"Armor" in SW and ST

[Darth Wong]

Uh they were being fired at very primitive slugthrowers Tuskans use, not high tech projectile rifles like Zam used in Episode II. We see the slugs in Episode 1 being fired on the Pod Racers. They exactly do more then slighty scratch Anies pod. Which I dobut is armoured.

I haven't seen the movie for a long while, but I don't recall any hitting Anakin's Podracer.

One of them glances off Anakin's podracer, but the angle of incidence is probably very sharp, so that's not a surprise. One of those shots takes out a podracer elsewhere in the race.

[Stewart at SDI]

Even the origional M-16 was and still is a fine rifle. All of the problems associated with it's deployment were operational and training issues. The thought that it would not require cleaning was wrong and not in acordance with the origional specifications. I had one of the very first ones issued and mine never failed to work as desired, because I kept it clean. My only issue was with it's killing power, wich fell off rapidly beyond 100-150M. That is why I went back to the M-14E2/M-21.

When the first gen rifle is used in accordance with the current doctorine, it functions just fine and is incredably reliable, more so than any of it's conventional competiters. The current gen weapon is slightly more reliable and functions with different ammo that has much supirior armor pennitration.

None of it's non-clone competiters can match it's acuracy, reliability and ergonomics.

[Knife]

This concerns ROTJ and ST:FC. Why is it that "body armor" in some sci-fi seems next to useless against...anything? I mean, in ROTJ, we saw the ewoks taking down stormies with arrows and slingshot-hurled stones, and
in FC, Picard perforated two Borg with a holographic '30s-era Thompson SMG (a weapon that can easily be stopped by Level-IIIA and possibly Level II body armor). The Star Trek borg armor (I can't think of any other purpose for those bulky exoskelital suits the Borg wear) is probably of worse quality, since it is is much thicker than stormie armor. So why this useless armor? Since DW's calculations have proven beyond reasonable doubt how powerful SW starships are compared the ST ships, why has personal protection in SW not advanced at a similar as well? If it had, wouldn't the stormies on Endor just have been able to laugh at the Ewok's primitive weapons? (of course the Federation is even worse, in that they do not give any protection at all to their troops)

Well, you have to look at what the body armor is designed to do and what it is designed to defend against.

Looking at ST, there is plenty of instances where cheesy, flimsy cargo boxes or other such items have been effective in stopping phaser fire from penetrating and hitting personel behind it.

So if your develping armor against phasers, it might very well be thin and flimsy in nature but able to resist or partialy negate phaser fire but the flimsy nature of the armor would be ineffective against kenitic attacks.

The same for SW armor. The primary weapon is a blaster, so armor designed for use would be primarily designed to protect against reasonable sized blaster bolts.

Another way to look at it is cost/benifit analaysis. In modern times, US troops have second chance vests that can stop alot of small arms fire. But only a decade or so ago, only flac jackets were available. These type of body armor wouldn't protect against small arms fire, but would be useful against fragments and such from various weapons.

Why a flac jacket instead of body armor? Because the technology to make an effective second chance vest that could resist small arms firer was capable, yet to heavy and bulky for troops to wear in the field. On top of that, combat statistics showed that a majority of wounded were wounded via flac and fragments thrown in the air by gernades, mortors, artillery, ect....

So why you could armor SW and ST troops against everything (more or less) it comes down to what threat is that trooper going to come up against the most and how to limit or negate that threat. It makes little sense these days to armor our troops against bows and arrows or swords and lances, its not like we couldn't, by why?

[Isolder74]

They did appear to use some form of body armor in TOS mivie Era as several times security personel were seen with a chest plate attached to their uniform. See in the background in TMP TWOK and TUC. So at one time the Federation did employ a type of flack jacket for their redshirts.

[Ma Deuce]

None of it's non-clone competiters can match it's acuracy, reliability and ergonomics.

Not to mention cost-effectivness. I think the G36 probably it's best competetor...

[Lucius Licinius Lucullus]

All of the problems associated with it's deployment were operational and training issues.

Thats the problem with it.

[Knife]

All of the problems associated with it's deployment were operational and training issues.

Thats the problem with it.

Actualy, the training part was BS. No matter what weapon you have, you should field strip it and clean it. The carbon build up was a small problem with the original A1 but was the first thing adressed with the A2.

The tri-burst is actualy superior to fully automatic in the combat role of the M16. If you need supressive fire, you carry a SAW or other LMG or MMG. The M16's tri-burst is there because the third round on most auto rifles is the round that begins to drop off target because of recoil, I say drop but it actualy goes up because of the barrel rising due to recoil.

No matter how strong you are or how good you are, the third round starts dropping. With a tri-burst, two rounds go on target and the third drops slightly. If an automatic did it, the fourth goes even higher and by five, the rounds are either off target or you get a less effective shot on target.

This also screws up the ordinate of the trajectory and you loose any sort of effective grazing fire and you develope gaps in your field of fire and create dead zones. *shurgs* On a more strategic level, anyways.

[Sea Skimmer]

Actualy, the training part was BS. No matter what weapon you have, you should field strip it and clean it. The carbon build up was a small problem with the original A1 but was the first thing adressed with the A2.

The tri-burst is actualy superior to fully automatic in the combat role of the M16. If you need supressive fire, you carry a SAW or other LMG or MMG. The M16's tri-burst is there because the third round on most auto rifles is the round that begins to drop off target because of recoil, I say drop but it actualy goes up because of the barrel rising due to recoil.

No matter how strong you are or how good you are, the third round starts dropping. With a tri-burst, two rounds go on target and the third drops slightly. If an automatic did it, the fourth goes even higher and by five, the rounds are either off target or you get a less effective shot on target.

This also screws up the ordinate of the trajectory and you loose any sort of effective grazing fire and you develope gaps in your field of fire and create dead zones. *shurgs* On a more strategic level, anyways.

Thing is, having a three round burst setting makes the weapon more complex, the US Army found that a large number of probules with M16's jamming can be linked to it, which is a major reason why the XM8 is going to fully automatic fire. The need to spray fire in room clearing apparently is the other part of it.

[buzz_knox]

That is why I went back to the M-14E2/M-21

If memory serves, the M14E2 and the M21 were two distinct weapons. The E2 was a failed attempt to make the M14 a viable automatic rifle and saw limited service as a BAR replacement. The M21 is a sniper variant and would not be issued as a primary rifle except to a sniper or, today, a designated marksman. Neither weapon would have been available as a replacement for an M-16.

[buzz_knox]

Thing is, having a three round burst setting makes the weapon more complex, the US Army found that a large number of probules with M16's jamming can be linked to it, which is a major reason why the XM8 is going to fully automatic fire. The need to spray fire in room clearing apparently is the other part of it.

Actually, it's the crappy burst mechanism in the A2 that causes the problem, not the burst itself.

As for needing "spray fire" for room cleaning, automatic fire of a rifle caliber weapon is usually considered as fundamentally useless in every scenario except breaking an ambush. A 5.56mm weapon can be controlled in full auto using proper technique, but semi-automatic fire is more efficient and precise.

[Stewart at SDI]

The great thing about the M-16 in all it's varianta and some of it's competiters is that the recoil impuls is so low that almost any well trained person, including my 10 year old son at the time could fire off whole magazines and keep the whole burst on a standard "E" type siloet target.

This was caused by two things, the impinging gas system had a low inertia and the "straight line" stock configuration.

Acording to Col. Jeff Cooper, the Styer AUG is the best of the "Poodle Shooters" as he calls them. See his column in the last page of a gun magasine. I can't remember the title but if you look at them all in the store you can find the right one then go online to read all of his articles.

I personaly prefered the armorer converted -A2 with out the burst trigger. By simple parts substitution, it made the trigger much better and it was just the edge that you needed to shoot realy tight groups. In interservice matches the Gremans from GSG-9 were never able to beat us with any of the roller locked HK guns. But we used to split when we let them use our spairs. They used to moan about our "unfair advantage"! The standard M-16 was marginaly more accurate than the M-14. But did not hold a patch to the M-21. Most of the AK varients that I have used were attrosious with groupe sizes between 5-8" I have never seen nore heard of an M-14 or -16 that would shoot -3" groupes when cleen. Most would do much better. Vary few of the rifles in any body elses army will shoot this well. (3")

The M-14 was terrible on full auto. I have never lost a bet that anyone could empty a full 20 round mag and keep all the shots on a standard tank target (20'*10') from 100M.

Back to the armor debate. The best post I have seen is about cost effectivness of armor some number of posts before this. It would be theoreticaly imposable to armor a person or any thing else for that mater against type specific threats.

If the armor were made of some special new stuff, call it Unobtainium, that could stop any current projectile by virtue of it's strength, which is how all armor works, then all that you would have to do is use Unobtainium bullets. Or perhaps Unobtainium linners for your Blaster's micro shaped charge. The energy density of current weapons/projectiles is already between one and two orders of magnatude greater that of all known elements and combinations thereof that could be employed as armor. Shaped charge jet ED is between two and three orders of magnatude greater than any concievable armor.

Armor can only protect you against lessor threats never the greater ones. From the effects shown in the movies, I suspect that Storm Trouper "armor" is designed to support NBC protective devices and sensors, but not any serious threat.

Sincerely, Stewart.

[Ma Deuce]

Acording to Col. Jeff Cooper, the Styer AUG is the best of the "Poodle Shooters" as he calls them. See his column in the last page of a gun magasine. I can't remember the title but if you look at them all in the store you can find the right one then go online to read all of his articles.

I assume "poodle shooter" is another name for a bullpup rifle?

[buzz_knox]

Acording to Col. Jeff Cooper, the Styer AUG is the best of the "Poodle Shooters" as he calls them. See his column in the last page of a gun magasine. I can't remember the title but if you look at them all in the store you can find the right one then go online to read all of his articles.

I assume "poodle shooter" is another name for a bullpup rifle?

No. Poodle shooter was a derogatory term for "small bore" assualt rifles. The rest of the joke is that you could only shoot a poodle with them. As for the Steyr AUG, it has a little problem in that lack of an actual trigger guard led to an inordinate amount of negligent discharges. Cooper's commentaries can be found on-line or in Guns & Ammo.

[Ma Deuce]

No. Poodle shooter was a derogatory term for "small bore" assualt rifles. The rest of the joke is that you could only shoot a poodle with them. As for the Steyr AUG, it has a little problem in that lack of an actual trigger guard led to an inordinate amount of negligent discharges. Cooper's commentaries can be found on-line or in Guns & Ammo.

The AUG's other problems are indemic to most bullpup rifles:
*Trigger requires more pull, and has a "rough" movement due to very long trigger bar. This can affect first-shot accuracy.

*Since the action is much further back than with a "canventional" assault rifle, the center of gravity is also further back, which can affect controllability in full-auto

*The spent-case ejector is so far back that the rifle cannot be fired left-handed without getting spent casings spat in your face. In order for the rifle to be used left-handed, you must replace the bolt so that the cases will eject out the other side (cannot be done in the field). This can also present special challanges when firing around corners (in order for a "right hand" rifle to be fired around a corner to the left, the firer must expose his whole upper torso, rather than simply his head and arms).

*Bullpups cannot use high-capacity "CMAG" magazines, since the magazine well is so far back, it would not be practical to hold or fire the rifle with one in place. This limits the rifle's usefullness in an LMG configuration.

Although the AUG has no other major drawbacks, it's nice to see the US army had enough sense not to select a bullpup as the M16's replacement...

[Sea Skimmer]

Actually, it's the crappy burst mechanism in the A2 that causes the problem, not the burst itself.

That's what I was saying

As for needing "spray fire" for room cleaning, automatic fire of a rifle caliber weapon is usually considered as fundamentally useless in every scenario except breaking an ambush. A 5.56mm weapon can be controlled in full auto using proper technique, but semi-automatic fire is more efficient and precise.

You don't really have time for precise shooting when the enemy is a couple feet away and quickly roecvering from the grenade you just threw in the room.

[Knife]

You don't really have time for precise shooting when the enemy is a couple feet away and quickly roecvering from the grenade you just threw in the room.

If you threw a flashbang, chances are you're trying not to fuck someone/something up, in which case a spray and pray with auto fire is not a good idea.

Besides, at close range like that, the good old trick of pointing with your left hand to the target works like a charm (cheap too).

[Enigma]

The resident Borg-phile made an interesting point recently - that if the Borg cannot defend against physical attacks, that they would then be pretty much incapable of assimilating primitive or intelligent cultures.

Sure, in ST all the major powers are dumb enough to not notice the pattern, but the borg could never have assilimated the Roman empire, for instance. Surely SOMEONE in the galaxy still uses slugthrowers? This seems to suggest that the energy/physical thing might be more complex than we imagine... although its hard to see how since Worfs Knife can slice drones up.

It may have been covered already, but in ST:FC, didn't the E-E find that the Borg already assimilated 21st century Earth when they entered the time stream(or whatever it is called)? If so, would the people on earth still be using projectile weapons?

[YT300000]

The resident Borg-phile made an interesting point recently - that if the Borg cannot defend against physical attacks, that they would then be pretty much incapable of assimilating primitive or intelligent cultures.

Sure, in ST all the major powers are dumb enough to not notice the pattern, but the borg could never have assilimated the Roman empire, for instance. Surely SOMEONE in the galaxy still uses slugthrowers? This seems to suggest that the energy/physical thing might be more complex than we imagine... although its hard to see how since Worfs Knife can slice drones up.

It may have been covered already, but in ST:FC, didn't the E-E find that the Borg already assimilated 21st century Earth when they entered the time stream(or whatever it is called)? If so, would the people on earth still be using projectile weapons?

Yes, as seen by Lily's use of an M-16.

[Isolder74]

too bad they didn't bring it with her

[Ma Deuce]

Yes, as seen by Lily's use of an M-16.

That was an M16? (it's been quite a while since I saw the film cuz' I lost the disk, so I don't remember too well).
BTW, did anyone notice how the weapon went *click-click-click-click* (in full-auto) after it had run out of ammo? Hehehe, stupid Hollywood movies .

[Kurgan]

Examining the film evidence and reading the explanations on this site, I pretty much buy into the whole theory of ST armor.

The only instance that throws me and hurts the theory IMHO is the scene where Leia shoves (I won't say "hits" more like she just shoves into him) a Scout trooper in the chest and he goes down and stays down.

I mean... whaaa??

Though I guess she could have been unconsciously putting The Force into her attack, like she did against Jabba earlier. Yeah, that's the ticket...!

[Kurgan]

Oops, forgot three words. That should be: shoves "with a wooden stick"...

[Kurgan]

four words! Dang lack of edit... ; )

[Enigma]

<snip>
Yes, as seen by Lily's use of an M-16.

But wouldn't that show that the Borg had success against such weapon? I mean, several billion humans (many with projectile weapons) against a few measly Borg drones?

Surely the Borg have some sort of defense against projectile weapons?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

<snip>
Yes, as seen by Lily's use of an M-16.

But wouldn't that show that the Borg had success against such weapon? I mean, several billion humans (many with projectile weapons) against a few measly Borg drones?

Surely the Borg have some sort of defense against projectile weapons?

I bet it was sheer numbers and disorganization among the humans.