Should there be classes on how to date?

TheDarkOne · Post by **TheDarkOne** » 2004-02-22 05:42pm

I don't like this idea. Certianly there are some skills and ideas which are common to all relationships, but I think the trouble with this idea would be identify those skill and ideas, so they can be taught.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2004-02-22 05:45pm

Darth Wong wrote:I would still be armed with far more useful knowledge than a 16 year old kid.

Mike, have you learned nothing? A sixteen-year-old knows much more about "relationships and stuff" than old codgers like you or I could ever hope to know; just ask any teenager, and they'll tell you...

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2004-02-22 07:04pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Don't we sort of already do that in PSE classes?
No.

Fair enough. Can't say I paid attention in PSE. Was always busy thinking abut more important things, like maths.
Or my plans for the weekend.
Pretty much the same in RS, or any other subject that wasn't directly contrbuting to my academic prowess, much like most of the other kids at the school. "Social" lessons are not taken seriously, and very few kids actually come away from them with anything useful. I don't see your dating class being any different.

At the risk of condescension, after 12 years of marriage I know more about maintaining long-term relationships than you do.
Wrong. You know more about maintaining a long term relationship with Rebecca than I do. You'd be stumped if you woke up tomorrow and found yourself married to someone else.
I would still be armed with far more useful knowledge than a 16 year old kid.

You were comparing yourself to me. I'm not a 16 year old kid, remember? I've had a college-level education, and a long-term (OK, 3 years) relationship. And I have access to people who have had even longer than 12 year marriages. The difference between you and me, is that you've got first hand experience in a 12 year marriage, that hasn't ended in tears and heartbreak.

Basically what you're saying, though, is that experience is more important than theory, which is exactly my point.
No, your (mistaken) point is to draw a false dilemma between the two, as if we must choose between one or the other rather than accepting that both are a good idea.

Clearly that's not what I meant, because you can't take away the first hand experience. I just think that first hand experience coupled with second hand knowledge that one has actively persued, and cares about is the best you can hope for, and having a teacher lecture at you for an hour a week just will not sink in, or will not be useful in comparison.

But you would be taking away school hours from other aspects. Do you not also bemoan the slipping standards of the academic prowess of high school graduates? (not sure whether you have or not. Forgive me for putting words in your mouth) And yet you would take away 3-R time for these relationship classes?

I'm sceptical because I've read Just Seventeen and More! and Sugar and all those magazines, and while their advice on how to put a tampon in and what to do for period pains and how to apply mascara (no, these aren't inbron abilities), their advice on boys frankly sucked. they painted you all like clone-stamped robots who all responded in the same way to hair tossing and video games and football, and nothing they said actually worked in real life because all people are different, and you have to approach a relationship and dating by havign absolutely no clue what you're doing.
I see a class on the subject being the same. For those that pay attention, they'll come out of it with some sort of set of 'rules' to play by to get others to respond in such and such a way.
Rules and game playing just don't work in interpersonal relationships.

Bug-Eyed Earl · Post by **Bug-Eyed Earl** » 2004-02-22 07:27pm

It would work better than my step-mother's "Get a date in two weeks or give me money" prgram.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-22 07:39pm

Bug-Eyed Earl wrote:It would work better than my step-mother's "Get a date in two weeks or give me money" prgram.

Why would she do a damn fool thing like that? And how much money we talking? If its less than $20 you're likely actually saving money by paying her.

Bug-Eyed Earl · Post by **Bug-Eyed Earl** » 2004-02-22 07:50pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
Bug-Eyed Earl wrote:It would work better than my step-mother's "Get a date in two weeks or give me money" prgram.
Why would she do a damn fool thing like that? And how much money we talking? If its less than $20 you're likely actually saving money by paying her.

It goes like this; I was a junior in high school; her and my fatehr had friends over, and they started to leave to go out to eat. She said they were leaving for awhile, and I misheard what she said and thought she was asking me if I wanted to come, so I said yes. Later that evening she said she was sick of me always wanting to hand around adults and not kids my age, so she said to set aside 20 bucks and ask a girl out every day for two weeks. If none of them said yes, I would have to give her the money. 2 weeks passed, no one sid yes, and she took pity on me and let me keep the $20.

Nothing like forcing a kid to confirm the negative belief that no girl would go out with him at the time.

AnimeJet · Post by **AnimeJet** » 2004-02-22 08:56pm

Eh.. sounds kinda silly, every date would be boring cause it would be pretty much the same.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-02-22 09:25pm

InnerBrat wrote:Pretty much the same in RS, or any other subject that wasn't directly contrbuting to my academic prowess, much like most of the other kids at the school. "Social" lessons are not taken seriously, and very few kids actually come away from them with anything useful. I don't see your dating class being any different.

Well, that's a question of competence rather than principle.

You were comparing yourself to me. I'm not a 16 year old kid, remember? I've had a college-level education, and a long-term (OK, 3 years) relationship. And I have access to people who have had even longer than 12 year marriages. The difference between you and me, is that you've got first hand experience in a 12 year marriage, that hasn't ended in tears and heartbreak.

Isn't that the whole point, though? When a long-term relationship ends badly, something went terribly wrong. Maybe it was wrong from the outset, and maybe it went sour somewhere along the way. But how can you be so sure that more knowledge about relationship issues would have been useless?

Clearly that's not what I meant, because you can't take away the first hand experience. I just think that first hand experience coupled with second hand knowledge that one has actively persued, and cares about is the best you can hope for, and having a teacher lecture at you for an hour a week just will not sink in, or will not be useful in comparison.

By that token, most education is useless. Very few people learn something unless they take an active interest in it. At best, they learn only enough to barely pass the exam.

But you would be taking away school hours from other aspects. Do you not also bemoan the slipping standards of the academic prowess of high school graduates? (not sure whether you have or not. Forgive me for putting words in your mouth) And yet you would take away 3-R time for these relationship classes?

Considering the fact that most high schools already have room for multiple useless electives such as "home economics", I'd say there's no need to neuter math or writing skills in order to implement this course.

I'm sceptical because I've read Just Seventeen and More! and Sugar and all those magazines, and while their advice on how to put a tampon in and what to do for period pains and how to apply mascara (no, these aren't inbron abilities), their advice on boys frankly sucked.

You don't seriously think that such a course should mirror the contents of those worthless magazines, do you?

they painted you all like clone-stamped robots who all responded in the same way to hair tossing and video games and football, and nothing they said actually worked in real life because all people are different, and you have to approach a relationship and dating by havign absolutely no clue what you're doing.

All people are different, but not completely different. There are some things which are common pitfalls in relationships. For example, very few people know how to argue over a disagreement in a marriage without generating lasting resentment. Even fewer know how to address the "sex life after having kids" issue, which torpedoes far more marriages than anyone is willing to admit (thanks to the societal taboo on discussing anything related to sex or even admitting that sex is a healthy and necessary part of a relationship).

Post by **haas mark** » 2004-02-22 09:30pm

Darth Wong wrote:
But you would be taking away school hours from other aspects. Do you not also bemoan the slipping standards of the academic prowess of high school graduates? (not sure whether you have or not. Forgive me for putting words in your mouth) And yet you would take away 3-R time for these relationship classes?
Considering the fact that most high schools already have room for multiple useless electives such as "home economics", I'd say there's no need to neuter math or writing skills in order to implement this course.

Just to point out, schools are beginning to require "Fine Arts" classes (music or art) and more languages (some two years' worth, some three), thus not leaving any "free time" for electives until the junior, and sometimes senior, as in my experience. This is, of course, dependent on regions and who is doing what, but it's just something I thought I might point out.

However, a lot of schools require health classes the freshman year, so if it could be effectively integrated (which is a joke, IMO), then this could be feasible.. but I still submit that high school kids are ignorant idiots..

jegs2 put it quite succinctly:

Mike, have you learned nothing? A sixteen-year-old knows much more about "relationships and stuff" than old codgers like you or I could ever hope to know; just ask any teenager, and they'll tell you...

~ver

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-22 09:42pm

I daresay I was never under that impression when I was in high school.

As for fine arts, its a good idea, rather than turning out uncultured heathens.

justifier · Post by **justifier** » 2004-02-22 10:14pm

Rather then a "relationships" class what about a "social interactions" class, teaching people how to talk to new people, how to act in certain social situations(ie-fancy restraunts), how to dress(god people need it.) and talk, it could have relationship related issues such as how to argue. It could be intigrated and include things from current health classes, such as sex, how to use protection(which health classes should have dammit), STDs(though being so sickeningly thourgh about every STD known to man isn't nessesary, a general overview will do just fine) and a short overview on drugs.

Cornelius · Post by **Cornelius** » 2004-02-22 11:38pm

In my opinion, I think all social skills shoudl be learned outside of school. It isnt a country club, It should be very sterile and formal with little or no student involvement. People should have their own corners where they masticate in peace and do their work after consuming energy.

Macross · Post by **Macross** » 2004-02-23 01:20am

Hell YES!
Then maybe someone like me would actually be able to get a date!

Post by **haas mark** » 2004-02-23 01:28am

Macross wrote:Hell YES!
Then maybe someone like me would actually be able to get a date!

No, the classes are for during the date, you dolt. You'd still be SOL if you can't get the date in the first place.. ;P

~ver

Post by **Broomstick** » 2004-02-23 01:49am

verilon wrote:
Broomstick wrote: <snip>
And most of the time, it's immature idiots that act like that.

We ALL start out as "immature idiots" - no one is born mature and wise.

verilon wrote:
Broomstick wrote:bitch bitch bitch moan moan moan
Deal with it?

It would be easier to have a conversation with you if you were more specific about what you are disagreeing with. Since nowhere did I say "bitch bitch bitch moan moan moan" I have little if any idea what YOUR bitch is.

Post by **haas mark** » 2004-02-23 02:01am

Broomstick wrote:
verilon wrote:
Broomstick wrote: <snip>
And most of the time, it's immature idiots that act like that.
We ALL start out as "immature idiots" - no one is born mature and wise.

Granted.. but you're acting as if everyone does this all the time.. But in truth, it's only the immature idiots out there that do it, and it's not as prominent as you might think.

verilon wrote:
Broomstick wrote:bitch bitch bitch moan moan moan
Deal with it?
It would be easier to have a conversation with you if you were more specific about what you are disagreeing with. Since nowhere did I say "bitch bitch bitch moan moan moan" I have little if any idea what YOUR bitch is.

You're bitching about women whining. Sometimes ya just gotta learn to deal with it. That, as well, is a part of relationship-building. As I am sure Mike can tell you, after a while, there are other little pet peeves your partner has that will annoy you.

I understand that you're not trying to reduce it to just whining, but it's irritating to see that anyone might think that things necessarily go this way or that.

~ver

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2004-02-23 03:06am

Absolutely yes! In fact, this class (We'll call it "Applied Sociology" just because it sounds like a good title) ought to be taught to seventh and eighth graders, and certainly no later than ninth grade. One could offer it as a block with the health class most students have to take around this time. Learn about the physical stuff one semester, and then learn about the stuff that arises because of the physical stuff in the next semester.

By sixth and seventh grade, kids are already starting to learn about gender roles among people with hormones and functional equipment. And given that the typical teenager tends to be something of a self-absorbed, hormone-charged moron, they can very quickly develop a lot of very bad habits when it comes to dating and relationships.

Observe, for example, the dependent young boys and girls with no real self-esteem, who end up turning to online interaction and end up become easy fucking pickings (pun intended) for internet sex predators. Or how many people chase after relationships with people who are completely wrong for them in terms of actual personal compatibility, but they go after these relationships because they don't know how not to listen to their genitalia.

Yes, absolutely yes such a class should be taught. And it has to be taught by actual qualified people, rather than the complete jackasses they'd probably find to teach a course like this.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2004-02-23 05:26am

Formal Etiquette in schools used to be a huge part of the education for the elite; you needed it to get along in the world. When to bow, when to say thank you, when to curtsey if female, when to hold a door open, what sort of clothes to wear to what sorts of functions, what kind of gloves to wear in what sorts of weather.. How far you bow to what different ranks of gentlemen, etc. Dancing lessons. Courtship etiquette was tacitly included in this because it was understood that courtship was, of course, a civilized and proper undertaken and that it had to be done some time; so the proper civilized individual of the upper class had best know how to engage in it, discretely.

I am imagining this classes as a very heavily watered down, plebian/middle class version of that. Which, you know what? That sounds like an incredibly good idea. Society can actually be very confusing at times, and dating the worst of it (somewhat easier for me, maybe, or harder? I'm not sure; I don't have much to compare relative experiences in). It wouldn't be anything like the example above because we're not a bunch of European nobility; but it would obviously be the same basic concept; just adapted to modern western middle-class life (which would also make it vastly easier; if the subject itself is one that isn't exactly easy because it's so subjective).

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-02-23 06:00am

Perhaps.

Of course, my social skills were fucked up before I even entered high school, so I have no idea how much it would have helped me.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-02-23 06:38am

and you have to approach a relationship and dating by havign absolutely no clue what you're doing.

Yeah, that's pretty fucking easy once you're in the relationship, but what about the poor bastards who can't get their foot in the door because they're scared shitless of the opposite sex? They are out there, and this talk of "they just need to go out and do it" doesn't help them at all because there are certain expectations made of you in high school courtship, and a faux pas at the wrong moment can make it all the harder for the socially inept because of the wonderful invention of gossip.

I would bet money that there are thousands of teenagers who are petrified and unwilling to make a move because they have absolutely no idea how to go about it; worse, there are still more teenagers who have no clue how to take such an offer. Maybe if there was a class in which their fears could be somewhat dispelled and they could be given a straight answer as to what a good way to approach/respond is, they might have a little more confidence in themselves and be able to respond appropriately.

Yes, there should be some first hand experience, but some people need a little guidance to help them get that experience, and a teenager asking other teenagers for advice is absolutely worthless, because they get a half-dozen different answers and a boatload of misconceived bullshit along with it.

I'm a college freshman who's yet to have a girlfriend, and I'm telling you that I really could have used this sort of thing when I was in high school.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2004-02-23 10:04am

verilon wrote:Granted.. but you're acting as if everyone does this all the time.. But in truth, it's only the immature idiots out there that do it, and it's not as prominent as you might think.

Disagree. And I won't even blame it on my current neighborhood. I've lived in 5 different states and everywhere I go there are plenty of social fuckups. I try not to associate with them more than I have to, but they are out there.

verilon wrote:You're bitching about women whining. Sometimes ya just gotta learn to deal with it. That, as well, is a part of relationship-building. As I am sure Mike can tell you, after a while, there are other little pet peeves your partner has that will annoy you.

Oh, please, I've a 15 year marriage myself - I could give you a shitload of peeves in regards to my Other Half, and probably list off the OH's list of peeves about me, too. But sticking your fingers in your ears is NOT "dealing with it". Whining is a symptom, you want to stop it for good, you have to deal with the cause.

I understand that you're not trying to reduce it to just whining, but it's irritating to see that anyone might think that things necessarily go this way or that.

It was just one example, yes - and I even stated that no rule is 100% when dealing with people. People are not entirely random in behavior, certain patterns tend to recur. As I've gotten older and my understanding of some of these patterns has improved, my ability to get along with people has also improved. Not all of this can be taught - experience does count and you only get it one way - but that's no excuse for throwing up your hands and saying NONE of it should be taught.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-02-23 11:54am

Uraniun235 wrote: I would bet money that there are thousands of teenagers who are petrified and unwilling to make a move because they have absolutely no idea how to go about it; worse, there are still more teenagers who have no clue how to take such an offer. Maybe if there was a class in which their fears could be somewhat dispelled and they could be given a straight answer as to what a good way to approach/respond is, they might have a little more confidence in themselves and be able to respond appropriately.

used to be one of those statistics myself, actually. until after high school i had no real conceivable idea of how to really talk to girls. thankfully, -after- i got out, i learned what my problems in dealing with it was, fixed them up, and now thankfully am able to converse with the opposite sex with relative ease. i still have the occasional hiccup when it comes to doing anything relationship wise, but it's not nearly as bad as i used to be.

that said, while i think a class concerning how to date might help in some ways, i think it may be really more of a self-esteem issue rather than a lack of knowledge issue for alot of the cases. sure, knowing what you're supposed to do may help, but it won't necessarily help overcome the whole fear aspect of asking out a girl or dealing with rejection, etc.

Mayabird · Post by **Mayabird** » 2004-02-23 03:21pm

Come to think of it, this Social Interactions/Communications/whatnot class would probably be most effective around sixth or seventh grade (let's say sixth, because I owe my seventh grade fundie "life science" teacher a box of used condoms on her front yard...that'll learn her). You have to get the "giggle factor" out of them fast before they start getting wrong information from their slightly older but even more clueless friends.

It would also be good to have a few decent school conselors with lots of information who was always willing to hear student's problems and give advice as an outside party, but in my experience that's about as likely as a well taught relationships class or a biology class in rural Georgia that goes into depth about evolution. The counselor's daughters at school always had the freshest, juiciest gossip that they got from their mom.

Macross · Post by **Macross** » 2004-02-23 05:41pm

verilon wrote:No, the classes are for during the date, you dolt. You'd still be SOL if you can't get the date in the first place.. ;P

~ver

D'OH!

Wait, wouldnt such a class would have homework assignments??? Like practice dates with other students???

hehe

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2004-02-23 07:19pm

Would the classes be separated? I doubt that the classes would be to successful, probably would be seen as for geeks with no lifes.