Tharkun, Sir Nitram brings up a very valid point. The ability of a populace to rebel is in correlation to their ability to get their hands on the enemy. Your Greek resistance fighters had Reich soldiers right in front of them upon which to exact their revenge, and there was the added benefit that the dead occupiers dropped their weapons for later Greek use.
But would the Greeks have been so cheeky if the Germans had parked (say, for example) the Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Bismark off the shores, without any ground troops, and just shelled the bejezus out of the place? There would have been zero opportunity for the Greeks to retaliate against the far-off battleships. The only way out of this destruction is to accept client-state status.
Also, bear in mind that the Empire might not even BDZ a Federation world to quell a Federation resistance movement-- early on there would be resistance movements among other worlds-- so if the Empire were to BDZ a Romulan, Klingon or Cardassian world and show the results to the Feds, you'd have an advantage: none of the Feds feel that they have comrades that must be avenged since only creepy Cardassians (etc) got wasted while displaying the point of Imperial firepower.
The biowar attack premise is still doubtful, IMO. The Empire would agree to shore leave facilities that are in 'friendly' areas (coopertive client states) while declaring any unsecured area to be a full-suit environment. The Imperial Stormtrooper armor is built for prolonged usage; and Stormtroopers are described frequently as having fanatical loyalty, which would include obeying orders. Also, the Empire might very well see the advantage of taking local technology-- namely, holodecks-- and using them as field brothels if there is a particular demand that needs to be met.
And for all and sundry-- when quoting blocks of an opponent's text, try to trim it down to the most relevant points. IMO this would be a good idea all across the bbs, since some have expressed problems with their computers' abilities to handle large posts...
The real question is, "What Happens to Trek AFTER...?&q
Moderator: Vympel
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Coyote
- Rabid Monkey
- Posts: 12464
- Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
- Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
- Contact:
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
SN:
Acceleration: For entire combat scenarios, in the books described as up to 20 minutes long. No injuries or problems at all. One unusual guy managing to survive a second or so of 83G is not the same as the SOP being for all starfighter pilots to take up to(And probably above) 120G's
The majority of combat time is NOT spent at high g's. Unless you are pulling hard turns throughout then you are not at those high of G's. Further what relative velocity is combat at? After just 1 second at those G's you are looking 49,000 m/s ... which means you are not going to see battles in "orbit" of anything.
The difference being, dumbass, Isreal does not use those weapons against the Palestinians. On Earth, deploying a nuclear device is a travesty. The Imperials see sterilizing a planet as a standard military op. Your inability to grasp this difference explains your pathetic arguments.
No they don't it is described as quite rare and a dreaded order. Israel has plenty of other weapons the Pals can do jack didly squat against:
Missiles, jet bombers, and to a large degree Helocopter attack ships.
Very rarely can resistance stand up to the enemy. This is why its SOP for rebel groups to melt into the population and hide.
The Imperials aren't Germans. They have advantages orders of magnitude above the captured. The Federation will be decimated.. Do you actually understand that? No surface-to-orbit weapons will be left standing. Any ship which did, miraculously, survive, still can't damage an ISD.
Yes like the Greek military was decimated, like the Phillipines were, like all manner of other societies. However ISD bombardment is a STRATEGIC WEAPON. There is no substitute for troops on the ground for an occupation. You can kill everyone, but WHY BOTHER? You can set up a nice client state, trade whatever pitiful resources you actually want from the core worlds and minimize your costs. Just because you could kill everyone does not mean you will nor that you should.
Further if you make a habit of nailing worlds from which terrorists sprout ... you will soon run out of worlds to lay to rubble. There is no way to stop all terrorists. Hell if a society can stop 99.99% of terrorists they are doing phenomenally well, but with populations in the billions some will get through.
Not every ship will be lost: Every ship at a planet will be gone. Blown away. Turned to dust. Those that come back hoping for a heroic rescue will be blown away in one shot. 200GT's, that's why the argument is over, Tharkun.
I have never said they come back as herioc rescuers. They are useful as:
1. Supply sources, particularly antimatter.
2. Weapons labs.
3. Transporter pads.
NOWHERE have I said they could stand up to a military force.
Acceleration: For entire combat scenarios, in the books described as up to 20 minutes long. No injuries or problems at all. One unusual guy managing to survive a second or so of 83G is not the same as the SOP being for all starfighter pilots to take up to(And probably above) 120G's
The majority of combat time is NOT spent at high g's. Unless you are pulling hard turns throughout then you are not at those high of G's. Further what relative velocity is combat at? After just 1 second at those G's you are looking 49,000 m/s ... which means you are not going to see battles in "orbit" of anything.
The difference being, dumbass, Isreal does not use those weapons against the Palestinians. On Earth, deploying a nuclear device is a travesty. The Imperials see sterilizing a planet as a standard military op. Your inability to grasp this difference explains your pathetic arguments.
No they don't it is described as quite rare and a dreaded order. Israel has plenty of other weapons the Pals can do jack didly squat against:
Missiles, jet bombers, and to a large degree Helocopter attack ships.
Very rarely can resistance stand up to the enemy. This is why its SOP for rebel groups to melt into the population and hide.
The Imperials aren't Germans. They have advantages orders of magnitude above the captured. The Federation will be decimated.. Do you actually understand that? No surface-to-orbit weapons will be left standing. Any ship which did, miraculously, survive, still can't damage an ISD.
Yes like the Greek military was decimated, like the Phillipines were, like all manner of other societies. However ISD bombardment is a STRATEGIC WEAPON. There is no substitute for troops on the ground for an occupation. You can kill everyone, but WHY BOTHER? You can set up a nice client state, trade whatever pitiful resources you actually want from the core worlds and minimize your costs. Just because you could kill everyone does not mean you will nor that you should.
Further if you make a habit of nailing worlds from which terrorists sprout ... you will soon run out of worlds to lay to rubble. There is no way to stop all terrorists. Hell if a society can stop 99.99% of terrorists they are doing phenomenally well, but with populations in the billions some will get through.
Not every ship will be lost: Every ship at a planet will be gone. Blown away. Turned to dust. Those that come back hoping for a heroic rescue will be blown away in one shot. 200GT's, that's why the argument is over, Tharkun.
I have never said they come back as herioc rescuers. They are useful as:
1. Supply sources, particularly antimatter.
2. Weapons labs.
3. Transporter pads.
NOWHERE have I said they could stand up to a military force.
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes.
Coyote:
If you are just in orbit then your ONLY option is the client state, which is again what I have said is the most likely course of action.
If you go for full and outright occupation you cannot remove your soldiers from the feild ... strategic weapons do not substitute for grunts on the feild.
My conclusion has always been the same ... that the most prudent and likely course of action will be a client state. If the Empire opts for outright occupation they face terrorists with antimatter, bioweapons, and millions of resistors. They may be able to quell all of this before the resistors are able to do damage ... but at what price? Terrorists have been getting progressively more lethal as technology advances. Gunpowder gave way to dynamite which gave way to semtex which gives way to even more powerful explosives.
The weapons which today are only viable with massive government backing are availible to many more people in a more technologically advanced society. Even if the Imps are COMPLETELY invunerable to feddie resistance, there is always the option of cutting off the nose to spite the face (which resistances have done). All told the cheapest and most economical option is the client state.
If you are just in orbit then your ONLY option is the client state, which is again what I have said is the most likely course of action.
If you go for full and outright occupation you cannot remove your soldiers from the feild ... strategic weapons do not substitute for grunts on the feild.
My conclusion has always been the same ... that the most prudent and likely course of action will be a client state. If the Empire opts for outright occupation they face terrorists with antimatter, bioweapons, and millions of resistors. They may be able to quell all of this before the resistors are able to do damage ... but at what price? Terrorists have been getting progressively more lethal as technology advances. Gunpowder gave way to dynamite which gave way to semtex which gives way to even more powerful explosives.
The weapons which today are only viable with massive government backing are availible to many more people in a more technologically advanced society. Even if the Imps are COMPLETELY invunerable to feddie resistance, there is always the option of cutting off the nose to spite the face (which resistances have done). All told the cheapest and most economical option is the client state.
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes.
I'm suprised no one has brought up the topic of Imperial Intellegence and how they would deal with this rebellion. Particularily the Inquisitors.
And Tarkun: First post said the fleet was gone. So stop trying to use them.
And Tarkun: First post said the fleet was gone. So stop trying to use them.
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
I'm suprised no one has brought up the topic of Imperial Intellegence and how they would deal with this rebellion. Particularily the Inquisitors.
And Tarkun: First post said the fleet was gone. So stop trying to use them.
And Tarkun: First post said the fleet was gone. So stop trying to use them.
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
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SirNitram
- Rest in Peace, Black Mage
- Posts: 28367
- Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
- Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere
Tharkun: I can see now, why you are considered stupid.
Acceleration: The X-wing novels and several others describe fighters being at maximum thrust for extended durations, the 20+ minutes I mentioned. We know max thrust to be at least 5000G's. So please either post actual evidence or suck my dick, you worthless idiot.
BDZ And Strategic Weapons: A ISD's bombardment is not a strategic weapon by Imperial standards, and as the people judging whether to give the order, it's the one that matters. It's rare, yes, in a setting where there are a million worlds with millions of ships and tens of thousands of Star Destroyers. Of course, you can't actually count to twenty without going barefoot or wearing sandals, so you can't understand what that implies on the meaning of 'rare'.
Isreal Again: They can't hit those weapons, but they can hit the populace. If the Federation is still in a state of chaos, there will be no civilian populace of the Empire's there. They will have no target they can reach. You can't actually comprehend what this means, can you?
Client States: If you had a brain, you'd realize that's the Imperial SOP for conquered territory. You, however, have taken many posts and now think it's your own idea. Wow, you're really fucking stupid.
Starships Uses:
1. Supply: To who? How? How do they get to a planet with a resistance group when said planet would be guarded, dumbass?
2. Weapons Labs: The Federation took over a hundred years to design an ergonamic rifle. They will accomplish nothing in this claimed use.
3. Again, what possible use could transporters serve?
Acceleration: The X-wing novels and several others describe fighters being at maximum thrust for extended durations, the 20+ minutes I mentioned. We know max thrust to be at least 5000G's. So please either post actual evidence or suck my dick, you worthless idiot.
BDZ And Strategic Weapons: A ISD's bombardment is not a strategic weapon by Imperial standards, and as the people judging whether to give the order, it's the one that matters. It's rare, yes, in a setting where there are a million worlds with millions of ships and tens of thousands of Star Destroyers. Of course, you can't actually count to twenty without going barefoot or wearing sandals, so you can't understand what that implies on the meaning of 'rare'.
Isreal Again: They can't hit those weapons, but they can hit the populace. If the Federation is still in a state of chaos, there will be no civilian populace of the Empire's there. They will have no target they can reach. You can't actually comprehend what this means, can you?
Client States: If you had a brain, you'd realize that's the Imperial SOP for conquered territory. You, however, have taken many posts and now think it's your own idea. Wow, you're really fucking stupid.
Starships Uses:
1. Supply: To who? How? How do they get to a planet with a resistance group when said planet would be guarded, dumbass?
2. Weapons Labs: The Federation took over a hundred years to design an ergonamic rifle. They will accomplish nothing in this claimed use.
3. Again, what possible use could transporters serve?
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus
Debator Classification: Trollhunter
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus
Debator Classification: Trollhunter
SN:
My FIRST post in this thread:
"Much more likely is the Imps come in, kick some ass, and then set up a client state. "
I have been argueing for a client state the entire frikking time. I know its real challenging to read what people actually say rather than mocking a strawman, but please try.
We have NEVER seen starfighters use 5000g's for anything more than transitory bursts. At that acceleration you'd be going 49,000 m/s after 1 second of acceleration (49 km/s). Your position change would be 1,200 *km*. Now think back to RoTJ when an A-wing Suicides into the executor ... is he going ANYWHERE near those speeds? No, even though he needs to go for as much KE as possible he doesn't get anywhere frikking near those veloticies. The fact that SW combat takes place in visual range (where the human eye can make out the target) should tell you that they cannot maintain excessively high G's for anything of long duration.
Further can the pilots hold the yoke? Why don't their arms rip out of the sockets when they go through such G forces?
Further why don't you try supply some evidence, like the actual quote.
They can't hit those weapons, but they can hit the populace. If the Federation is still in a state of chaos, there will be no civilian populace
Deploy the IDF on the perimetre with machine gun emplacement, bomb Palestine ... in short the Pals can do JACK DIDLY SQUAT if the IDF decides to kill them. Just because the enemy has the ability to kill you does not mean he will, nor that it will be sensible.
1. Supply: To who? How? How do they get to a planet with a resistance group when said planet would be guarded, dumbass?
Considering Imperial sensors can't see the far side of gas giant (ref RoTJ) and that ST ships can use warp to their advatange ... unless the imps have an outright blockade of the system they can simply do a flyby with a cargo drop.
2. Weapons Labs: The Federation took over a hundred years to design an ergonamic rifle. They will accomplish nothing in this claimed use.
Actually the Feddies had ergonomic rifles forever, they just choose not to use them. We had ToS example, we had the one not used on DS9. We further have seen feddie BIO labs do some fun things (like genetically egineer ADULTS). Somehow they do manage to make bioweapons in the UFP.
3. Again, what possible use could transporters serve?
Quick movement of supplies. Capture of Imperial officers if they stray into non-sheilded areas. Bomb placement. You can't jam everything 24/7 without impairing everything else.
Ender:
I'm suprised no one has brought up the topic of Imperial Intellegence and how they would deal with this rebellion. Particularily the Inquisitors.
Likely as good as Imperial Intellegence was at finding the locations of Yavin and Hoth. The Imperials demonstrated humint capabilities are decidedly low. Despite the fact that the Rebellion accepts former Imperial troops into its highest ranks, the Imperials have not managed to get a single mole into Yavin or Hoth to relay the location to Tarkun or to Darth Vader. Instead they have to rely on other methods.
First post said the fleet was gone. So stop trying to use them.
Tell me was the Japanese fleet gone at the end of WWII? Even if the fleet is gone individual ships often survive. There has never been a war where every single ship was destroyed.
My FIRST post in this thread:
"Much more likely is the Imps come in, kick some ass, and then set up a client state. "
I have been argueing for a client state the entire frikking time. I know its real challenging to read what people actually say rather than mocking a strawman, but please try.
We have NEVER seen starfighters use 5000g's for anything more than transitory bursts. At that acceleration you'd be going 49,000 m/s after 1 second of acceleration (49 km/s). Your position change would be 1,200 *km*. Now think back to RoTJ when an A-wing Suicides into the executor ... is he going ANYWHERE near those speeds? No, even though he needs to go for as much KE as possible he doesn't get anywhere frikking near those veloticies. The fact that SW combat takes place in visual range (where the human eye can make out the target) should tell you that they cannot maintain excessively high G's for anything of long duration.
Further can the pilots hold the yoke? Why don't their arms rip out of the sockets when they go through such G forces?
Further why don't you try supply some evidence, like the actual quote.
They can't hit those weapons, but they can hit the populace. If the Federation is still in a state of chaos, there will be no civilian populace
Deploy the IDF on the perimetre with machine gun emplacement, bomb Palestine ... in short the Pals can do JACK DIDLY SQUAT if the IDF decides to kill them. Just because the enemy has the ability to kill you does not mean he will, nor that it will be sensible.
1. Supply: To who? How? How do they get to a planet with a resistance group when said planet would be guarded, dumbass?
Considering Imperial sensors can't see the far side of gas giant (ref RoTJ) and that ST ships can use warp to their advatange ... unless the imps have an outright blockade of the system they can simply do a flyby with a cargo drop.
2. Weapons Labs: The Federation took over a hundred years to design an ergonamic rifle. They will accomplish nothing in this claimed use.
Actually the Feddies had ergonomic rifles forever, they just choose not to use them. We had ToS example, we had the one not used on DS9. We further have seen feddie BIO labs do some fun things (like genetically egineer ADULTS). Somehow they do manage to make bioweapons in the UFP.
3. Again, what possible use could transporters serve?
Quick movement of supplies. Capture of Imperial officers if they stray into non-sheilded areas. Bomb placement. You can't jam everything 24/7 without impairing everything else.
Ender:
I'm suprised no one has brought up the topic of Imperial Intellegence and how they would deal with this rebellion. Particularily the Inquisitors.
Likely as good as Imperial Intellegence was at finding the locations of Yavin and Hoth. The Imperials demonstrated humint capabilities are decidedly low. Despite the fact that the Rebellion accepts former Imperial troops into its highest ranks, the Imperials have not managed to get a single mole into Yavin or Hoth to relay the location to Tarkun or to Darth Vader. Instead they have to rely on other methods.
First post said the fleet was gone. So stop trying to use them.
Tell me was the Japanese fleet gone at the end of WWII? Even if the fleet is gone individual ships often survive. There has never been a war where every single ship was destroyed.
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes.
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SirNitram
- Rest in Peace, Black Mage
- Posts: 28367
- Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
- Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere
Ah, the hypocrisy of your debating style shows through, Tharkun. You demand I show evidence, when you've brought none to the table. How about fucking off?
Your idiotic attempt to make a parallel is still failing, moron boy. Isreal and Palestin are not like the Empire and it's conquered minions. There is no possibility of a Federation man, woman, or child to get at an Imperial civilian. And they are quite willing to set up blockades that, for primitives like the Feds, would be unescapable. You think just because the country you choose for your bad analogy doesn't kill people casually, the Empire won't?
Wow, you're stupid, Tharkun. Perhaps you missed the line explicitly stating that there sensors were being jammed at that point.(How can they be jamming us.. Unless.. they know we're coming... -Lando, ROTJ)
Oh, they don't use them despite the terrifying enemies called the Borg and Dominion. From this I can safely conclude they won't come out against the Empire, either. Again, your bio-weapons tangent is meaningless. 1) It will not affect a Star Destroyer in orbit, blowing a revolting city off the map with one shot. 2) It will not affect Stormtroopers, who are protected against such.
Given the ease at which Transporters can be blocked, Tharkun, the Empire can easily jam them. Hell, we saw how jamming them disrupts nothing else(Star Trek: Insurrection, the Transporter Inhibitors.)
In short, either provide evidence for your claims, or fuck off.
Your idiotic attempt to make a parallel is still failing, moron boy. Isreal and Palestin are not like the Empire and it's conquered minions. There is no possibility of a Federation man, woman, or child to get at an Imperial civilian. And they are quite willing to set up blockades that, for primitives like the Feds, would be unescapable. You think just because the country you choose for your bad analogy doesn't kill people casually, the Empire won't?
Wow, you're stupid, Tharkun. Perhaps you missed the line explicitly stating that there sensors were being jammed at that point.(How can they be jamming us.. Unless.. they know we're coming... -Lando, ROTJ)
Oh, they don't use them despite the terrifying enemies called the Borg and Dominion. From this I can safely conclude they won't come out against the Empire, either. Again, your bio-weapons tangent is meaningless. 1) It will not affect a Star Destroyer in orbit, blowing a revolting city off the map with one shot. 2) It will not affect Stormtroopers, who are protected against such.
Given the ease at which Transporters can be blocked, Tharkun, the Empire can easily jam them. Hell, we saw how jamming them disrupts nothing else(Star Trek: Insurrection, the Transporter Inhibitors.)
In short, either provide evidence for your claims, or fuck off.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus
Debator Classification: Trollhunter
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus
Debator Classification: Trollhunter
Ah, the hypocrisy of your debating style shows through, Tharkun. You demand I show evidence, when you've brought none to the table. How about fucking off?
Well let's you are the one claiming that Imperial humans are not humans, and that they can magically withstand 100's of G's for long durations ... nevermind you have yet to show evidence of any kind. Its your burden of proof.
Your idiotic attempt to make a parallel is still failing, moron boy. Isreal and Palestin are not like the Empire and it's conquered minions. There is no possibility of a Federation man, woman, or child to get at an Imperial civilian.
No the Empire does not have smugglers able to move people and goods across the stars. They don't have civillian transports. Further they have no military transports which visit civillian centres. Every Imperial conquest we have ever seen is completely cut off from the rest of the Empire ...
oh wait that's warsie fantasy. Do you know how many suicide bombers use Israeli public transportation?
Wow, you're stupid, Tharkun. Perhaps you missed the line explicitly stating that there sensors were being jammed at that point.(How can they be jamming us.. Unless.. they know we're coming... -Lando, ROTJ)
And no one in ST knows anything about jamming
Not long enough for someone to do a quick flyby.
Oh, they don't use them despite the terrifying enemies called the Borg and Dominion. From this I can safely conclude they won't come out against the Empire, either. Again, your bio-weapons tangent is meaningless. 1) It will not affect a Star Destroyer in orbit, blowing a revolting city off the map with one shot. 2) It will not affect Stormtroopers, who are protected against such.
Yes storm trooper armor is not puncturable, it is completely impervious, except for mystic Ewok arrows. They never take it off either. Stormies live their entire lives inside their armor, imperial officers on the ground never work without NBC protection
Given the ease at which Transporters can be blocked, Tharkun, the Empire can easily jam them. Hell, we saw how jamming them disrupts nothing else(Star Trek: Insurrection, the Transporter Inhibitors.)
Those did not block transporters, merely targetting sensors you would note that transport was done in STI even due to jamming.
In short, either provide evidence for your claims, or fuck off.
Let's see I've:
quoted dozens of historical examples
quoted numerous episodes
You have yet do anything other than swear and state your opinion as fact.
Well let's you are the one claiming that Imperial humans are not humans, and that they can magically withstand 100's of G's for long durations ... nevermind you have yet to show evidence of any kind. Its your burden of proof.
Your idiotic attempt to make a parallel is still failing, moron boy. Isreal and Palestin are not like the Empire and it's conquered minions. There is no possibility of a Federation man, woman, or child to get at an Imperial civilian.
No the Empire does not have smugglers able to move people and goods across the stars. They don't have civillian transports. Further they have no military transports which visit civillian centres. Every Imperial conquest we have ever seen is completely cut off from the rest of the Empire ...
oh wait that's warsie fantasy. Do you know how many suicide bombers use Israeli public transportation?
Wow, you're stupid, Tharkun. Perhaps you missed the line explicitly stating that there sensors were being jammed at that point.(How can they be jamming us.. Unless.. they know we're coming... -Lando, ROTJ)
And no one in ST knows anything about jamming
Not long enough for someone to do a quick flyby.Oh, they don't use them despite the terrifying enemies called the Borg and Dominion. From this I can safely conclude they won't come out against the Empire, either. Again, your bio-weapons tangent is meaningless. 1) It will not affect a Star Destroyer in orbit, blowing a revolting city off the map with one shot. 2) It will not affect Stormtroopers, who are protected against such.
Yes storm trooper armor is not puncturable, it is completely impervious, except for mystic Ewok arrows. They never take it off either. Stormies live their entire lives inside their armor, imperial officers on the ground never work without NBC protection
Given the ease at which Transporters can be blocked, Tharkun, the Empire can easily jam them. Hell, we saw how jamming them disrupts nothing else(Star Trek: Insurrection, the Transporter Inhibitors.)
Those did not block transporters, merely targetting sensors you would note that transport was done in STI even due to jamming.
In short, either provide evidence for your claims, or fuck off.
Let's see I've:
quoted dozens of historical examples
quoted numerous episodes
You have yet do anything other than swear and state your opinion as fact.
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes.
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Utsanomiko
- The Legend Rado Tharadus
- Posts: 5079
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- Location: My personal sanctuary from the outside world
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SirNitram
- Rest in Peace, Black Mage
- Posts: 28367
- Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
- Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere
G-Tolerances: I've provided evidence for the fact Wars humans have evolved incredible tolerance for G-Forces. I'll even cite it again: The accelerations given in the Episode II ICS, and the quote from X-wing: Rogue Squadron about the normal level inertial compensasion. That you are far too stupid to recignize these is not my, or any other person's fault, but your own. For you to claim they cannot withstand this requires hard evidence refuting this. I await it.
Terrorist Attacks: Said smugglers are magically there as soon as the Imperials set foot on the ground? Wow, I didn't know they followed conquest fleets between Galaxies. Please cite the source for this idiocy. Given the distances involved(You can't comprehend this, of course, because you're stupid), it would take a long time to integrate the two areas. As for suicide runs like that, you stupidly conclude the Empire has no defense. Funny, the Rebellion couldn't do much damage with those self-same tactics of terrorism... They were forced to fight fleet to fleet, but you would need a brain to know that...
Jamming: To overcome jamming you must pump enough power to out-produce the opposition. ST has nothing close to an ISD's powercore. Besides, the only ship shown to be able to do jack or shit against jamming is the tiny Defiant.
Stormtrooper Armour: So your magical terrorists will run up to a Stormtrooper and stab it to open a hole, without being shot(Here's a hint: snapshots from 30 yards away, E-11's fired from the hip. That is good accuracy, and more than enough to shoot idiots like you claim). Your strawmen aren't terribly interesting, Tharkun. So take them away.
Transporters: Block the sensors, block transport. This has been shown numerous times in canon Trek.(Reference: All the damn quotes in the Transporter section of Mike Wong's canon database)
You being a hypocrit:
1) Your historical examples are flawed. No nation has ever faced an enemy which has no qualms with blowing a city off the map from orbit, even when they were already conquered.
2) I've not seen any episode quotes.
Me Swearing: Too fucking bad, did I step in your itty bitty ego?
Terrorist Attacks: Said smugglers are magically there as soon as the Imperials set foot on the ground? Wow, I didn't know they followed conquest fleets between Galaxies. Please cite the source for this idiocy. Given the distances involved(You can't comprehend this, of course, because you're stupid), it would take a long time to integrate the two areas. As for suicide runs like that, you stupidly conclude the Empire has no defense. Funny, the Rebellion couldn't do much damage with those self-same tactics of terrorism... They were forced to fight fleet to fleet, but you would need a brain to know that...
Jamming: To overcome jamming you must pump enough power to out-produce the opposition. ST has nothing close to an ISD's powercore. Besides, the only ship shown to be able to do jack or shit against jamming is the tiny Defiant.
Stormtrooper Armour: So your magical terrorists will run up to a Stormtrooper and stab it to open a hole, without being shot(Here's a hint: snapshots from 30 yards away, E-11's fired from the hip. That is good accuracy, and more than enough to shoot idiots like you claim). Your strawmen aren't terribly interesting, Tharkun. So take them away.
Transporters: Block the sensors, block transport. This has been shown numerous times in canon Trek.(Reference: All the damn quotes in the Transporter section of Mike Wong's canon database)
You being a hypocrit:
1) Your historical examples are flawed. No nation has ever faced an enemy which has no qualms with blowing a city off the map from orbit, even when they were already conquered.
2) I've not seen any episode quotes.
Me Swearing: Too fucking bad, did I step in your itty bitty ego?
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus
Debator Classification: Trollhunter
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus
Debator Classification: Trollhunter
Sir Nitram:
G-forces:
1. You have never provided the exact quote. All you have said is it is 98% and then your interpretation of said quote.
2. Evolved tolerance for G-Force? Crack kills. Do you know what a G-force is?
It's a frikking convention. There is nothing mystical about G-forces, you cannot "evolve" to overcome them ... its physics not biology. The human arm masses about 2 kg (give or take) its length is 26 cm. Its centre of mass is about 12 cm down. So let's say our X-wing pilot is flying along and does a real quick 100 G turn. Now that is 980 m/s/s, multiply by the mass and you see that 1,960 Newtons is present on the arm (which by the way is strong enough to shatter cement blocks) ... in short our poor pilot is being subjected to a force load as strong as your average karate chop ... continiously. Similar numbers exist for the head, arms, legs, etc ... and yet for all this mythic resiliancy these same pilots can be knocked around easily by normal forces.
Think about it this way, each of those pilots effectively has 1.4 kg weights hanging from each testicle during these maneveurs ... tell me do you think Wedge wouldn't be noticing THAT?
In other words if X-wing pilots "barely notice" such G-forces then EVERYTHING in SW has to be recalculated. It is not biology you are toying with ... but basic physics. If they can withstand 100g's then they can withstand a physical blow of equivalent force.
Terrorist attacks:
So terrorists wait a year or two. Damn how stupid are you? Do you think that the moment the surrender is signed people say, gee I'm going to be a terrorist and go kill themselves? Nope historically terrorism against occupation forces lags days/months/even years behind the arrival of military force. You plan on reaping economic gains from this conquest ... eventually you have to integrate these areas into your society to some degree ... when that happens you had better beleive the smugglers will be there.
The Rebellion is run by frikking idiots. They have no concept of how to conduct warfare against an enemy with much superior firepower and numbers. From having bases on Yavin and Hoth that could not be quickly and nearly completely abandoned, to not using X-wings at Hoth ... their military is incompotent.
Stormtrooper armor:
Yes again they never take it off
We've NEVER never seen Imperial officers without NBC protection on the ground
And most importantly they have never been wounded by projectiles
Jamming:
I see somebody forgot the OTHER big component to jamming ... DISTANCE. ENERGY (and hence power) decreases with the distance SQUARED. So let's say that the ISD has 1*10^25 houles/s of peak power output. Let's say SF ships get upwards of 1*10^19 joules/s. Now at 1 km away the ISD enjoys 6 orders of magnitude more power. However as its signal propogates it loses that advantage. Let's both the ISD in Earth Orbit and the SF ship coming in from behind Saturn. The ISD's signal must travel to Saturn (119,550,000 km). Its signal, upon reaching Saturn, is 1.4 * 10 ^16 times weaker than when it went out (and yes you need to use omindirectional sensors ... as the imps don't know the location of the intruder). So when the signal gets to the feddie ship it is 10 orders of magnitude less than the jamming signal. It then has to interact with the target and reflect/difract/whatever (normally another huge chunk of signal gone) and travel back.
As for blockading the Sol system .... well let's take the 5*10^8 km as the radius of the sphere to be patrolled. That translates into 3.14 * 10^18 sqaure km of surface area to control. In TESB we found that it took numerous ships to blockade a single planet, even though the knew EXACTLY (as within 20 km) where the point of origin would be. It would take every ISD in SW to blockade a single solar system. Now they might be able to use a fleet similar in size to the TESB fleet, perhaps even smaller, to blockade invidual planets ... however if they opt for this route then they are bottled up on the planet, and a simple cloaking device (which the feddies manage to replicate on DS9) will likely get a cargo drop past.
Transporters: Except for STI. Further what happens when you block sensors for a whole planet? What happens to things like air traffic control, communications, etc.?
If you do that 24/7 then you have severly handicapped any commercial ventures on said planet.
1) Your historical examples are flawed. No nation has ever faced an enemy which has no qualms with blowing a city off the map from orbit, even when they were already conquered.
Well let's look at ST, the dominion tried this ... it didn't quell the revolt. The Imperials tried this ... it didn't quell the revolt.
2) I've not seen any episode quotes.
I've specifically listed the episodes in which we've seen bioweapons. I cannot give exact quotes as I lack the relevant scripts.
I apologize for the length, but I have someone who feels saying "you are wrong" is all he needs to answer and pointing out his attempt to BS physics/biology takes post length (and no I don't claim know physics terribly well, just well enough to know that there is nothing special about G-forces).
G-forces:
1. You have never provided the exact quote. All you have said is it is 98% and then your interpretation of said quote.
2. Evolved tolerance for G-Force? Crack kills. Do you know what a G-force is?
It's a frikking convention. There is nothing mystical about G-forces, you cannot "evolve" to overcome them ... its physics not biology. The human arm masses about 2 kg (give or take) its length is 26 cm. Its centre of mass is about 12 cm down. So let's say our X-wing pilot is flying along and does a real quick 100 G turn. Now that is 980 m/s/s, multiply by the mass and you see that 1,960 Newtons is present on the arm (which by the way is strong enough to shatter cement blocks) ... in short our poor pilot is being subjected to a force load as strong as your average karate chop ... continiously. Similar numbers exist for the head, arms, legs, etc ... and yet for all this mythic resiliancy these same pilots can be knocked around easily by normal forces.
Think about it this way, each of those pilots effectively has 1.4 kg weights hanging from each testicle during these maneveurs ... tell me do you think Wedge wouldn't be noticing THAT?
In other words if X-wing pilots "barely notice" such G-forces then EVERYTHING in SW has to be recalculated. It is not biology you are toying with ... but basic physics. If they can withstand 100g's then they can withstand a physical blow of equivalent force.
Terrorist attacks:
So terrorists wait a year or two. Damn how stupid are you? Do you think that the moment the surrender is signed people say, gee I'm going to be a terrorist and go kill themselves? Nope historically terrorism against occupation forces lags days/months/even years behind the arrival of military force. You plan on reaping economic gains from this conquest ... eventually you have to integrate these areas into your society to some degree ... when that happens you had better beleive the smugglers will be there.
The Rebellion is run by frikking idiots. They have no concept of how to conduct warfare against an enemy with much superior firepower and numbers. From having bases on Yavin and Hoth that could not be quickly and nearly completely abandoned, to not using X-wings at Hoth ... their military is incompotent.
Stormtrooper armor:
Yes again they never take it off
We've NEVER never seen Imperial officers without NBC protection on the ground
And most importantly they have never been wounded by projectiles
Jamming:
I see somebody forgot the OTHER big component to jamming ... DISTANCE. ENERGY (and hence power) decreases with the distance SQUARED. So let's say that the ISD has 1*10^25 houles/s of peak power output. Let's say SF ships get upwards of 1*10^19 joules/s. Now at 1 km away the ISD enjoys 6 orders of magnitude more power. However as its signal propogates it loses that advantage. Let's both the ISD in Earth Orbit and the SF ship coming in from behind Saturn. The ISD's signal must travel to Saturn (119,550,000 km). Its signal, upon reaching Saturn, is 1.4 * 10 ^16 times weaker than when it went out (and yes you need to use omindirectional sensors ... as the imps don't know the location of the intruder). So when the signal gets to the feddie ship it is 10 orders of magnitude less than the jamming signal. It then has to interact with the target and reflect/difract/whatever (normally another huge chunk of signal gone) and travel back.
As for blockading the Sol system .... well let's take the 5*10^8 km as the radius of the sphere to be patrolled. That translates into 3.14 * 10^18 sqaure km of surface area to control. In TESB we found that it took numerous ships to blockade a single planet, even though the knew EXACTLY (as within 20 km) where the point of origin would be. It would take every ISD in SW to blockade a single solar system. Now they might be able to use a fleet similar in size to the TESB fleet, perhaps even smaller, to blockade invidual planets ... however if they opt for this route then they are bottled up on the planet, and a simple cloaking device (which the feddies manage to replicate on DS9) will likely get a cargo drop past.
Transporters: Except for STI. Further what happens when you block sensors for a whole planet? What happens to things like air traffic control, communications, etc.?
If you do that 24/7 then you have severly handicapped any commercial ventures on said planet.
1) Your historical examples are flawed. No nation has ever faced an enemy which has no qualms with blowing a city off the map from orbit, even when they were already conquered.
Well let's look at ST, the dominion tried this ... it didn't quell the revolt. The Imperials tried this ... it didn't quell the revolt.
2) I've not seen any episode quotes.
I've specifically listed the episodes in which we've seen bioweapons. I cannot give exact quotes as I lack the relevant scripts.
I apologize for the length, but I have someone who feels saying "you are wrong" is all he needs to answer and pointing out his attempt to BS physics/biology takes post length (and no I don't claim know physics terribly well, just well enough to know that there is nothing special about G-forces).
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes.
Actually ImpInt seems to be pretty impressive in the EU. I'm pretty sure some Lusankya sleeper agents qualify as good humint capabilities. And if you knew JS about the Inquisitors, you wouldn't be so glib about their abilities. On topic, you are ignoring the fact that there are far more places to hide in the Empire then there are in the Federation. More to the point, the Imps couldn't infiltrate their main bases because only the most trusted were there. Madine and the others had to prove themselves first.tharkûn wrote:SN:
Ender:
I'm suprised no one has brought up the topic of Imperial Intellegence and how they would deal with this rebellion. Particularily the Inquisitors.
Likely as good as Imperial Intellegence was at finding the locations of Yavin and Hoth. The Imperials demonstrated humint capabilities are decidedly low. Despite the fact that the Rebellion accepts former Imperial troops into its highest ranks, the Imperials have not managed to get a single mole into Yavin or Hoth to relay the location to Tarkun or to Darth Vader. Instead they have to rely on other methods.
So, despite what it says at the beginning, you are going to disregard it in favor of what you want, Tell me, If we begin debating the Empire vs the Voth, are you going to come in saying that the Culture would blow up the Empire, simply because you choose to redefine the debate?First post said the fleet was gone. So stop trying to use them.
Tell me was the Japanese fleet gone at the end of WWII? Even if the fleet is gone individual ships often survive. There has never been a war where every single ship was destroyed.
Starfleet is gone.
Deal with it.
بيرني كان سيفوز
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Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
-
Patrick Degan
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 14847
- Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
- Location: Orleanian in exile
Starfleet is gone —deal with it
In point of fact, it was. The last surviving ships, cripples and wrecks in the repair docks, amounted to no more than a couple dozen vessels and those ended up in the Test Fleet at Bikini Atoll. Every last one of them.tharkûn wrote:First post said the fleet was gone. So stop trying to use them.
Tell me was the Japanese fleet gone at the end of WWII? Even if the fleet is gone individual ships often survive. There has never been a war where every single ship was destroyed.
There was no more Japanese Navy after the end of World War II. It had been utterly annihilated.
Ender:
Actually ImpInt seems to be pretty impressive in the EU. I'm pretty sure some Lusankya sleeper agents qualify as good humint capabilities. And if you knew JS about the Inquisitors, you wouldn't be so glib about their abilities. On topic, you are ignoring the fact that there are far more places to hide in the Empire then there are in the Federation. More to the point, the Imps couldn't infiltrate their main bases because only the most trusted were there. Madine and the others had to prove themselves first.
In the cannon its crap. Who cares if your moles have to prove themselves? This is SOP. If you don't care about collateral damage ... it works easily, just send them out with orders to aid and abet the rebels and periodically make indirect contact with HQ about what intel (if any) HQ wants.
The number of spaces is actually irrelevant. GO OUT OF THE GALACTIC PLANE. Space is big. Your ship is not. Get away from the suns and just "park" the ship in the void ... it is now officially just another peice of metallic debris. You should NEVER tie yourself to a planet in space warfare without a DAMN good reason to.
So, despite what it says at the beginning, you are going to disregard it in favor of what you want, Tell me, If we begin debating the Empire vs the Voth, are you going to come in saying that the Culture would blow up the Empire, simply because you choose to redefine the debate?
Nope the first post says:
"So really, the question is not "Could Trek stand up to the Empire" or "Could TRek at least make the battle hurt really really bad?" but rather, once the battle is over and the molten droplets of once-proud Starships hurtle into the nearest convenient gravity well, then what? "
Show me anywhere that says EVERY single ship is dead.
At the end of WWII, Japan had 23 destroyers and 2 cruisers left, not to mention submarines. This is in spite of the complete naval supremacy of the United States, the ability of the carrier groups to scour much larger percentages of the oceon than any space force could hope to maintain in space. Further Japan had no exploration ships out in the hinterlands.
If the author of the thread intended there to be NO SF ships present ... AT ALL, then he can say so.
Actually ImpInt seems to be pretty impressive in the EU. I'm pretty sure some Lusankya sleeper agents qualify as good humint capabilities. And if you knew JS about the Inquisitors, you wouldn't be so glib about their abilities. On topic, you are ignoring the fact that there are far more places to hide in the Empire then there are in the Federation. More to the point, the Imps couldn't infiltrate their main bases because only the most trusted were there. Madine and the others had to prove themselves first.
In the cannon its crap. Who cares if your moles have to prove themselves? This is SOP. If you don't care about collateral damage ... it works easily, just send them out with orders to aid and abet the rebels and periodically make indirect contact with HQ about what intel (if any) HQ wants.
The number of spaces is actually irrelevant. GO OUT OF THE GALACTIC PLANE. Space is big. Your ship is not. Get away from the suns and just "park" the ship in the void ... it is now officially just another peice of metallic debris. You should NEVER tie yourself to a planet in space warfare without a DAMN good reason to.
So, despite what it says at the beginning, you are going to disregard it in favor of what you want, Tell me, If we begin debating the Empire vs the Voth, are you going to come in saying that the Culture would blow up the Empire, simply because you choose to redefine the debate?
Nope the first post says:
"So really, the question is not "Could Trek stand up to the Empire" or "Could TRek at least make the battle hurt really really bad?" but rather, once the battle is over and the molten droplets of once-proud Starships hurtle into the nearest convenient gravity well, then what? "
Show me anywhere that says EVERY single ship is dead.
At the end of WWII, Japan had 23 destroyers and 2 cruisers left, not to mention submarines. This is in spite of the complete naval supremacy of the United States, the ability of the carrier groups to scour much larger percentages of the oceon than any space force could hope to maintain in space. Further Japan had no exploration ships out in the hinterlands.
If the author of the thread intended there to be NO SF ships present ... AT ALL, then he can say so.
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes.
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Patrick Degan
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 14847
- Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
- Location: Orleanian in exile
Inconvenient fact:
Wrecks and cripples at the repair docks —or ships rusting away in port for lack of fuel, ammunition, supplies, and crews. All of which ended up at Bikini Atoll in July, 1946.tharkûn wrote:At the end of WWII, Japan had 23 destroyers and 2 cruisers left, not to mention submarines. This is in spite of the complete naval supremacy of the United States, the ability of the carrier groups to scour much larger percentages of the oceon than any space force could hope to maintain in space. Further Japan had no exploration ships out in the hinterlands.
One navy —annihilated utterly.
Way to totally dodge the issue there. I say again: You are glossing over the shown capabilities of ImpIntel.tharkûn wrote:In the cannon its crap. Who cares if your moles have to prove themselves? This is SOP. If you don't care about collateral damage ... it works easily, just send them out with orders to aid and abet the rebels and periodically make indirect contact with HQ about what intel (if any) HQ wants.
Even if we allow for the existance of any ships, Trek can't leave the galaxy. So now you are totally inventing capabilities to try and prove your point.The number of spaces is actually irrelevant. GO OUT OF THE GALACTIC PLANE. Space is big. Your ship is not. Get away from the suns and just "park" the ship in the void ... it is now officially just another peice of metallic debris. You should NEVER tie yourself to a planet in space warfare without a DAMN good reason to.
If the author of the thread intended there to be NO SF ships present ... AT ALL, then he can say so.
That's from page 2. So he did say so, so shut the fuck up.Many good points are brought up here, but I want to clarify that StarFleet and the UFP have been effectively smashed-- that there would be NO StarFleet ships left to oppose, even the little Defiant class frigates would be trashed. Essentially, the remnants of the Federation-- humans and aliens alike-- would basically come in small teams or even as individuals in the Rebel cause.
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
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Illuminatus Primus
- All Seeing Eye
- Posts: 15774
- Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
- Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
- Contact:
Tharkun brings up some interesting points (he's wrong about the cost being so detrimental to the GE, though). He is right about the economical cost of maintaining colonies and conquests in the real world. All traditional imperialist and expansionist policies have had significant economic costs on the part of the imperialist or expansionist. The Empire is able to afford black-projects such as the Death Star with out disrupting the GDP to an observable degree (nix actual economic reports...the Imps completely held the Holonet, no one knew anything about the galaxy as a whole except what they wanted to them to know)...but evidence suggests that it was possible the Death Star existed to strengthen the Dark Side of the Force...and by extention, Palpatine. Why else build such an enormously wasteful ship when you can DBZ a planet and still eradicate the surface with enormously less expenditure.
Likewise, there's no reason to suggest the Empire would be forced to abandon conquest to due terrorism.
I doubt the Empire would go for outright conquest and total war until Borg Space arrived at the top of their campaign objectives. I think the Empire would likely set up client states and slowly but surely revert control of from the pussified satellite state-filled AQ to a couple Grand Moff-run Oversectors. There would be whackos and terrorism, there almost always is. The occasional planet would be crushed flat but it would likely be covered up or cover to saturation with propoganda until no-one could recognize the corpse of the actual event. I do not believe the Empire would waste time with the expensive and useless direct conquest option. There's simply no need. All conquests done under the Empire were strictly extremely small-scale events involving either primitive cultures, the Alliance, revolting member worlds, misbehaving client states/corperations, or alien civilizations in the UR. I doubt most of these threats are comparable (in scale) to the prospect of a direct-conquest of the Alpha Quadrant. The number of Star Destroyers maintained per sector suggests that rebellion is a serious threat in the Empire. This suggests strong ecomonic recession for non-nationalized corperate big-wigs. I can't think of any other reason for serious seperatism that would require as many SDs as a sector group does. Because of this, it would take sometime to build an efficient conquering force.
I believe the Empire is not expansionist, but actually quite isolationist at times. One wonders if Palpatine's only reason for terminating the Outbound Flight Project is to kill the Jedi Masters assigned to the aforementioned. Certainly, his Imperial Majesty did not (to our knowledge) summon later attempts to contact other galaxies but instead squashed the press and placed large numbers of ships to controlling each sector. That only leaves the question of Grand Admiral Thrawn's campaigns in the Unknown Regions as evidence of supposed Imperial expansionism.
Grand Admiral Thrawn's campiagns in the Unknown Regions were likely orchastrated by Palpatine to ensure no threat beyond the galaxy proper could threaten his stranglehold on power and to keep Thrawn out of the Imperial Court and away from anywhere he could observe Palpatine's business in the Deep Core and Byss. They were not, by any stretch of the imaginaton, direct-conquest affairs. More like "Imperialization" and forging pro-Empire alliances. Thrawn's motivation for trying to be kept assigned to such a project by Palpatine is obvious: he was building his own power base among the Chiss and contemplating future power-plays; the Hand of Thrawn is located in the Niruaan system which is virtually in the Outer Rim. When the Unknown Regions is composed primarly of the galactic halo, why would anyone have a forward defense base located within the area you'd most likely want to protect (the Chiss territory; Thrawn is a stated speciest)? This base is also apparently unequiped with extensive passive optical and active hyperwave scanning and sensor equipment as you'd expect from such a facility. Additionally, the base is staffed with fanatics and a commander who spouts rhetoric about a nebulous and unnamed threat with no evidence that sounds oddly familiar of Hitler's rants on the supposed "Bolshevik hordes" to the East. The location of the Hand of Thrawn suggests not a forward defense base against supposed extragalactic (see note on "extragalactic" below) forces but instead a paramilitary cell of supporters poised to strike against the galaxy proper should Thrawn ever order it.
This suggests that the campaigns in the Unknown Regions (which is somewhat of a misnomer...Poorly Mapped and Generally Ignored Regions, anyone?) were simply engineered by two sentient beings of considerable skill, political acumen, and ambition to protect and secure respective power bases and not to expand the field of galactic civilization (especially since Thrawn's campiagns were kept totally black.
Note: I say "extragalactic" because author Zahn states the Yuuzhan Vong were analogous to what Thrawn was supposed to be defending against; sadly I believe this retcon to be his ego at work. I realize I accepted this intention of his writing of extragalactic enemies but brush of the validity of the actual existence of those enemies. Clues throughout the NJO and in plot holes in the book itself do not support that there actually was a threat, but that Thrawn was merely protecting his power base and seeking to eventually control the galaxy itself...for the benefit of the Chiss, of course. But I have no evidence to suggest that the Chiss fanatics were not thinking they were defending against an extragalactic foe, so that remains valid in the spirit of the EU = continuity until contradicted school of thought.
Likewise, there's no reason to suggest the Empire would be forced to abandon conquest to due terrorism.
I doubt the Empire would go for outright conquest and total war until Borg Space arrived at the top of their campaign objectives. I think the Empire would likely set up client states and slowly but surely revert control of from the pussified satellite state-filled AQ to a couple Grand Moff-run Oversectors. There would be whackos and terrorism, there almost always is. The occasional planet would be crushed flat but it would likely be covered up or cover to saturation with propoganda until no-one could recognize the corpse of the actual event. I do not believe the Empire would waste time with the expensive and useless direct conquest option. There's simply no need. All conquests done under the Empire were strictly extremely small-scale events involving either primitive cultures, the Alliance, revolting member worlds, misbehaving client states/corperations, or alien civilizations in the UR. I doubt most of these threats are comparable (in scale) to the prospect of a direct-conquest of the Alpha Quadrant. The number of Star Destroyers maintained per sector suggests that rebellion is a serious threat in the Empire. This suggests strong ecomonic recession for non-nationalized corperate big-wigs. I can't think of any other reason for serious seperatism that would require as many SDs as a sector group does. Because of this, it would take sometime to build an efficient conquering force.
I believe the Empire is not expansionist, but actually quite isolationist at times. One wonders if Palpatine's only reason for terminating the Outbound Flight Project is to kill the Jedi Masters assigned to the aforementioned. Certainly, his Imperial Majesty did not (to our knowledge) summon later attempts to contact other galaxies but instead squashed the press and placed large numbers of ships to controlling each sector. That only leaves the question of Grand Admiral Thrawn's campaigns in the Unknown Regions as evidence of supposed Imperial expansionism.
Grand Admiral Thrawn's campiagns in the Unknown Regions were likely orchastrated by Palpatine to ensure no threat beyond the galaxy proper could threaten his stranglehold on power and to keep Thrawn out of the Imperial Court and away from anywhere he could observe Palpatine's business in the Deep Core and Byss. They were not, by any stretch of the imaginaton, direct-conquest affairs. More like "Imperialization" and forging pro-Empire alliances. Thrawn's motivation for trying to be kept assigned to such a project by Palpatine is obvious: he was building his own power base among the Chiss and contemplating future power-plays; the Hand of Thrawn is located in the Niruaan system which is virtually in the Outer Rim. When the Unknown Regions is composed primarly of the galactic halo, why would anyone have a forward defense base located within the area you'd most likely want to protect (the Chiss territory; Thrawn is a stated speciest)? This base is also apparently unequiped with extensive passive optical and active hyperwave scanning and sensor equipment as you'd expect from such a facility. Additionally, the base is staffed with fanatics and a commander who spouts rhetoric about a nebulous and unnamed threat with no evidence that sounds oddly familiar of Hitler's rants on the supposed "Bolshevik hordes" to the East. The location of the Hand of Thrawn suggests not a forward defense base against supposed extragalactic (see note on "extragalactic" below) forces but instead a paramilitary cell of supporters poised to strike against the galaxy proper should Thrawn ever order it.
This suggests that the campaigns in the Unknown Regions (which is somewhat of a misnomer...Poorly Mapped and Generally Ignored Regions, anyone?) were simply engineered by two sentient beings of considerable skill, political acumen, and ambition to protect and secure respective power bases and not to expand the field of galactic civilization (especially since Thrawn's campiagns were kept totally black.
Note: I say "extragalactic" because author Zahn states the Yuuzhan Vong were analogous to what Thrawn was supposed to be defending against; sadly I believe this retcon to be his ego at work. I realize I accepted this intention of his writing of extragalactic enemies but brush of the validity of the actual existence of those enemies. Clues throughout the NJO and in plot holes in the book itself do not support that there actually was a threat, but that Thrawn was merely protecting his power base and seeking to eventually control the galaxy itself...for the benefit of the Chiss, of course.
But I have no evidence to suggest that the Chiss fanatics were not thinking they were defending against an extragalactic foe, so that remains valid in the spirit of the EU = continuity until contradicted school of thought."You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
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Spanky The Dolphin
- Mammy Two-Shoes
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Illuminatus Primus
- All Seeing Eye
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Nope. Just stating opinion. I have no desire to churn quote after quote, directly repost any opponent's arguments just to post my refutation right next to it, and microargue certain words. Just my opinion.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
And Tarkun: First post said the fleet was gone. So stop trying to use them.
So are you retracting that?
Way to totally dodge the issue there. I say again: You are glossing over the shown capabilities of ImpIntel.
Nope I'm going by the fact that you have a sizeable rebel force and you have zip, zero, zilch shown in the cannon movies ... even when such resources would most definately be used. Sleepers are actually pathetic intel ...
If you want to talk EU, just how in hell does Isard get to run ImpIntel? She's a frikking moron who can't even pull off a simple kill. Loor is such a pathetic agent he offers to turn over everyone he knows to clear himself. Lara decides to ACTIVELY SABOTAGE the Imperials.
So tell me again how the Empire intends to infiltrate a terrorist organization to the degree needed to destroy it.
Even if we allow for the existance of any ships, Trek can't leave the galaxy. So now you are totally inventing capabilities to try and prove your point.
Damn you are dense. Galatic PLANE, its 2 dimensional, most of the stars lie more or less in a plane in our galaxy, some lie outside of said plane, and most certainly dust clouds lie outside that that plane. Even if you go only 1 light-year out of the galactic plane (note FAR less than the distance from Sol to Alpha Cent), you still have vastly more than enough space to hide in.
You see in reality the galaxy ends at different places depending on how you define it. Most certainly one can go outside of the plane by a small distance and still be within the mystical galaxy barrier ... the stars are not that uniformly placed.
That's from page 2. So he did say so, so shut the fuck up.
"No Starfleet ships left to oppose" no suddenly becomes all starfleet ships, including the non-combatant vessels are dead? Gee where did you get the invisible ink?
So are you retracting that?
Way to totally dodge the issue there. I say again: You are glossing over the shown capabilities of ImpIntel.
Nope I'm going by the fact that you have a sizeable rebel force and you have zip, zero, zilch shown in the cannon movies ... even when such resources would most definately be used. Sleepers are actually pathetic intel ...
If you want to talk EU, just how in hell does Isard get to run ImpIntel? She's a frikking moron who can't even pull off a simple kill. Loor is such a pathetic agent he offers to turn over everyone he knows to clear himself. Lara decides to ACTIVELY SABOTAGE the Imperials.
So tell me again how the Empire intends to infiltrate a terrorist organization to the degree needed to destroy it.
Even if we allow for the existance of any ships, Trek can't leave the galaxy. So now you are totally inventing capabilities to try and prove your point.
Damn you are dense. Galatic PLANE, its 2 dimensional, most of the stars lie more or less in a plane in our galaxy, some lie outside of said plane, and most certainly dust clouds lie outside that that plane. Even if you go only 1 light-year out of the galactic plane (note FAR less than the distance from Sol to Alpha Cent), you still have vastly more than enough space to hide in.
You see in reality the galaxy ends at different places depending on how you define it. Most certainly one can go outside of the plane by a small distance and still be within the mystical galaxy barrier ... the stars are not that uniformly placed.
That's from page 2. So he did say so, so shut the fuck up.
"No Starfleet ships left to oppose" no suddenly becomes all starfleet ships, including the non-combatant vessels are dead? Gee where did you get the invisible ink?
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes.
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Darth Wong
- Sith Lord
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Who says they have to? Terrorist organizations have been operating around the world for decades without being "destroyed", yet the countries they attack are still standing, not suffering economic or social ruin.tharkûn wrote:So tell me again how the Empire intends to infiltrate a terrorist organization to the degree needed to destroy it.
You can't infiltrate and destroy a terrorist organization easily, but you don't really need to. As long as you can keep them on the run, unable to organize, you suppress them and limit their effects, which is good enough.
PS. Also, if living conditions are good under the Empire, the terrorists will wither on the vine and eventually fade away, from the only thing that can truly kill terrorism: lack of incentive to join up. Do you think we would see Palestinian suicide bombers if Palestinians in the occupied territories weren't treated like animals?
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Illuminatus Primus
- All Seeing Eye
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Tharkun, trying to apply the Imperial Intelligence post-Endor under the administration of a moronic dictator of poor strategic abilities and general complete failure when she was in a state of superiority. The Empire truly fell under her administration. Imperial Intelligence pre-Endor under Blackhole or the Ubiqtorate was deadly, efficient, and brutally effective. You're picking and choosing when the Imps were in decline.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
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Coyote
- Rabid Monkey
- Posts: 12464
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- Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
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Tharkun, at best the only thing left in the AQ would be Runabouts and their kin; all the real combat vessels would be wiped out and those that surrendered intact would have been taken and scrapped precisely to prevent them from becoming the core of a resistance. Given the way the Empire acts, this seems quite logical.
As for, say, cargo vessels and liners, well, cargo ships in the AQ would be used for awhile but the most important runs (most income and most strategic) would be taken over by Imperials as soon as possible. Once the Imperials got the computers from the AQ broken and the star charts converted, then Kuat-made transports with crews would most likely be assigned. After all, the warp ships ar just too inefficient to be kept on the most valuable trade routes... Less important routes would limp along with AQ warp ships and traders, but will these people jump at the chance to convert their freighters to combat vessels and attack the Empire after seeing every AQ fleet wiped out?
The most these remaining frieghters and liners could do would be to courier people, messages, and weapons to various worlds-- this would only be of use on ground combats while leaving all of space in the hands of the Imperial Navy. Even if the Imperial Intel service was made up of incompetents, they would quickly be able to detect a pattern when Fed-controlled freighters dropped off cargo and then suddenly local groundlings had phasers at hand. These ships would be destroyed on sight or boarded.
Eventually, as mopping-up operartions continued, any space lane the Empire felt was neccesary for their purposes would be taken over by Imperial traders. Before you jump the gun and assume that any Han Solo type with a rep would be allowed unfettered access to the AQ, consider the paranoia of the Empire: only known and approved traders would be allowed in, and; these vessels would mostly be used to support local operartions while little would be sent back to the SW continuum. Those that did go back would stop at the wormhole (or whatever let them in) and be rigorously scanned, decontamniated, and checked. Probably cargo would be unloaded and then sent through to be picked up by other traders in the SW galaxy. The Empire is not so lax to allow intergalactic bus lines to run through unchecked.
So remaining AQ ships? Shuttles, runabouts, light freighters and what few liners would be deemed neccessary in such an occassion... but the starfleets, as I said, would be a thing of the past.
As for, say, cargo vessels and liners, well, cargo ships in the AQ would be used for awhile but the most important runs (most income and most strategic) would be taken over by Imperials as soon as possible. Once the Imperials got the computers from the AQ broken and the star charts converted, then Kuat-made transports with crews would most likely be assigned. After all, the warp ships ar just too inefficient to be kept on the most valuable trade routes... Less important routes would limp along with AQ warp ships and traders, but will these people jump at the chance to convert their freighters to combat vessels and attack the Empire after seeing every AQ fleet wiped out?
The most these remaining frieghters and liners could do would be to courier people, messages, and weapons to various worlds-- this would only be of use on ground combats while leaving all of space in the hands of the Imperial Navy. Even if the Imperial Intel service was made up of incompetents, they would quickly be able to detect a pattern when Fed-controlled freighters dropped off cargo and then suddenly local groundlings had phasers at hand. These ships would be destroyed on sight or boarded.
Eventually, as mopping-up operartions continued, any space lane the Empire felt was neccesary for their purposes would be taken over by Imperial traders. Before you jump the gun and assume that any Han Solo type with a rep would be allowed unfettered access to the AQ, consider the paranoia of the Empire: only known and approved traders would be allowed in, and; these vessels would mostly be used to support local operartions while little would be sent back to the SW continuum. Those that did go back would stop at the wormhole (or whatever let them in) and be rigorously scanned, decontamniated, and checked. Probably cargo would be unloaded and then sent through to be picked up by other traders in the SW galaxy. The Empire is not so lax to allow intergalactic bus lines to run through unchecked.
So remaining AQ ships? Shuttles, runabouts, light freighters and what few liners would be deemed neccessary in such an occassion... but the starfleets, as I said, would be a thing of the past.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
coyote:
Tharkun, at best the only thing left in the AQ would be Runabouts and their kin; all the real combat vessels would be wiped out and those that surrendered intact would have been taken and scrapped precisely to prevent them from becoming the core of a resistance. Given the way the Empire acts, this seems quite logical.
I was thinking more of the exploration, science courier, etc. Even a runabout has enough anti-matter to make numerous suicide bombs (assuming some standard scaling).
The big thing is today it takes a few thousand (say 50k) dollars to equip a nice biolab ... and access to scientific hardware suppliers. In ST the replicator can make all of this (its molecularly simple stuff). Include one or two biolabs (say from a section 31 ship, a disgruntled exploration ship or something) and the terrorists are FAR better equipped than anything we see today.
The most these remaining frieghters and liners could do would be to courier people, messages, and weapons to various worlds-- this would only be of use on ground combats while leaving all of space in the hands of the Imperial Navy. Even if the Imperial Intel service was made up of incompetents, they would quickly be able to detect a pattern when Fed-controlled freighters dropped off cargo and then suddenly local groundlings had phasers at hand. These ships would be destroyed on sight or boarded.
Only if the feddies are huge morons (a possibility). When you do an arms drop to sustained covert ops the idea is to normally not strike immediately after a drop (otherwise you risk prediction). If the feddies have regular cargo ships they can ship on ... then they can just hide materials inside of "legitimate" shipments. The amount of stuff terrorists send through the mail is already ludicrious.
Before you jump the gun and assume that any Han Solo type with a rep would be allowed unfettered access to the AQ, consider the paranoia of the Empire: only known and approved traders would be allowed in, and; these vessels would mostly be used to support local operartions while little would be sent back to the SW continuum. Those that did go back would stop at the wormhole (or whatever let them in) and be rigorously scanned, decontamniated, and checked. Probably cargo would be unloaded and then sent through to be picked up by other traders in the SW galaxy. The Empire is not so lax to allow intergalactic bus lines to run through unchecked.
That only works for a while. Eventually the smugglers make it in and if real world smuggling is any indicator ... the smugglers can use the legit liners as well.
Maintaining all that scanning, decon, etc. is only going to increase the cost of occupation and lower whatever profit you want to make on this venture.
IP:
Tharkun, trying to apply the Imperial Intelligence post-Endor under the administration of a moronic dictator of poor strategic abilities and general complete failure when she was in a state of superiority. The Empire truly fell under her administration. Imperial Intelligence pre-Endor under Blackhole or the Ubiqtorate was deadly, efficient, and brutally effective. You're picking and choosing when the Imps were in decline.
Actually I'm not. I merely said that the Empire had no one on Yavin or on Hoth even though the Rebels recruited Imperial defectors. Despite an enemy base with thousands of soldiers present ImpIntel had no one able to tell them the location. Somebody else brought up Lusankya and that is simply not evidence of a good intel operation.
If you don't have moles in a rebellion which actively recruits from your officer pool ... then your humint is lacking. In the real world the hard organizations to get into are those with VERY restrictive recruitment. How long would Al Queada remain intact if they took ex-US marines?
Who says they have to? Terrorist organizations have been operating around the world for decades without being "destroyed", yet the countries they attack are still standing, not suffering economic or social ruin.
Well let's see:
Israel has contracting GDP because its terrorists and counterterrorism efforts.
The US decided the Phillipines weren't worth the bother. Ditto for Brits in Palestine.
Nevermind that only a handful of terrorist organizations have tried their hand at bioweapons. Nevermind that no terrorist organization has access to kilotonne explosives.
There are three reasons to occupy territory:
1. Economic
2. Strategic
3. Political
4. Religious/cultural/nationalistic
Only in the first can you derive a simple formula for the effectiveness of occupation. If the costs of occupation are greater than the costs of getting out ... you get out or you are an idiot.
In the second you need to see how much that strategic location is worth. How much is UK occupation of Gibralter worth? In WWII it was terribly important. This is one of the more common reasons to occupy territory ... you have some security concern so you want to hold a chokepoint, some buffer ground, whatever.
The 3rd is completely unpredictable.
The 4th, well in that case you can just chuck sanity out the window.
You can't infiltrate and destroy a terrorist organization easily, but you don't really need to. As long as you can keep them on the run, unable to organize, you suppress them and limit their effects, which is good enough.
That is actually what I mean when I say destroy them, it takes a large number of moles, informants, and intelligence to eviscerate a terrorist organization. The UK tried this for years with the IRA, but it didn't work until after decades of turning the network inside out and then making a slew of concessions (and even after that the RIRA had their day).
PS. Also, if living conditions are good under the Empire, the terrorists will wither on the vine and eventually fade away, from the only thing that can truly kill terrorism: lack of incentive to join up. Do you think we would see Palestinian suicide bombers if Palestinians in the occupied territories weren't treated like animals?
Hell yes. Per capita Palestinian income was higher in the palestinian territories than in neighboring Jordan. Jobs in Israel were greatly elevating Palestinian standard of living. In the PA territories after Oslo, Palestinians had more political freedom than Palestinians anywhere in the Middle East.
It's a myth that bombers are an artifact of being poor/disadvantaged. the average bomber in the US is:
A white(74%) middle class (74%) young (23 or less) male (>99%) with a stable job (60%) and a mean IQ of 111. Likewise your average Palestinian suicide bomber has academic education, is middle class or higher, and is beleived to be more intelligent than the rest of the population.
Or take your 'celebrity' terrorists.
You have the multi-millionaire born into one of the most powerful families in the world. His quality of life was second to none. Meet Osama bin Ladin
You have the PhD chemist out of the University of Michigan. Described as truly brilliant by his colleagues. He lived a life better than the majority of the world and was your typical WASP. Meet the Unibomber.
You have the Polish immigrant who attended Hebrew University, won a scholarship to the University of Florence. Meet Abraham Stern.
Your average terrorist, and your most widely recognized ones are NOT the products of poor standard of living. They on average they tend to be slightly better off than average, but by and large they a diverse cross section of society. Standard of living has far less to do with terrorism than political identity. Jews in Mandatory Palestine had wonderful lives, especially compared to say Jews in Europe or Arabs the in the surrounding territories ... yet they still took up terrorism, even killing people who aided the flight of Jews from Nazi death.
So now that I'm out of hot air, yes indeed I do expect Palestinian suicide bombers even if their quality of life continued to go up and they received even more political parity. It isn't about quality of life (Quwait expelled loads of Palestinians without suffering a terrorist backlash) nor even just religion (Sheik Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah al Sheik, supreme religious leader of Saudia Arabia, said that suicide bombings are not allowed in Islam). The biggest thing is a sense of political identity, a sense of justice ... neither of which an ISD in orbit pummelling cities is going to bring about. Some people will fight just to have political independance/autonomy, many more will fight out of revenge for fallen friends/family/leaders if you seek reprisals.
Tharkun, at best the only thing left in the AQ would be Runabouts and their kin; all the real combat vessels would be wiped out and those that surrendered intact would have been taken and scrapped precisely to prevent them from becoming the core of a resistance. Given the way the Empire acts, this seems quite logical.
I was thinking more of the exploration, science courier, etc. Even a runabout has enough anti-matter to make numerous suicide bombs (assuming some standard scaling).
The big thing is today it takes a few thousand (say 50k) dollars to equip a nice biolab ... and access to scientific hardware suppliers. In ST the replicator can make all of this (its molecularly simple stuff). Include one or two biolabs (say from a section 31 ship, a disgruntled exploration ship or something) and the terrorists are FAR better equipped than anything we see today.
The most these remaining frieghters and liners could do would be to courier people, messages, and weapons to various worlds-- this would only be of use on ground combats while leaving all of space in the hands of the Imperial Navy. Even if the Imperial Intel service was made up of incompetents, they would quickly be able to detect a pattern when Fed-controlled freighters dropped off cargo and then suddenly local groundlings had phasers at hand. These ships would be destroyed on sight or boarded.
Only if the feddies are huge morons (a possibility). When you do an arms drop to sustained covert ops the idea is to normally not strike immediately after a drop (otherwise you risk prediction). If the feddies have regular cargo ships they can ship on ... then they can just hide materials inside of "legitimate" shipments. The amount of stuff terrorists send through the mail is already ludicrious.
Before you jump the gun and assume that any Han Solo type with a rep would be allowed unfettered access to the AQ, consider the paranoia of the Empire: only known and approved traders would be allowed in, and; these vessels would mostly be used to support local operartions while little would be sent back to the SW continuum. Those that did go back would stop at the wormhole (or whatever let them in) and be rigorously scanned, decontamniated, and checked. Probably cargo would be unloaded and then sent through to be picked up by other traders in the SW galaxy. The Empire is not so lax to allow intergalactic bus lines to run through unchecked.
That only works for a while. Eventually the smugglers make it in and if real world smuggling is any indicator ... the smugglers can use the legit liners as well.
Maintaining all that scanning, decon, etc. is only going to increase the cost of occupation and lower whatever profit you want to make on this venture.
IP:
Tharkun, trying to apply the Imperial Intelligence post-Endor under the administration of a moronic dictator of poor strategic abilities and general complete failure when she was in a state of superiority. The Empire truly fell under her administration. Imperial Intelligence pre-Endor under Blackhole or the Ubiqtorate was deadly, efficient, and brutally effective. You're picking and choosing when the Imps were in decline.
Actually I'm not. I merely said that the Empire had no one on Yavin or on Hoth even though the Rebels recruited Imperial defectors. Despite an enemy base with thousands of soldiers present ImpIntel had no one able to tell them the location. Somebody else brought up Lusankya and that is simply not evidence of a good intel operation.
If you don't have moles in a rebellion which actively recruits from your officer pool ... then your humint is lacking. In the real world the hard organizations to get into are those with VERY restrictive recruitment. How long would Al Queada remain intact if they took ex-US marines?
Who says they have to? Terrorist organizations have been operating around the world for decades without being "destroyed", yet the countries they attack are still standing, not suffering economic or social ruin.
Well let's see:
Israel has contracting GDP because its terrorists and counterterrorism efforts.
The US decided the Phillipines weren't worth the bother. Ditto for Brits in Palestine.
Nevermind that only a handful of terrorist organizations have tried their hand at bioweapons. Nevermind that no terrorist organization has access to kilotonne explosives.
There are three reasons to occupy territory:
1. Economic
2. Strategic
3. Political
4. Religious/cultural/nationalistic
Only in the first can you derive a simple formula for the effectiveness of occupation. If the costs of occupation are greater than the costs of getting out ... you get out or you are an idiot.
In the second you need to see how much that strategic location is worth. How much is UK occupation of Gibralter worth? In WWII it was terribly important. This is one of the more common reasons to occupy territory ... you have some security concern so you want to hold a chokepoint, some buffer ground, whatever.
The 3rd is completely unpredictable.
The 4th, well in that case you can just chuck sanity out the window.
You can't infiltrate and destroy a terrorist organization easily, but you don't really need to. As long as you can keep them on the run, unable to organize, you suppress them and limit their effects, which is good enough.
That is actually what I mean when I say destroy them, it takes a large number of moles, informants, and intelligence to eviscerate a terrorist organization. The UK tried this for years with the IRA, but it didn't work until after decades of turning the network inside out and then making a slew of concessions (and even after that the RIRA had their day).
PS. Also, if living conditions are good under the Empire, the terrorists will wither on the vine and eventually fade away, from the only thing that can truly kill terrorism: lack of incentive to join up. Do you think we would see Palestinian suicide bombers if Palestinians in the occupied territories weren't treated like animals?
Hell yes. Per capita Palestinian income was higher in the palestinian territories than in neighboring Jordan. Jobs in Israel were greatly elevating Palestinian standard of living. In the PA territories after Oslo, Palestinians had more political freedom than Palestinians anywhere in the Middle East.
It's a myth that bombers are an artifact of being poor/disadvantaged. the average bomber in the US is:
A white(74%) middle class (74%) young (23 or less) male (>99%) with a stable job (60%) and a mean IQ of 111. Likewise your average Palestinian suicide bomber has academic education, is middle class or higher, and is beleived to be more intelligent than the rest of the population.
Or take your 'celebrity' terrorists.
You have the multi-millionaire born into one of the most powerful families in the world. His quality of life was second to none. Meet Osama bin Ladin
You have the PhD chemist out of the University of Michigan. Described as truly brilliant by his colleagues. He lived a life better than the majority of the world and was your typical WASP. Meet the Unibomber.
You have the Polish immigrant who attended Hebrew University, won a scholarship to the University of Florence. Meet Abraham Stern.
Your average terrorist, and your most widely recognized ones are NOT the products of poor standard of living. They on average they tend to be slightly better off than average, but by and large they a diverse cross section of society. Standard of living has far less to do with terrorism than political identity. Jews in Mandatory Palestine had wonderful lives, especially compared to say Jews in Europe or Arabs the in the surrounding territories ... yet they still took up terrorism, even killing people who aided the flight of Jews from Nazi death.
So now that I'm out of hot air, yes indeed I do expect Palestinian suicide bombers even if their quality of life continued to go up and they received even more political parity. It isn't about quality of life (Quwait expelled loads of Palestinians without suffering a terrorist backlash) nor even just religion (Sheik Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah al Sheik, supreme religious leader of Saudia Arabia, said that suicide bombings are not allowed in Islam). The biggest thing is a sense of political identity, a sense of justice ... neither of which an ISD in orbit pummelling cities is going to bring about. Some people will fight just to have political independance/autonomy, many more will fight out of revenge for fallen friends/family/leaders if you seek reprisals.
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes.