German Police Confiscate APC

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-02-12 04:43am

Admiral Valdemar wrote: Oh I've heard of him, sounded like he was one of those guys who thought Red Dawn was a documentary.

Actually, he's exactly like he sounds from all the articles I've read about him. He's the same as any other survivalist nut, only he has billions of dollars that Daddy left him. I mean, this guy doesn't just have tanks, he has huge safes full of automatic weapons tucked away in all parts of his house (including his opera hall the last time I was there).

At the very least though, the man does actually use his tanks from time to time. We saw him run over an old Volkswaggen once (he has a thing for crushing cars) and I see him driving his trailer with one of his tanks every now and then.

The city absolutely hates this guy because of the SCUD incident (aparently there was some disagreement as to what constitutes an "unarmed" missile) as well as his occasional jaunt with his tanks on asphalt roads which tears the shit out of them, although I'm told he doesn't do that anymore.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-02-12 04:57am

The Kernel wrote:
Actually, he's exactly like he sounds from all the articles I've read about him. He's the same as any other survivalist nut, only he has billions of dollars that Daddy left him. I mean, this guy doesn't just have tanks, he has huge safes full of automatic weapons tucked away in all parts of his house (including his opera hall the last time I was there).

At the very least though, the man does actually use his tanks from time to time. We saw him run over an old Volkswaggen once (he has a thing for crushing cars) and I see him driving his trailer with one of his tanks every now and then.

The city absolutely hates this guy because of the SCUD incident (aparently there was some disagreement as to what constitutes an "unarmed" missile) as well as his occasional jaunt with his tanks on asphalt roads which tears the shit out of them, although I'm told he doesn't do that anymore.

He runs these vehicles on a regular basis?!?!

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-02-12 05:00am

Stuart Mackey wrote: He runs these vehicles on a regular basis?!?!

Not really, most of them just sit there looking pretty. But he has a few that he puts through the paces every now and then. After all, what's the point of owning these things if you can't use them?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-02-12 07:13am

It's a pity he'd be an expanding cloud of vapour if we ever did get into the war he'd been stockpiling for. I never understand these guys, they must think Damnation Alley, The Postman and Mad Max was a guide for future living.

I hope he likes NBC stuff as well because those fancy guns and tanks don't work too well if the guy using them is spasming enough to break his bones due to VX or rotting due to Smallpox.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2004-02-12 07:16am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:It's a pity he'd be an expanding cloud of vapour if we ever did get into the war he'd been stockpiling for.

Well, it really depends on his distance from a major target. Most areas a decent distance away from cities of 50,000 or larger would come out just fine, except for the disruption of services, which he has presumably planned for.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-02-12 07:17am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:It's a pity he'd be an expanding cloud of vapour if we ever did get into the war he'd been stockpiling for.
Well, it really depends on his distance from a major target. Most areas a decent distance away from cities of 50,000 or larger would come out just fine, except for the disruption of services, which he has presumably planned for.

I'm betting he'd be in the city buying groceries when he hears the siren and goes "Oh shit! Must get home! Must get home!".

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-02-12 07:21am

The Kernel wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote: He runs these vehicles on a regular basis?!?!
Not really, most of them just sit there looking pretty. But he has a few that he puts through the paces every now and then. After all, what's the point of owning these things if you can't use them?

Oh, ok..well the point of owning such things is to preserve them..genrally.
Trouble is that if you run them you stuff them eventually.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-02-12 09:03am

German laws are pretty strict when it comes down to what is allowed on German roads, and what not.

I guess it is because an armoured vehicle can be pretty dangerous on a road with normal cars around, and can cause damage.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-02-12 10:55am

I heard about the SCUD TEL incident

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-02-12 11:18am

Dahak wrote:German laws are pretty strict when it comes down to what is allowed on German roads, and what not.

I guess it is because an armoured vehicle can be pretty dangerous on a road with normal cars around, and can cause damage.

Yep.
I remember a report about an incident in Australia. There an soldier had stolen an APC and than waltzed anything he encountered in the streets of Sidney flat. No injured, but that show the danger of armoured vehicles.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-02-12 11:22am

Tribun wrote:Yep.
I remember a report about an incident in Australia. There an soldier had stolen an APC and than waltzed anything he encountered in the streets of Sidney flat. No injured, but that show the danger of armoured vehicles.

There was an incident in the US where someone stole an M60 tank and more or less crushed everything in his path until he got stuck on a concrete divider or something.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-02-12 11:35am

phongn wrote:
Tribun wrote:Yep.
I remember a report about an incident in Australia. There an soldier had stolen an APC and than waltzed anything he encountered in the streets of Sidney flat. No injured, but that show the danger of armoured vehicles.
There was an incident in the US where someone stole an M60 tank and more or less crushed everything in his path until he got stuck on a concrete divider or something.

I have seen that too, and because of the armor, they hadn't any chance to stop him, until he had met this obstacle.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-02-12 11:52am

It was on Police, Camera, Action! years ago and I recall they managed to get in via a $10 pair of bolt cutters as the guy was stuck on the highway separator wall. They incapacitated him with a 9mm round to the shoulder.

Antares · Post by **Antares** » 2004-02-12 12:01pm

If stuff like that would be allowed in germany the questions would be:
Where to set the limits and how much of a threat could a armored vehicle like that be?

Sure it would be cool to won leopard 2 tanks (even if they are unarmed) But what at what risk?

People able to buy such stuff are certainly able to run it. Would you argue with somebody owning a tank and who shows some kind of insanity?

Or what about terrorists, the mafisa? They could easily get light to heavily armord stuff for their needs.

The next thing is stealing. A fully unarmed runable tank could be stolen to to a lot of shit with it and STOPPING such a tank would require military equipmentand would defenitly cause casualties (at least the driver).

Even the BTR 60 weights 10 tons and could easily be used for doing a great amount of damage.

If it is allowed to own light wheeled armored vehicles people are complaining why heavy wheeled armored vehicles arent allowed.

If heavy wheeled armored vehicles are allowed, they complain about why light tracked vehicles arent allowed.

Got the idea?

This would lead to a situation like in the USA. If buying military stuff is allowed then what about bying conventional long range missiles with mentioning your higher requrements for self-defense.

I am REALLY glad that laws about this issues are that strict in germany.
Violance is increasing everywhere and effents like Erfurt would be much more often if we had the same laws like in the US for example.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-02-12 12:14pm

Antares wrote:This would lead to a situation like in the USA. If buying military stuff is allowed then what about bying conventional long range missiles with mentioning your higher requrements for self-defense.

This is what they call a "slippery slope" argument, Antares. As for this specific example, a long-range cruise missile could not possibly be used for defense; it is only an offensive weapon.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-02-12 12:35pm

phongn wrote:
Antares wrote:This would lead to a situation like in the USA. If buying military stuff is allowed then what about bying conventional long range missiles with mentioning your higher requrements for self-defense.
This is what they call a "slippery slope" argument, Antares. As for this specific example, a long-range cruise missile could not possibly be used for defense; it is only an offensive weapon.

Tell the DPRK that.

Antares · Post by **Antares** » 2004-02-12 01:00pm

phongn wrote:
Antares wrote:This would lead to a situation like in the USA. If buying military stuff is allowed then what about bying conventional long range missiles with mentioning your higher requrements for self-defense.
This is what they call a "slippery slope" argument, Antares. As for this specific example, a long-range cruise missile could not possibly be used for defense; it is only an offensive weapon.

depends on situation IMO. If you are attacking a force which is attacking you first, then i would say its some kind of defensive use.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-02-12 01:14pm

Antares wrote:
phongn wrote:
Antares wrote:This would lead to a situation like in the USA. If buying military stuff is allowed then what about bying conventional long range missiles with mentioning your higher requrements for self-defense.
This is what they call a "slippery slope" argument, Antares. As for this specific example, a long-range cruise missile could not possibly be used for defense; it is only an offensive weapon.
depends on situation IMO. If you are attacking a force which is attacking you first, then i would say its some kind of defensive use.

And when the HELL is a private citizen going to be in a realistic situation where his attackers are using weapons that require responding with a long-range missile?

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2004-02-12 01:17pm

had to retaliate to those gang bangers with a good dose of mutually assured destruction.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-02-12 03:27pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
phongn wrote:This is what they call a "slippery slope" argument, Antares. As for this specific example, a long-range cruise missile could not possibly be used for defense; it is only an offensive weapon.
Tell the DPRK that.

He'll get the message on a post-it note affixed to a Minuteman III reentry vehicle.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-02-12 04:00pm

phongn wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:This is what they call a "slippery slope" argument, Antares. As for this specific example, a long-range cruise missile could not possibly be used for defense; it is only an offensive weapon.
Tell the DPRK that.

He'll get the message on a post-it note affixed to a Minuteman III reentry vehicle.[/quote]

Bwahahahaha!
[/Ryoko]

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-02-12 05:04pm

The Kernel wrote:
Actually, he's exactly like he sounds from all the articles I've read about him. He's the same as any other survivalist nut, only he has billions of dollars that Daddy left him. I mean, this guy doesn't just have tanks, he has huge safes full of automatic weapons tucked away in all parts of his house (including his opera hall the last time I was there).

At the very least though, the man does actually use his tanks from time to time. We saw him run over an old Volkswaggen once (he has a thing for crushing cars) and I see him driving his trailer with one of his tanks every now and then.

The city absolutely hates this guy because of the SCUD incident (aparently there was some disagreement as to what constitutes an "unarmed" missile) as well as his occasional jaunt with his tanks on asphalt roads which tears the shit out of them, although I'm told he doesn't do that anymore.

I know someone who visited him and his 200 odd armored vehicles. Apparently after much argument he brought in not one but two SCUD missiles and launchers, only to have the US government "borrow" one of them for use in training.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-02-12 05:15pm

Antares wrote:If stuff like that would be allowed in germany the questions would be:
Where to set the limits and how much of a threat could a armored vehicle like that be?

Sure it would be cool to won leopard 2 tanks (even if they are unarmed) But what at what risk?

People able to buy such stuff are certainly able to run it. Would you argue with somebody owning a tank and who shows some kind of insanity?

Or what about terrorists, the mafisa? They could easily get light to heavily armord stuff for their needs.

The next thing is stealing. A fully unarmed runable tank could be stolen to to a lot of shit with it and STOPPING such a tank would require military equipmentand would defenitly cause casualties (at least the driver).

Lets see, how many incidents have occurred involving stolen armored vehicles? In the whole of the US I can think of one, which was the famous M60 incident in San Diego. Thing is, that tank was stolen from inside of a USMC base. The likelyness of such a thing is simply too low to matter.

Even the BTR 60 weights 10 tons and could easily be used for doing a great amount of damage.

So what? Think of how many cars you could destroy with a stolen 20-ish ton 18 wheel truck, or a truck loaded with propane tanks. Or if you boarded a tanker laden with ammonia and rammed something with it.. The list of dangerous moving objects in the western world is pretty damn long.

If it is allowed to own light wheeled armored vehicles people are complaining why heavy wheeled armored vehicles arent allowed.

If heavy wheeled armored vehicles are allowed, they complain about why light tracked vehicles arent allowed.

Got the idea?

That is just stupid. I suppose you'd argue that dump trucks should be banned from private ownership as well, least someone complain that they can't drive [url=http://www.thom.org/photos/MNHBtruck.jpg[/url]this on the street.

This would lead to a situation like in the USA. If buying military stuff is allowed then what about bying conventional long range missiles with mentioning your higher requrements for self-defense.

Unlike a tank, you can't drive a cruise missile around simply for your own enjoyment.

I am REALLY glad that laws about this issues are that strict in germany.
Violance is increasing everywhere and effents like Erfurt would be much more often if we had the same laws like in the US for example.

Look moron, why don't you cite some real examples of privately owned armored vehicles being used in crime in the western world. Then lets look a list of all the times normal cars have been used for crime..

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-02-12 05:19pm

Tribun wrote:
I have seen that too, and because of the armor, they hadn't any chance to stop him, until he had met this obstacle.

Actually the USMC was in the process of mobilizing a team with anti tank weapons to destroy it if necessary. Course, that tank came out of a military base, something Antares beloved weapons free Germany has about six hundred of, so it's not much of a justification.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-02-12 06:29pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:It's a pity he'd be an expanding cloud of vapour if we ever did get into the war he'd been stockpiling for.
Well, it really depends on his distance from a major target. Most areas a decent distance away from cities of 50,000 or larger would come out just fine, except for the disruption of services, which he has presumably planned for.
I'm betting he'd be in the city buying groceries when he hears the siren and goes "Oh shit! Must get home! Must get home!".

He lives in Los Altos, about as far from anywhere while still being somewhere that you can get. Still, you have to wonder whom exactly would drive these 200+ vehicles during a war. Is he planning to just distribute them to his neighbors? Not to mention all the RPG's and Assault Weapons he has kicking around.

He did mention once that he is most worried about a sea invasion from China, from which his place would be Ground Zero and he would be able to kick the Chinese' asses.