A TIE rams a Federation ship...

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-02-18 05:49am

Somebody needs to take a game (like say Xwing Alliance) and program in CANON or as close to canon as possible (ie: ICS, Saxton calcs, this site, etc) stats for the SW ships and add in canon (again as best we can) Federation ships.

Then see who wins. ; )

Sure it won't be any good for massive campaigns (the Empire will always win due to sheer production infastructure and numbers) but at least for small scale ship battles it'd be cool.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-02-18 05:50am

Meaning to say, that forget game balance, but just go with stats and scales that are as accurate as possible.

So we'd have a mini-verses simulator. ; )

Impossible task?

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-02-18 10:15am

There are already many Star Trek and Star Wars mods for many space combat games like Armada, Bridgecommander and Starfleet command.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-02-18 10:18am

evilcat4000 wrote:There are already many Star Trek and Star Wars mods for many space combat games like Armada, Bridgecommander and Starfleet command.

Canon levels?

That I doubt about the others and can vouch Armada's isn't even close to canon given I played the Armada ones and STverse held up beyond a fraction of second to my ISD's firepower.

Kurgan is not asking for just a simple mod, but one that emulates the two series to a degree you cannot tell the difference.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2004-02-18 10:32am

HRogge wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:The A-wing rammed Executor's bridge window, just to clarify.
After the Executors bridge deflector was shot down.

People say "rammed" as if it were on purpose! The guy in the cockpit was clutching his and and screaming, but I'm nit-picking.
Anyway, seeing as TIEs have no shields then it'd depend entierly on it's hull platting, so, depending on the speed of the TIE and of the ship in question it may only do superficial damage, might cause a small hull breach and heavan forbid it crash near one of the Starfleet bom- er, I mean warpcores...

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-02-18 11:01am

Yeah, see that's what I'm talking about. I don't have Armada, but from what I've read about those mods it sounds more like they tried to just do a "themed" partial conversion.

They fudged the states in order to balance it for gameplay purposes, so it's not accurate.

Obviously using this method the game would be skewed in the direction of one over the other. If somebody like Mike Wong or Saxton did it, Wars would kick butt. If it were done by Graham Kennedy or Darkstar Trek would be superior.

Still, if it were based on "Objective methods" of observation and canon statistics (rather than hearsay or noncanon) it would be quite interesting.

Sort of a virtual Vs.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-02-18 11:09am

Er that should be "stats" not states.

Dang early morning typos. ; p

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-02-18 11:09am

Kurgan wrote:Obviously using this method the game would be skewed in the direction of one over the other. If somebody like Mike Wong or Saxton did it, Wars would kick butt. If it were done by Graham Kennedy or Darkstar Trek would be superior.

Still, if it were based on "Objective methods" of observation and canon statistics (rather than hearsay or noncanon) it would be quite interesting.

Sort of a virtual Vs.

Not really an ISD would sit there for days as the ENT-E pounds away relentlessly.

Canon shows that the Acclimantor has 200GT MTLs....nothing the Federation has is even a tenth of that, even if we used the non canon source of the Quantum Torpedos.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-02-18 11:12am

Dorsk 81 wrote:People say "rammed" as if it were on purpose! The guy in the cockpit was clutching his and and screaming, but I'm nit-picking.

It was on purpose. He was closing his eyes and screaming for at least five seconds, which should be more than anough time to pull up - but he was still heading straight for the bridge.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-02-18 11:13am

I don't know about the mods, but don't they have files with the ships' stats in them?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-02-18 11:13am

I think I see what you're trying to say. The simulation wouldn't allow for any "cop out" victories by Trek, ie: on-the-spot treknobabble.

Of course on the other hand for the simulation you could theoretically field a giant Trek fleet to attack the one Wars ship, just to get an idea of how it would stack up. Limited by whatever limitations of your computer of course.

If it was a 3-D sim like XWA you couldn't have thousands of ships, but if it were more like a text or tile based based thing or something you could have more...

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-02-18 11:16am

Kurgan wrote:I think I see what you're trying to say. The simulation wouldn't allow for any "cop out" victories by Trek, ie: on-the-spot treknobabble.

Of course on the other hand for the simulation you could theoretically field a giant Trek fleet to attack the one Wars ship, just to get an idea of how it would stack up. Limited by whatever limitations of your computer of course.

If it was a 3-D sim like XWA you couldn't have thousands of ships, but if it were more like a text or tile based based thing or something you could have more...

The thousands of Fed ships vs the one lone SW ship would be the best usage.

It would give also a decent look at how much honestly does it take....if done correctly.

It scaled correctly wouldn't have to hear "It's only take one Borg cube!!!"...instead pop in the program and viola...one Borg cube goes blip, then you amp the numbers...and you go "No, it takes about 4000."

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-02-18 12:22pm

would a tie fighter ramming at maximum speed be able to put out more force of impact or less than photon torpedoes? in various star trek episodes and the movies we're shown photorps going clean through the saucer section of ships and only leaving a rather big hole, but the ship itself can still function. how many megatons of explosive force would a tie be able to do?

Dooey Jo · Post by **Dooey Jo** » 2004-02-18 12:29pm

GySgt. Hartman wrote:
Dorsk 81 wrote:People say "rammed" as if it were on purpose! The guy in the cockpit was clutching his and and screaming, but I'm nit-picking.
It was on purpose. He was closing his eyes and screaming for at least five seconds, which should be more than anough time to pull up - but he was still heading straight for the bridge.

He's spinning quite rapidly, probably because he has lost control over the A-Wing.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-02-18 04:27pm

HRogge wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:Concussion missiles are not fusion bombs. I know that nuclear devices don't just go off by accident, but are concussion missiles nuclear?
We don't know how Conc. missiles work, so we have no idea if they would detonate. Everything requiring some kind of complex activator would not explode...

Actually, we do. They, like all big weapons, are nuclear weapons. Thermonuclear to be exact. So the missiles wouldn't explode.

Neither should the fuel. Its just matter to be ejected, there is no need to make it reactive and in fact a lot of excellent reason to make it inert. Hell, even JP5 jet fuel isn't explosive because it only starts to burn at 500 degrees and you aren't going to get it up that high from a crash or anything other then the engines.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-02-18 05:46pm

The thousands of Fed ships vs the one lone SW ship would be the best usage.

It would give also a decent look at how much honestly does it take....if done correctly.

It scaled correctly wouldn't have to hear "It's only take one Borg cube!!!"...instead pop in the program and viola...one Borg cube goes blip, then you amp the numbers...and you go "No, it takes about 4000."

Exactly right. I can't speak for the other games, but messing with XWA is tons of fun. The game lets you quickly and easily setup all kinds of skirmishes between multiple teams or squads of ships in space combat.

You of course can do completely ridiculous scenarios like a SSD vs. one A-wing, and with a theoretical "VS" mod/game you could likewise have a rounabout vs. the Eclipse II or something of that sort. That's the beauty of it, you could have ship vs. ship or fleet vs. fleet, or fleet vs. ship, or anything in between.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-18 09:18pm

Kurgan wrote:
The thousands of Fed ships vs the one lone SW ship would be the best usage.

It would give also a decent look at how much honestly does it take....if done correctly.

It scaled correctly wouldn't have to hear "It's only take one Borg cube!!!"...instead pop in the program and viola...one Borg cube goes blip, then you amp the numbers...and you go "No, it takes about 4000."
Exactly right. I can't speak for the other games, but messing with XWA is tons of fun. The game lets you quickly and easily setup all kinds of skirmishes between multiple teams or squads of ships in space combat.

You of course can do completely ridiculous scenarios like a SSD vs. one A-wing, and with a theoretical "VS" mod/game you could likewise have a rounabout vs. the Eclipse II or something of that sort. That's the beauty of it, you could have ship vs. ship or fleet vs. fleet, or fleet vs. ship, or anything in between.

Too bad they're discontinuing X-wing. I loved being able to set up fleet engagements like that. Of course, the game weighted in favor of the green side. If you put identical forces on each team the red one lost by a substantial margin, no matter which side you're on, unless its 1v1 or 2v2 or some other small number. In a large fighter engagement if you're red the red AIs will get their asses handed to them, leaving you facing vast amounts of enemy fighters. If you wanted to make it truly fair you'd have to fix that.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-02-19 12:11am

Ghost Rider wrote:
evilcat4000 wrote:There are already many Star Trek and Star Wars mods for many space combat games like Armada, Bridgecommander and Starfleet command.
Canon levels?

That I doubt about the others and can vouch Armada's isn't even close to canon given I played the Armada ones and STverse held up beyond a fraction of second to my ISD's firepower.

Kurgan is not asking for just a simple mod, but one that emulates the two series to a degree you cannot tell the difference.

Of course the mods are not canon. To really simulate combat between SW and ST forces a new game is required.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-02-19 12:18am

evilcat4000 wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:
evilcat4000 wrote:There are already many Star Trek and Star Wars mods for many space combat games like Armada, Bridgecommander and Starfleet command.
Canon levels?

That I doubt about the others and can vouch Armada's isn't even close to canon given I played the Armada ones and STverse held up beyond a fraction of second to my ISD's firepower.

Kurgan is not asking for just a simple mod, but one that emulates the two series to a degree you cannot tell the difference.
Of course the mods are not canon. To really simulate combat between SW and ST forces a new game is required.

No kidding...and given he was asking for a canon level mod...your reference to that there are mods out there, did not answer his question about the subject.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2004-02-19 05:40am

Ender wrote:Actually, we do. They, like all big weapons, are nuclear weapons. Thermonuclear to be exact. So the missiles wouldn't explode.

Neither should the fuel. Its just matter to be ejected, there is no need to make it reactive and in fact a lot of excellent reason to make it inert. Hell, even JP5 jet fuel isn't explosive because it only starts to burn at 500 degrees and you aren't going to get it up that high from a crash or anything other then the engines.

Proton torpedos are no nuclear weapons, so I don't see any reason why concussion missiles should be nuclear ones. They could be some kind of "unknown" advanced warhead, but most likely they will require a complicated detonation mechanisms, so they will not explode.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-02-19 06:28am

The notable exception would be antimatter, of course.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2004-02-19 07:52am

Howedar wrote:The notable exception would be antimatter, of course.

Yes.

Lancer · Post by **Lancer** » 2004-02-19 04:14pm

Gandalf wrote:
GySgt. Hartman wrote:It would burst against the shields, doing no real damage.
Are you sure, we often see Jem' Hadar ramming ships that have taken no damage. No shields stop them.

We've seen from Nemesis that Fed shields stop physical impacts, as was evidenced by the fragments of a Valdore colliding with the E-E's port nacelle and doing nothing to the E-E. In addition, an impact with a shielded surface, be it with energy weapons or physical objects, has the shield bubble effect, where a portion of the shield becomes visible. The shield-bubble effect wasn't observed with the Jem'Hadar collisions, which leads us to believe that shields were not active, and that power was diverted to other systems that would do more good against Dominion vessels. (keep in mind that most ST shields were largely useless against polaron beams until later in the Dom war).

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2004-02-19 09:34pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Gandalf wrote:
GySgt. Hartman wrote:It would burst against the shields, doing no real damage.
Are you sure, we often see Jem' Hadar ramming ships that have taken no damage. No shields stop them.
They are also a bit larger than a TIE

Didn't they also have some kind of weird technobabbly shield bypasser? Or are there incidents of post-anti-technobabbly-shield-bypasser-shields ramming?

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-02-19 09:42pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Gandalf wrote: Are you sure, we often see Jem' Hadar ramming ships that have taken no damage. No shields stop them.
They are also a bit larger than a TIE
Didn't they also have some kind of weird technobabbly shield bypasser? Or are there incidents of post-anti-technobabbly-shield-bypasser-shields ramming?

Their weapons were a phased polaron generator. Nothing else so indicated, even when they learned how to defend against them (See: Call To Arms) they ship ramming still worked.