Yet another lightsaber thread
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- Slartibartfast
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Yet another lightsaber thread
Okay, I want to try and give my opinion about lightsaber combat so far in the Classic and Prequel trilogies. Then I'd like you to tell me your opinion about which is better (both combat-wise and film-wise)
1) ANH: Darth Vader vs Obi Wan - I guess it was ok, Obi's 360º was a bit too much (he took like 15 seconds to turn around while Vader yawned). Can't complain much because it was a really low budget and stuff, and that guy was old. They exchange a few insults ("how appropriate, you fight like a cow" and so and so)
2) ESB: Vader vs. Luke - while Luke was mostly the victim here, yet he managed to score a couple hits, I think there was a lot of emotion here, a feeling of danger. Here we see that lightsaber can't cut thru anything like butter: there's definitely feedback when hitting solid matter, specially armor like Vader's suit. Luke gets his hand chopped because he allowed himself to be cornered, and was a novice. Vader constantly teases and talks to Luke.
3) ROTJ: Vader vs. Luke again - this time Luke is a better fighter than before, in the end he cuts Vader's hand in a nearly identical position. He wins because he allows himself to feel angry. The Emperor teases, Luke teases. We see the lightsaber bounce a couple of times against railings, we see that when two sabers are in contact they don't just bounce but you can actually push harder than the other and push his saber away (like Luke did when he was angry). Again, there was a lot of motivation in this scene. It was like the participants actually cared.
4) TPM: Darth Maul vs. Qui Gon and young Obi Wan - extremely flashy battle. Lots of jumps and twirls, blocking backwards, Maul's double-edged saber, etc. Nobody knows why they are fighting: apparently just because one's the bad guy and the others are good guys. The blades barely touch each other before withdrawing - there's no exertion of force at all when they are in contact, just a slight tap.
5) AOTC: I have to talk about some scenes separately:
- Lots of Jedi's vs Lots of Robots: ok, these Jedis were just dancing around everywhere and most of the time Obi Wan was deflecting blasts that weren't even going to hit him, just to show off with his Conan-like swordspins.
- Mace vs. Jango Fett: frankly, I think this part sucked. It was neat watching Jango launch flames at Mace forcing him to jump, and it's ok that Mace had to kill him, but I would have really wanted Jango to give a bit more resistance instead of simply getting beheaded like a lamb to the slaughterhouse.
- Obi Wan vs Count Blackula (er, Dooku): normal battle, yeah it would have been useful to teach that lightning-absorb technique to his students like Anakin and Luke. WTF with Dooku's victory? Was Obi's shirt too dense for the lightsaber to completely penetrate!? Maybe Dooku was trying to knight him.
- Anakin vs. Dooku: should have lasted longer. Battle with two lightsabers, was neat but quite innefectual.
- Yoda vs. Dooku: I must admit that I liked the fight, but only because I was laughing my ass off. The entire theather was laughing. What was more laughable was that after jumping everywhere Matrix-like, Yoda took his cane and started limping again.
- Miss Piggy vs Dooku... okay not really. C'mon, does EVERYONE want to fight Count Dooku in this movie?
Looks like I'm biased, but I actually thought that the Luke vs. Vader battles where much better, there was motivation, they looked like they actually wanted to hit each other instead of just touching sabers against each other, and it didn't seem to me like it was a cripple fighting a farm boy.
OTOH, the prequel fights all are overly flashy, IMO. Mostly they don't seem like they have a reason to fight (other than they have to get the bad guy) and who wins or loses is mostly irrelevant.
So, anyone thinks like me? Who disagrees? Etc...
1) ANH: Darth Vader vs Obi Wan - I guess it was ok, Obi's 360º was a bit too much (he took like 15 seconds to turn around while Vader yawned). Can't complain much because it was a really low budget and stuff, and that guy was old. They exchange a few insults ("how appropriate, you fight like a cow" and so and so)
2) ESB: Vader vs. Luke - while Luke was mostly the victim here, yet he managed to score a couple hits, I think there was a lot of emotion here, a feeling of danger. Here we see that lightsaber can't cut thru anything like butter: there's definitely feedback when hitting solid matter, specially armor like Vader's suit. Luke gets his hand chopped because he allowed himself to be cornered, and was a novice. Vader constantly teases and talks to Luke.
3) ROTJ: Vader vs. Luke again - this time Luke is a better fighter than before, in the end he cuts Vader's hand in a nearly identical position. He wins because he allows himself to feel angry. The Emperor teases, Luke teases. We see the lightsaber bounce a couple of times against railings, we see that when two sabers are in contact they don't just bounce but you can actually push harder than the other and push his saber away (like Luke did when he was angry). Again, there was a lot of motivation in this scene. It was like the participants actually cared.
4) TPM: Darth Maul vs. Qui Gon and young Obi Wan - extremely flashy battle. Lots of jumps and twirls, blocking backwards, Maul's double-edged saber, etc. Nobody knows why they are fighting: apparently just because one's the bad guy and the others are good guys. The blades barely touch each other before withdrawing - there's no exertion of force at all when they are in contact, just a slight tap.
5) AOTC: I have to talk about some scenes separately:
- Lots of Jedi's vs Lots of Robots: ok, these Jedis were just dancing around everywhere and most of the time Obi Wan was deflecting blasts that weren't even going to hit him, just to show off with his Conan-like swordspins.
- Mace vs. Jango Fett: frankly, I think this part sucked. It was neat watching Jango launch flames at Mace forcing him to jump, and it's ok that Mace had to kill him, but I would have really wanted Jango to give a bit more resistance instead of simply getting beheaded like a lamb to the slaughterhouse.
- Obi Wan vs Count Blackula (er, Dooku): normal battle, yeah it would have been useful to teach that lightning-absorb technique to his students like Anakin and Luke. WTF with Dooku's victory? Was Obi's shirt too dense for the lightsaber to completely penetrate!? Maybe Dooku was trying to knight him.
- Anakin vs. Dooku: should have lasted longer. Battle with two lightsabers, was neat but quite innefectual.
- Yoda vs. Dooku: I must admit that I liked the fight, but only because I was laughing my ass off. The entire theather was laughing. What was more laughable was that after jumping everywhere Matrix-like, Yoda took his cane and started limping again.
- Miss Piggy vs Dooku... okay not really. C'mon, does EVERYONE want to fight Count Dooku in this movie?
Looks like I'm biased, but I actually thought that the Luke vs. Vader battles where much better, there was motivation, they looked like they actually wanted to hit each other instead of just touching sabers against each other, and it didn't seem to me like it was a cripple fighting a farm boy.
OTOH, the prequel fights all are overly flashy, IMO. Mostly they don't seem like they have a reason to fight (other than they have to get the bad guy) and who wins or loses is mostly irrelevant.
So, anyone thinks like me? Who disagrees? Etc...
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- SMAKIBBFB
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This has been done to death on ASVS (and here I think), but...
A realistic lightsaber fight would be very boring to watch and over in milli-seconds a la a kendo duel. One hit and the other persons gone. Its all about the lead-up in reality.
Personally I think that if I was a Jedi I would be using all my neat-o jumps and speed and combat sense as well as an asian sword technique (fencing is good, but not THAT good in this kind of circumstance). As such the prequels are a much better example of what lightsaber fighting would look like.
Also in the original trilogy Luke hasn't been trained in combat techniques, Vader isn't trying to kill him, Obi-wan is old and well, yeah...
A realistic lightsaber fight would be very boring to watch and over in milli-seconds a la a kendo duel. One hit and the other persons gone. Its all about the lead-up in reality.
Personally I think that if I was a Jedi I would be using all my neat-o jumps and speed and combat sense as well as an asian sword technique (fencing is good, but not THAT good in this kind of circumstance). As such the prequels are a much better example of what lightsaber fighting would look like.
Also in the original trilogy Luke hasn't been trained in combat techniques, Vader isn't trying to kill him, Obi-wan is old and well, yeah...
- Stormbringer
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Here's an excellent site for discussion of lightsabres and the tactics of the main characters:
http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/ls/sabres.htm
I agree with you that the original trilogy had better duels. They were so much more personal and they had a sense of intimacy between the participants. It's a matter a motivation. The new trilogy are flashier but lacking with regards to emotional heft.
I'm really hoping that they recapture some of that when Anakin and Obi-wan duel. I'll be very disappointed if its onne of these eye candy but no heart duels. Very disappointed indeed.
http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/ls/sabres.htm
I agree with you that the original trilogy had better duels. They were so much more personal and they had a sense of intimacy between the participants. It's a matter a motivation. The new trilogy are flashier but lacking with regards to emotional heft.
I'm really hoping that they recapture some of that when Anakin and Obi-wan duel. I'll be very disappointed if its onne of these eye candy but no heart duels. Very disappointed indeed.
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The Original Trilogy was better all around.
Better lightsaber duels.
Better love story. (Anakin and Padme's relationship just seems so rushed. Like they are being pushed together.)
Better land AND air battles. (I mean, come on, TPM's air battle sucked.)
Someone needs to knock George upside the head and go "Hey, what the fuck happened? Did you forget how to write a story?"
Better lightsaber duels.
Better love story. (Anakin and Padme's relationship just seems so rushed. Like they are being pushed together.)
Better land AND air battles. (I mean, come on, TPM's air battle sucked.)
Someone needs to knock George upside the head and go "Hey, what the fuck happened? Did you forget how to write a story?"
I loved the Saber Duel in ROTJ, so full of passion and the music makes it even better.
The Maul -v- Qui Gon & Obi Wan was the best thing in an other wise poor movie
But over all i wanna see MORE duels in part 3. I wanna see more double-ended Light Sabers. Bring in Palpys dark jedi
But most importantly i wanna know how Yoda did what he did, like was he conserving his strength or something?
The Maul -v- Qui Gon & Obi Wan was the best thing in an other wise poor movie
But over all i wanna see MORE duels in part 3. I wanna see more double-ended Light Sabers. Bring in Palpys dark jedi
But most importantly i wanna know how Yoda did what he did, like was he conserving his strength or something?
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Except that whole Luke-Leia incest thing kind of balances of the Han-Leia angle. And I do believe that Leia's kiss for Luke is one of the most disturbing moments still on film.Kelly Antilles wrote: Better love story. (Anakin and Padme's relationship just seems so rushed. Like they are being pushed together.)
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I'm curious... which kiss?Stormbringer wrote:Except that whole Luke-Leia incest thing kind of balances of the Han-Leia angle. And I do believe that Leia's kiss for Luke is one of the most disturbing moments still on film.Kelly Antilles wrote: Better love story. (Anakin and Padme's relationship just seems so rushed. Like they are being pushed together.)
- Stormbringer
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The one one Hoth after Luke is finished in the bacta tank.Kelly Antilles wrote:I'm curious... which kiss?Stormbringer wrote: Except that whole Luke-Leia incest thing kind of balances of the Han-Leia angle. And I do believe that Leia's kiss for Luke is one of the most disturbing moments still on film.
- Slartibartfast
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I agree with you, specially with Return of the Jedi: many say it's kinda bad compared to the other two (or at least to the 2nd) but it has:Kelly Antilles wrote:The Original Trilogy was better all around.
Better lightsaber duels.
Better love story. (Anakin and Padme's relationship just seems so rushed. Like they are being pushed together.)
Better land AND air battles. (I mean, come on, TPM's air battle sucked.)
Someone needs to knock George upside the head and go "Hey, what the fuck happened? Did you forget how to write a story?"
- best lightsaber duel ever
- best space combat scene ever (extremely fast-paced), and while it's interlaced with the Ewok stuff, it covers about half the movie.
- the barge scene
- speeder bike chase (I like it a bit better than the speeder chase in AOTC, less convoluted)
- ground combat scene: I liked it better than AOTC too, even if it was full of Ewoks. AT-STs rule blasting trees and stuff
even if the plot wasn't all that original and stuff.
-Little or NO CGI! I mean really all that CGI stuff looks too fake I would have liked if they used the Yoda puppet in the prequels.
- Slartibartfast
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Well, while Luke had a crush on her, Leia showed little interest in the boy, actually... she was obviously in love with Han and only trying to make him jealous. That kiss was so non-romantic and stuff... I think "I'd rather kiss a wookie" fits about right.Stormbringer wrote:Except that whole Luke-Leia incest thing kind of balances of the Han-Leia angle. And I do believe that Leia's kiss for Luke is one of the most disturbing moments still on film.Kelly Antilles wrote: Better love story. (Anakin and Padme's relationship just seems so rushed. Like they are being pushed together.)
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I know that. But it still gives the willies.Kelly Antilles wrote:Oh come on, that was strictly to make Han jealous! I caught that the FIRST time I saw the movie. (before we knew Leia was Luke's sister... of course this was way back in 1980 and I was 12.5 years old.)Stormbringer wrote: The one one Hoth after Luke is finished in the bacta tank.
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I'm an ESB junkie. I still say that the AT-AT battle is the best land battle and the whole chase through the asteroid field was spectacular.Slartibartfast wrote: I agree with you, specially with Return of the Jedi: many say it's kinda bad compared to the other two (or at least to the 2nd) but it has:
- best lightsaber duel ever
- best space combat scene ever (extremely fast-paced), and while it's interlaced with the Ewok stuff, it covers about half the movie.
- the barge scene
- speeder bike chase (I like it a bit better than the speeder chase in AOTC, less convoluted)
- ground combat scene: I liked it better than AOTC too, even if it was full of Ewoks. AT-STs rule blasting trees and stuff
even if the plot wasn't all that original and stuff.
-Little or NO CGI! I mean really all that CGI stuff looks too fake I would have liked if they used the Yoda puppet in the prequels.
I could have done without all the Degobah scenes. But, I do love the Yoda puppet. It has much more expression than the CGI.
RotJ definately has the best lightsaber duel. While I loved the battle on Yavin, I've always found it a bit... long.
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- Stormbringer
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I think thats just George's hamfisted approach to interpersonal relationshpis showing through. He really ought to have brought someone in to help him. I'd nominate AC Crispin. I think she did that very well in her Han Solo trilogy.Kelly Antilles wrote:See, the Han/Leia relationship is classic. Anakin and Padme are... well, yeah, we all know they're supposed to get together, but damnit, don't make it so damn obvious! Put a little mystery into it!
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Unfortunately, George has a rather poor style when it comes to love stories. Even Leia/Han seemed really pushed. At least the Padme/Anakin relationship could be explained as two dumb kids who had wierd ideas that 'love should be difficult, alas forsooth!' and wouldn't know a real relationship if it bit them in the keisters.
A friend of mine commented that she was actually *relieved* to learn that Carrie Fischer had been coked out of her skull on the sets; she'd said that the body language Leia had was all wrong if she was in love with Han.
Me, I didn't pick up on that, but then again, I *know* I wouldn't be able to.
A friend of mine commented that she was actually *relieved* to learn that Carrie Fischer had been coked out of her skull on the sets; she'd said that the body language Leia had was all wrong if she was in love with Han.
Me, I didn't pick up on that, but then again, I *know* I wouldn't be able to.
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Coked out of her skull?! She was HIGH?! I never knew that!!!A friend of mine commented that she was actually *relieved* to learn that Carrie Fischer had been coked out of her skull on the sets; she'd said that the body language Leia had was all wrong if she was in love with Han.
Aw, c'mon! The Dagobah scenes are what sets it apart from all the other SW movies. They're great.I could have done without all the Degobah scenes. But, I do love the Yoda puppet. It has much more expression than the CGI.
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