US citizens vs Mexican military on teh border

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US citizens vs Mexican military on teh border

Post by Hamel »

Worse than you may have believed

And thanks to Freepers for the link, pity be on them
Vigilantes targeting Mexican military

Troops help drug, people smugglers and will be shot, says leader of armed patrol in Douglas.

LUKE TURF
Tucson Citizen

DOUGLAS - Rhetoric along the Mexican border here is rising, with a heavily armed group of residents declaring war on the Mexican military, and the mayor thinks chances are rising that someone will get hurt.

The next time a Mexican soldier sets foot on the small chunk of border property owned by a Ranch Rescue member group, members plan to open fire, their leader said.

"Two in the chest and one in the head," warned Jack Foote, president of Ranch Rescue, a civilian group that patrols in search of illegal immigrants and drug smugglers. He said his group is protecting the rights of property owners.

Chances are rising for an international shootout, thanks to patrols along the Cochise County border by people other than law enforcement, said Douglas Mayor Ray Borane.

"This isn't a game," Borane said. "That's the thing that has always worried me, that these people would cause an international incident and not only hinder relations with Mexico, but that they'd make this area become a hotbed for other organizations like that."

According to the Arizona Revised Statutes, trespassing alone does not justify use of deadly force. Deadly force is allowed in self-defense, to protect another person from harm or to prevent certain crimes, including burglary, murder, assault, arson of an occupied structure and armed robbery.

The Border Patrol counts a border "incursion" as a sighting, contact or physical evidence of entry into the United States by a foreign law enforcement official between official ports of entry, said agency spokeswoman Gloria Chavez.

Between 200 and 250 incursions have been documented in the past five years, not counting accidental crossings, said U.S. Rep. Tom Tancredo, a Republican from Colorado and outspoken advocate of militarizing the border.

That figure is compiled from law enforcement agencies along the Canadian and Mexican borders. Tucson Citizen archives show four reported incidents since 1997 in southern Arizona.

Since October, seven military incursions have been reported to the U.S. Border Patrol along both borders, Chavez said.

She agreed that the risk is high.

"It's not out of the ordinary, because it happens," she said of the crossings. "You're talking about both sides carrying weapons; that escalates the danger. Incursions are a very sensitive issue because it involves the sovereignty of our nation, and whenever they do happen it elevates the safety risk of our agents working along the border."

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Shots reported

About two months ago, the Mexican military crossed onto Ranch Rescue's Arizona base, Camp Thunderbird, for the fifth time since July, Foote said. The Mexicans fired six or eight shots during the latest incident, though Ranch Rescue members did not report it to the Cochise County Sheriff's Department, he said.

"If there's an Arizona militia out there, we want them to come," Foote said. "If not, we're going to form our own militia. This is a war down here."

Tombstone-based Civil Homeland Defense founder Chris Simcox, who organizes civilian border patrols, recently videotaped a border encounter with what appear to be armed Mexican troops.

The men are gathered near an abandoned house Simcox said is commonly used as a staging area for illegal entries into the United States. Several of the men approach the barbed-wire border fence, then return to their Humvee.

The tape does not show the Mexican military crossing the border, but Simcox said the encounter on the tape is his second run-in with the Mexican military on the border. He was shot at by the military in July 2002 while on a patrol, he said.

A general in the Mexican military in Agua Prieta, Son., didn't return repeated phone calls this week, and soldiers at his base said he wasn't available.

Simcox and Foote aren't the only ones who say the Mexican military's border activities protect immigrant and drug smuggling.

"The drug cartel employs the services of the Mexican military," Tancredo said.

He heads the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus, a group started in 1999 to address immigration issues in Congress.

"They're shipping drugs into the United States, that's what's going on," he said.

The military creates distractions for smugglers or protects loads of drugs and/or immigrants coming over the border, he said.

While crossings in the desert where the border is often poorly marked are often accidental, Chavez said, if a Mexican military unit is caught on this side of the border, its members would be apprehended, she said. She didn't know the last time that happened.

Sometimes smugglers dress as military to fool authorities, Chavez said.

Camp Thunderbird

Inside Camp Thunderbird, bullet casings litter the small ranch with two dwellings and an old trailer just down the road from the U.S. Border Patrol station. Large dogs stand guard outside, an old swimming pool is almost empty, a guest house is under renovation, and inside the living quarters, movies such as "G.I. Jane" and "Independence Day" sit on a shelf.

"We choose to fight. We're not going to run away." Foote said.

Foote wouldn't say how many of the 250 to 300 members of Ranch Rescue he claims to have are at the ranch at any given time. But rifles and handguns are in every room.

He said another recent incident brought four men with rifles close to the ranch before he scared them off with a flare. Foote said he wasn't sure who they were because they weren't dressed as military.

But he doesn't care.

"Mexican drug smugglers. Mexican army. Pretty much the same thing. We're in a border war," he said.
To me it seems like we need our troops on the border, not in a shitbag middle eastern country whose dictator we fondled almost 20 years ago
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Post by Joe »

Mexico is a bigger enemy to us than any of the "Axis of Weasels" countries. I see no reason to continue coddling them.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

This has been going on for years. We should shoot foriegn military forces who repetatively violate our soveriegnty. Particularly when they're stooges for shitbag drug lords.
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Post by Mr Bean »

Unless you plan to fortify a few thousand miles of desolate desert, then putting the Army on the border is not going to help things much as there is to much border for to little Army

Unless of course as mentioned you plan to fortify the area with motion sensors and what-not and form Response units a mile or two behind the border with Mechanized Infantry/Air support to respond to any contacts with very liberal ROE

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Post by Montcalm »

Just carpet bomb the Mexicans until they`re nothing more than fertiliser for the soil. :wink: :wink:
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

So, the best these fuckers have is a video tape of mexican military on thier OWN side of the border and wander around with guns read to shoot folk based on thier knowledge these people are drug cartel stooges....

Is there some kind of special brain bypass operation available in texas?
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

The list linked to there of Border Incidents is pretty shit too....over the past 7 years they have 4 incidents listed, 2 of which sound like them PREVENTING illegals coming into america or drugs being brought in....which is what these fucknuts are complaining about in the first place....

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Post by Howedar »

If a Mexican soldier enters United States territory knowingly and without permission, while in uniform and armed, we goddamned well ought to shoot his ass.
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Post by Col. Crackpot »

Howedar wrote:If a Mexican soldier enters United States territory knowingly and without permission, while in uniform and armed, we goddamned well ought to shoot his ass.
amen to that. especially if an armed solder invades private property.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

If things get bad, how long would an actual war between America and Mexico last? We've already got assets and resources in striking range...
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Post by Darth Raptor »

It would be bombing runs and cruise missile strikes until Mexico goes to the peace table. I don't think we would or could occupy them.
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Post by Col. Crackpot »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:If things get bad, how long would an actual war between America and Mexico last? We've already got assets and resources in striking range...
the Delaware National Guard could fuck up Mexico's shit.
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

Col. Crackpot wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:If things get bad, how long would an actual war between America and Mexico last? We've already got assets and resources in striking range...
the Delaware National Guard could fuck up Mexico's shit.
If they had the transport to get in theatre :) The Mexican Army is poorly funded, underequipped, and has horrendous morale. Part of the reason that many officers pimp out their units to the drug lords is because otherwise they and their men don't get paid and don't get shit to eat. Like Canada, they depend on the USA and the Monroe Doctrine to defend them.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

You know, I don't think the world realizes how lucky they are that America doesn't decide it needs a little more "lebensraum". Who could stop us from conquering all of the Americas?
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Post by Joe »

Well, the U.N. could pass a whole bunch of resolutions, but we know how effective those are.
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:You know, I don't think the world realizes how lucky they are that America doesn't decide it needs a little more "lebensraum". Who could stop us from conquering all of the Americas?
The American public would never, ever stand for that.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Pablo Sanchez wrote:If they had the transport to get in theatre :) The Mexican Army is poorly funded, underequipped, and has horrendous morale. Part of the reason that many officers pimp out their units to the drug lords is because otherwise they and their men don't get paid and don't get shit to eat. Like Canada, they depend on the USA and the Monroe Doctrine to defend them.
However, unlike Canada, the Mexicans continually piss in their benefactors' backyards and seem to get away with it. We're a first-world nation so you don't have a problem with a stream of Canadian illegals pouring across the border, although I'll grant that many Americans would probably like to deport Celine Dion.
Last edited by Darth Wong on 2004-02-14 05:34pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Darth Raptor »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Who could stop us from conquering all of the Americas?
There simply isn't reason to take any of South America other than Venezuela. And we really don't have the forces to occupy entire continents. Hell, we're strained just holding onto Iraq.
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Post by Darth Wong »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:You know, I don't think the world realizes how lucky they are that America doesn't decide it needs a little more "lebensraum".
What would you gain by conquering Canada? The US government already has as much influence over Canada as it does over any of the large multinational corporations which run roughshod inside its own borders. And what of South America? It's a worthless shithole, you know.
Who could stop us from conquering all of the Americas?
The American voters, when they realize you're driving their economy into the shitter with yet another military campaign for no good reason? Your own economists, when they realize what effect the disruption of the enormous cross-border trade would cause? Your own military planners, when they realize you're stretching them far beyond any reasonable bounds?
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Darth Wong wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:You know, I don't think the world realizes how lucky they are that America doesn't decide it needs a little more "lebensraum".
What would you gain by conquering Canada? The US government already has as much influence over Canada as it does over any of the large multinational corporations which run roughshod inside its own borders. And what of South America? It's a worthless shithole, you know.
Why conquer Canada? Why for their strategic ice and timber reserves, of course ;)
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Post by Col. Crackpot »

Darth Wong wrote: However, unlike Canada, the Mexicans continually piss in their benefactors' backyards and seem to get away with it. We're a first-world nation so you don't have a problem with a stream of Canadian illegals pouring across the border, although I'll grant that many Americans would probably like to deport Celine Dion.
but their arne't hoards of illegal canadians streaming across the border. Unlike it's Mexican counterpart, the Canadian government knows a little something about tunning a country.
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Post by Defiant »

Lazy Raptor wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Who could stop us from conquering all of the Americas?
There simply isn't reason to take any of South America other than Venezuela. And we really don't have the forces to occupy entire continents. Hell, we're strained just holding onto Iraq.
From a purely logistical standpoint, it would be far easier to maintain a campaign against Mexico and Canada than maintaining a grip on a hostile nation so far away.

That being said, it would be suicide to invade Canada. Wars should be fought when you have something to gain, and there's nothing to gain from war that we couldn't achieve through negotiation and diplomacy.

As for Mexico, we've let them shit on us for years, and I'm still not quite sure why.
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Post by Darth Raptor »

Defiant wrote:From a purely logistical standpoint, it would be far easier to maintain a campaign against Mexico and Canada than maintaining a grip on a hostile nation so far away.
A campaign? Yes. We'd knock 'em on their ass, but we'd have a terrible time holding onto it. Mexico is a lot bigger and has a large population that would be up in arms against us. It gets even worse in Central and South America. We'd have to recall all of our overseas forces and put war production at WWII levels to do it. We'd also have to bring back conscription.
That being said, it would be suicide to invade Canada. Wars should be fought when you have something to gain, and there's nothing to gain from war that we couldn't achieve through negotiation and diplomacy.
Of course. Total American conquest is economically, politically and logistically impossible.
As for Mexico, we've let them shit on us for years, and I'm still not quite sure why.
Because when you come right down to it, there's really not a lot we can do about it.
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

Defiant wrote:As for Mexico, we've let them shit on us for years, and I'm still not quite sure why.
Because there's nothing to be done about it. Let's say that the USA invaded and conquered Mexico. How would that solve any of the problems that Mexico causes? More like it would exacerbate them.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

So, legally and politically, what happens when American citizens start shooting at Mexicans who are illegally trespassing? Do we send the national guard to stop them?

There's a word for what happens when citizens of a nation start fighting their own military...
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