Mel Gibson's Dad, #1 Jew Fan

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2004-02-21 01:55am

Darth Wong wrote: You cannot honestly say, based on the information at hand, that Pilate was a maniac. You can only say that some of his political enemies in the Herodian dynasty accused him of being one. Not quite as striking a condemnation, is it?

The Herods had recently lost their power in Palestine due to appointment of a Roman Governor--Herod the Great had ruled the region as a Client-King of Rome with much more power and authority, but after he was deposed, the Kingdom was divided up among his sons and the central administration of the various parts ended up Roman--and there's no doubt that there was hostility over that.

lgot · Post by **lgot** » 2004-02-21 02:07am

Actually, Igot used the term "maniac" first. But you're right. I concede. Can't prove it.

indeed but what i said was : "You said yourself, Pilatos was a maniac but in the gospels he is almost fair, calm and sympathic to Jesus. Such portrait just helped to clean up the act of Romans and let the hebrews take on the charge. "

A reference of what you said about Pilatos ( you did not used the word, but that is small detail. ) , i was not backing up, just pointing that the attitude of Pilatos in the gospels does not fix well with his overall image outside the gospel, the image you used to defend the gospel's tendencies to not bash romans.
Either if Pilatos was or not, I believe it does not explain better than history of separation of sects the anit-semethic nature in some texts of the gospels that does exist (you also claimed that was a lack of understanting, which is not)

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-21 02:10am

you also claimed that was a lack of understanting, which is not

I claimed that it is a mistranslation, which it is. My source for this is a monk who reads the original Attic Greek, so its nothing I can link you to, but I trust him.

lgot · Post by **lgot** » 2004-02-21 02:18am

in the other topic : "Actually, the Biblical account is seriously misinterpreted on the Jewish issue by many people" , but that is a nitpick...
the piece you said that is mistranslation of mathew does not Jonh's interpreation and of course, the most natural construction of blamming the leaders, blamming all the people. (as for it is pretty clear that some sheppard somewhere in jerusalem had nothing to do with jesus death) and also the fact they blame the people because this people choose to stick with the leaders. More reasons for the bitter separation rather than anything.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-02-21 11:57am

"In the year 2004, the Jews will kill Christ" WTF ???
That was one of the main reasons why Christians were supposed to hate Jews. ("They killed our Lord")

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-21 12:14pm

GySgt. Hartman wrote:"In the year 2004, the Jews will kill Christ" WTF ???
That was one of the main reasons why Christians were supposed to hate Jews. ("They killed our Lord")

That is not the real movie trailer. Some fool thought it'd be funny and made that up.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2004-02-21 01:29pm

Rogue 9 wrote:That is not the real movie trailer. Some fool thought it'd be funny and made that up.

More like some dude who doesn't get worked up over the movie. You sem to be a might angry at the guy who made the fake trailer.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-02-21 01:30pm

Oh, ok. You have to spell stuff like that out for me. In block letters. Sometimes I'm on an intellectual par with a peeled onion.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-21 01:57pm

kojikun wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:That is not the real movie trailer. Some fool thought it'd be funny and made that up.
More like some dude who doesn't get worked up over the movie. You sem to be a might angry at the guy who made the fake trailer.

I don't care that he doesn't take it seriously. I care about the connotations of what he did with it. That's anti-Semitism right there.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-02-21 02:00pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
kojikun wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:That is not the real movie trailer. Some fool thought it'd be funny and made that up.
More like some dude who doesn't get worked up over the movie. You sem to be a might angry at the guy who made the fake trailer.
I don't care that he doesn't take it seriously. I care about the connotations of what he did with it. That's anti-Semitism right there.

Dude, it was satire.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-02-21 03:55pm

One wonders if Pilate had found out about Jesus' teachings about non-violence, submission to civil authority (especially paying your taxes), and turning the other cheek, if he may have protected and sheltered Jesus.

And thus ended Christianity.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-02-21 03:57pm

Rogue 9 wrote:That's anti-Semitism right there.

The idea was to poke fun at Gibson's politics and the accusation of anti-Semitism on the the movie.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-21 05:36pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:One wonders if Pilate had found out about Jesus' teachings about non-violence, submission to civil authority (especially paying your taxes), and turning the other cheek, if he may have protected and sheltered Jesus.

And thus ended Christianity.

I doubt it. The Pharisees said that Jesus told them not to pay taxes to Caesar (lying, of course), and he had an angry mob on his hands. It was one man or a revolt right then and there by every account we have.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-02-21 06:44pm

Of course, if Pilate had sheltered Jesus and there had been a revolt, what would have happened? Obviously it would have been violently suppressed - Rome will tolerate no rebellion - but, then, would the historical revolt have occurred forty years later? Or would Judea now be thoroughly squelched beneath the Roman boot?

Cornelius · Post by **Cornelius** » 2004-02-21 07:15pm

[quote] The first half-hour of "We were Soldiers" is virtually a Catholic recruiting movie, and we all know how fucked-up "Signs" was. [/quote}

It was? How?

Oddysseus · Post by **Oddysseus** » 2004-02-21 07:30pm

Well, Pilate was stuck in Jeruslaem in the middle of a holiday. The city was bustling, full of excited and busy Jews. And then this guy appears and starts getting people riled up. Starts going around giving speechs, theirs talk of a messiah (which would in effect mean he is above Rome and the Emperor - and could unify and lead the Jews in a revolt). This guy is causing unrest, getting the lowest of society talking and massing, getting the temple leaders and leading families pissed. It was a bad situation. What else can he do? Sit back an wait? Have a talk? Ask Rome for advice? No, he acts to restore his order.

At least this is how I read events, based on what I have heard over time. He was a man of his time (the good and ill in that as it is), a govern responsible as a defender of his empire and responsible for maintining order. Jesus was a threat, either overtly or covertly.

Watching some show last week, another part of the story has me wondering. You govern the region, hold it down with threats and legions. Why would you call together the masses and get them riled up and debating about this Jesus guy. It just would make him some...martyr. Better to haul him in, try him, and then crucify him. It wasn't in Pilate's interest to make it a bigger deal.

All just my opinion. Thoughts?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-02-21 07:41pm

Cornelius wrote:
The first half-hour of "We were Soldiers" is virtually a Catholic recruiting movie, and we all know how fucked-up "Signs" was. [/quote}

It was? How?

Signs? We've had several threads devoted to how screwed up Signs was, but I'll go ahead and lay down the basics.

Aliens have mastered space travel, have demonstrated impressive physical prowess jumping at least 10 feet in the air onto rooftops, cannot break down wooden doors
Aliens carry no long range weapons of any kind or even effective short range weapons, instead relying on poison gas they have to be at point blank range to use and is only effective when inhaled
Aliens have decided to invade a planet whose atmosphere is full of a substance extremely toxic to them, with most of the surface of that same planet being covered with the same substance, supposedly to "harvest" a species, once again, filled with this very same highly toxic substance
Stupid, pointless theological subplot
No firearms - asking us to believe a farmer in rural PA wouldn't have a firearm of some sort, especially when in the situation he's in, is quite a stretch to say the least

Cornelius · Post by **Cornelius** » 2004-02-21 07:43pm

Oops sorry, I didnt mean to quote the signs thing, just the "we were soldiers." my fault.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-02-21 09:45pm

Cornelius wrote:Oops sorry, I didnt mean to quote the signs thing, just the "we were soldiers." my fault.

I've only seen "We Were Soldiers" twice, and the second time I started in the middle of the battle. Though I can't quote impressive references, I do remember Mel Gibson talking to that Lieutenant kid in a church. That's by no means conclusive, but I did dislike it - I wanted a war film, goddamit! Blood, guts and glory. Not a bloody... church sermon from Mel.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2004-02-21 10:36pm

Oddysseus wrote:
Watching some show last week, another part of the story has me wondering. You govern the region, hold it down with threats and legions. Why would you call together the masses and get them riled up and debating about this Jesus guy. It just would make him some...martyr. Better to haul him in, try him, and then crucify him. It wasn't in Pilate's interest to make it a bigger deal.

All just my opinion. Thoughts?

Remember, the majority of the Jews were upset over the existence of this lunatic, not riled up by what he was saying. In pacifying the mob he tried to give them what they wanted, and to the conservative Jews that was in fact the death of someone who was preaching heresy. Pilate went along with it because one life to avoid a major riot in an urban center was an easy equation at the time.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-02-21 10:40pm

Stofsk wrote:
Cornelius wrote:Oops sorry, I didnt mean to quote the signs thing, just the "we were soldiers." my fault.
I've only seen "We Were Soldiers" twice, and the second time I started in the middle of the battle. Though I can't quote impressive references, I do remember Mel Gibson talking to that Lieutenant kid in a church. That's by no means conclusive, but I did dislike it - I wanted a war film, goddamit! Blood, guts and glory. Not a bloody... church sermon from Mel.

The church scene was pretty blatant, but what about the "let's all pray together" scene at Mel's home, with his kids?

Post by **fgalkin** » 2004-02-22 02:17am

Joe wrote:Daaaamn....

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Uther · Post by **Uther** » 2004-02-22 02:57am

I believe that in the Diane Sawyer interview, Gibson explicitly says he believes 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-02-22 03:01am

Uther wrote:I believe that in the Diane Sawyer interview, Gibson explicitly says he believes 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust.

But he also refuses to denounce his father's statements, which means he does not find them morally abhorrent enough to "drive a wedge" between him and his father, as he put it.

It is possible for someone to hate Jews without necessarily denying the Holocaust, although I'd still like to see this clip. But the fact that he belongs to a Catholic sect which still believes in collective Jewish racial guilt for Jesus' death means that he is an anti-Semite. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Inherited racial guilt is racist by its very nature.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2004-02-22 03:20am

Darth Wong wrote:
It is possible for someone to hate Jews without necessarily denying the Holocaust, although I'd still like to see this clip.

For example on this matter, I have heard several anti-semites who have, instead of denying the holocaust, simply applauded it.

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Mel Gibson's Dad, #1 Jew Fan

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