He decided shortly before his unit left! And what the hell do you consider Afgahnistan or Iraq?
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Kazuaki Shimazaki
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Re: Antares...

Post by Kazuaki Shimazaki »

GySgt. Hartman wrote:There are orders, such as shooting an unarmed civilian, that are clearly illegal and must not be followed. Ultimately you are responsible for your own actions, and "I did it because I was told to" is not an excuse. That was established at the Nuremberg trials.
While the crimes of the senior leadership are obvious, IMHO, the part of the Nuremberg trials that tried soldiers trying to follow orders is ridiculous. What did the frigging Allies expect those soldiers to do? Refuse and get shot? Then another one is ordered to do the same thing? As the old saying goes, "Do it, or I'd find someone who will!"

How does that benefit either the victims (since I really doubt that nobody will eventually agree) or the soldiers or even the officers that gave the order?

You can't shoot an unarmed civilian, but you can drop bombs that kill hundreds of unarmed civilians (it is called strategic bombing.) Human morality is wierd. Right up to the Gulf War, people actually understand that war means civilian casualties.

Stuff like Nuremberg are fairly recent additions to the Army.
Actually, you have to follow the last order that was given. If a general oders you to march to New York, and on you way you meet a colonel that orders you to mach to LA, you better go to LA.
A Colonel can change that order, but what if the order was one of those called 'standing' orders that are supposed to last.
It looks like you read a different text. He joined the army to get an education, like hundreds of others did. That is exacly what recruiters play on.
Technically, that's wrong. At the very least, you should realize you may have to give something back on the President's whim. Even if the recruiters play on the benefits, if you are going in solely for the sake of the benefits, technically you are already milking the system - it doesn't matter if one or hundreds are doing it. You are basically gambling that there would be no war during your hitch. Well fella, you've LOST, and this one has upped the ante by asking to be Airborne. When you lose on the gambling table, you are expected to pay up.
Oh, you asked him?
If you joined the Airborne and didn't realize you were getting into a position where you may be ordered to kill people, you need help.

You asked to join the Airborne. The Army has already dumped thousands of dollars into your training. And you expect to be able to back out?
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

When you sign on the dotted line, you agree to the above text. End of story.
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Post by CelesKnight »

I agree that the recruiters are trying to sell you on joining. No recruiter is going to show you the horrors of war. However, that does not excuse his actions. By the time he was in Basic, he obviously knew that his duty involved killing. And, AFAIK, you can quit during Basic without having anything really bad on your record. He has no excuse.

The death penalty is clearly too extreme, if for no other reason then it would be fodder anti-military activists*. I would personally not like him to do prison time either—why put more money in his worthless ass? Instead, I’d try a dishonorable discharge, a fine, and a lot of community service.

*--To paraphrase Stalin, “A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths a statistic.” I suspect that the death of that one deserter, if played up enough be the media, would likely generate more hatred then the entire Iraq war.

On a somewhat related topic, what would you guys think if the US started a new service? Young people could volunteer to earn money for college. The earnings would be less than the military offers, but still be enough to pay most of the costs at a public university. In peacetime the volunteers would serve as a Peace Corp or AmeriCorp, with duties such as cleaning up parks, helping disadvantaged domestic neighborhoods, and helping third world nations. However, when needed, they would take over the duties of the military in non-conflict areas; hence freeing up the real soldiers to go into battle. If successful, the total number of people in the military would drop (since the peacniks like him wouldn’t be in it), but the military would be more mobile. In the end, I suspect that it would be a net loss for the military, but having more people going to college and having an workforce for public projects may be a gain for the country as a whole. Any comments?
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Post by Howedar »

You signed your life to the Army for a few years. That means you do what the fuck the Army tells you to do.

Throw his ass in jail at the least.
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Post by Darth Wong »

OK, let's think about this.

Question #1: Why do most people choose not to join the Army even though they'll pay for their education?
Answer: Because it is common knowledge that the price of this largesse is the possibility of going to fight.

Question #2: Would everyone milk the system if the precedent was set that one could get free university tuition and simply opt out of fighting with no penalty?
Answer: Hell, yes.

Question #3: What should be done with the deserter?
Answer: Throw his worthless free-lunch ass in jail.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

What about banishment, like deportation and revocation of his citizenship?
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