World War II, What If We Did Not Win?

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2004-02-23 03:31am

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:I hope you all realize that by if Germany waited for Russia to invade the the Germans might be on the recieving end of Lend/Lease instead of the Russians. Think about it, it would give them the victim card... "See we were right about the threat of Boleshivism all along!"

Not only that but only after years of learning hard and costly lessons at the hands of the Germans and their superior battle strategies and combat doctrine did the soviet military even become a worthy fighting force at all. Plus they wouldnt be able to rally all the support from their people like they did when Germany attacked them.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-02-23 11:51am

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:I hope you all realize that by if Germany waited for Russia to invade the the Germans might be on the recieving end of Lend/Lease instead of the Russians. Think about it, it would give them the victim card... "See we were right about the threat of Boleshivism all along!"

Highly unlikely, since Germany still attacked France.

Roosevelt would have none of this bullshit of giving Germany help.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-02-23 12:55pm

Roosevelt was one of the only men in the west who understood what Hitler was all about. There's no way he tries to help the Nazis even if the Soviets invade unprovoked, and even if he wanted to, he could barely slam Lend Lease through Congress to help Britian, a democracy and our own mother country. Which isolationist congressmen are going to vote against their principles for the Nazis?

Besides, FDR was a closet red, or at least a pinko. He probably roots for the Soviets. Hell, if you don't know about the gulags and the famines, the Soviets come off as the good guys in that war even if they attack first.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-02-23 01:04pm

Even when you do include the gulags and famines, the Soviets are the good guys.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-02-23 02:14pm

Icehawk wrote:Not only that but only after years of learning hard and costly lessons at the hands of the Germans and their superior battle strategies and combat doctrine did the soviet military even become a worthy fighting force at all. Plus they wouldnt be able to rally all the support from their people like they did when Germany attacked them.

It doesn't matter if they have the experience fighting the Nazis or not, the Germans are too outnumbered to resist any Soviet invasion of the Fatherland.

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2004-02-23 03:36pm

Howedar wrote:Even when you do include the gulags and famines, the Soviets are the good guys.

Elaborate on that please.

It doesn't matter if they have the experience fighting the Nazis or not, the Germans are too outnumbered to resist any Soviet invasion of the Fatherland.

Given the completely different and debilitating circumstances that the reds are fighting under, I would say it could actually come out to a stalemate regardless of their numerical superiority.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-02-23 03:57pm

Icehawk wrote: You do realise that if the surviving british air bases are pulled out of range of the Germans than Britains own planes are effectively out of range of Germany and cannot mount any sort of counter attacks.

The British need only pull out of range of German fighters, and German fighters can only reach a tiny part of East Anglia, which is where British bombs hitting Germany flew out of. Historically the few German attempts to attack bases in that area ended up with the bombers being cut to pieces.

They may be able to defend, but without any way of attacking Germany back, Germany's skies are effectively free and its plants are free to crank out long range heavy bombers and longer range fighters if the need be. Britain will be cornered and constantly under siege and Germay will just keep getting stronger.

Nope. During this period Bomber Command was flying almost all of its missions against Luftwaffe bases in France and the channel ports, at most a hundred bombers could be over Germany on any one night and they'd be dispersed over a dozen or more targets. The material damage was effectively nil, and on some raids British bomber crews suffered more casualties then German civilians. It doesn't matter if they can't bomb Germany for a while, though they will be fully able to, as I've already pointed out. As for Germany magically getting stronger, it won't. In fact the Luftwaffe was rapidly shrinking as well throughout the Battle of Britain. What's more, The British actually out produced Germany in terms of aircraft from mid 1939 all the way to the start 1943; in 1941 it was by a factor of nearly two to one. By mid 1941 the British had over 100 squadrons of fighters deployed for home defence. In terms of pilot and crew training the Germans had a considerable advantage, yet they still where unable to replenish there losses while sustaining large scale attacks on Britain, and British training programs where radically expanded.

Then around the second half of 1941 as the German bomber fleets are reduced to flotillas the British begin to hit back effectively, by then they'd gone up to about 300 bombers available on any one night, and German city centers start going up in flames and then things start moving quickly as the bombers start coming by the thousand and not only a few hundred. And meanwhile the huge diversion of resources to bombing Britain has left the German military with the Russian bear growing strong and likely a disturbing British buildup in Greece... not too far from Ploesti.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-02-23 04:21pm

phongn wrote:However, in another scenario, I've recently read an excellent alternate history where Lord Halifax's coup in 1940 succeeds, promptly taking Great Britain out of the war in 1940. Things...greatly diverge after that.

SAC does not turn back.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-02-23 05:37pm

Icehawk wrote:
Howedar wrote:Even when you do include the gulags and famines, the Soviets are the good guys.
Elaborate on that please.

You're joking, right?

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-02-23 05:56pm

RedImperator wrote:
phongn wrote:However, in another scenario, I've recently read an excellent alternate history where Lord Halifax's coup in 1940 succeeds, promptly taking Great Britain out of the war in 1940. Things...greatly diverge after that.
SAC does not turn back.

Those poor B-29s...

Bychance are you reading TGG as well?

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2004-02-23 06:04pm

Howedar wrote:
Icehawk wrote:
Howedar wrote:Even when you do include the gulags and famines, the Soviets are the good guys.
Elaborate on that please.
You're joking, right?

No i'm dead serious actually. Please explain why you seem to think Stalinist Russia is somehow less wrong or evil, or more preferable to live under than Nazi Germany. Simple question, now answer it.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-02-23 06:08pm

Because Stalinist Russia as a whole did not have as one of its primary goals to expand into other countries (forcing out or subjugating the occupants) and the extermination of an entire population. Stalinist Russia was brutal but the brutality was a temporary phase on the way to something more like today's red China.

Holy cow I can't believe I had to explain that.

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2004-02-23 06:20pm

Howedar wrote:Because Stalinist Russia as a whole did not have as one of its primary goals to expand into other countries (forcing out or subjugating the occupants) and the extermination of an entire population. Stalinist Russia was brutal but the brutality was a temporary phase on the way to something more like today's red China.

Holy cow I can't believe I had to explain that.

Wha??? You seem to have forgotten about Finland and the division of Poland not to mention the fact they were planning to attack and take over Germany and all of Europe in 43. The extermination of an entire population? Stalin murdered many more people under his regime the Germany ever did in its own, just because it wasnt a specific subset or group of people doesnt make it anyless wrong, not only that but the Jews under Soviet russia didnt exactly fair very well either, at least not in the soviet controlled part of poland from what ive heard.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-02-23 06:26pm

Howedar wrote:Because Stalinist Russia as a whole did not have as one of its primary goals to expand into other countries (forcing out or subjugating the occupants) and the extermination of an entire population. Stalinist Russia was brutal but the brutality was a temporary phase on the way to something more like today's red China.

Holy cow I can't believe I had to explain that.

Hopefully you won't miss that part again.

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2004-02-23 06:40pm

Howedar wrote:
Howedar wrote:Because Stalinist Russia as a whole did not have as one of its primary goals to expand into other countries (forcing out or subjugating the occupants) and the extermination of an entire population. Stalinist Russia was brutal but the brutality was a temporary phase on the way to something more like today's red China.

Holy cow I can't believe I had to explain that.
Hopefully you won't miss that part again.

Hopefully you wont miss my entire post next time. Untill then, concession accepted.

Super-Gagme · Post by **Super-Gagme** » 2004-02-23 07:00pm

Here is a whacky theory. Of course factors will be changed. Here are those factors:

-Poland gives Germany military access through their country.
-Hitler decides to win a war against Russia before making any move on the western allies.

How does the West react? Does Russia fall under the entire force of Germany as oppose to two fronts historically? Does Germany still fall short in the end? Do the Allies attack Germany for invading Russia?

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-02-23 07:04pm

Icehawk wrote: Wha??? You seem to have forgotten about Finland

I guess I missed the part where the Soviets annexed all of Finland and herded the natives into concentration camps. Probably because it never happened. The Soviets went into Finland with the intention of annexing those parts of it which were traditionally part of Russia, to secure the flank of Leningrad and incidentally gain a bit of fairly productive territory. They never wanted to actually annex the nation.

and the division of Poland

Hitler approached Stalin offering the eastern part of Poland (part of Russia for several hundred years), and that until then the USSR had no intention of attacking Poland... those facts must have slipped your mind.

not to mention the fact they were planning to attack and take over Germany and all of Europe in 43.

Because Hitler and Fascism were becoming too powerful and required such an overwhelming response. Stalinism is a system which calls for internal power-building rather than expansion or exporting revolution, that's what separates it from the much more aggressive Trotskyite communism. If Hitler had never risen to power, Stalin would have stayed snugly in Russia and continued the work of "perfecting" the ultimate Communist state.

EDIT:
It's very important to point out here that until the signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, Stalin was on the diplomatic line with London and Paris, screaming at them to pull up their pants and take care of the Hitler situation before it became critical. After being rebuffed for several years, Stalin realized that the democracies had no intention of doing a damn thing, so he started to take matters into his own hands.

The Soviet practice of overtaking small Eastern European nations and manipulating them as puppets is a postwar invention intended to create defensive depth. Stalin didn't even flex his diplomatic muscles against anyone but Japan (and in that case, he was actually being attacked by the crazy bastards with multiple acts of war taking place!) until his conferences with the allies.

The extermination of an entire population? Stalin murdered many more people under his regime the Germany ever did in its own,

Hitler got his ass kicked before he had to opportunity to complete his plan. You seem to forget that Lebensraum called for the systematic starvation, murder, and replacement of the entire Slavic race by the "superior" Aryan race. I'm sure that the few hundred million people who would have died as a result of this policy were glad that Comrade Stalin had the wherewithal to take care of it.

You're also only counting the people Hitler killed as a result of his domestic policies. If we were being honest, we'd count the number of people who died as a result of all his policies... that is to say, everyone who died in the ETO during the period of 1939-1945. That leaves him a bit more in the red than Stalin.

just because it wasnt a specific subset or group of people doesnt make it anyless wrong, not only that but the Jews under Soviet russia didnt exactly fair very well either, at least not in the soviet controlled part of poland from what ive heard.

No, it isn't any less wrong than what the Nazis did. But it's a lot less fucking wrong that what the Nazis were going to do.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-02-23 07:08pm

Icehawk wrote:Given the completely different and debilitating circumstances that the reds are fighting under, I would say it could actually come out to a stalemate regardless of their numerical superiority.

What debilitating circumstances? The Russians are going into this scenario with a restocked officer corps, a completed doctrinal shift, and a numerical advantage of at least 5:1 in every important category, and probably 10:1 in men, tanks, and artillery. What are the Germans going to do to make this one a stalemate? They can't do shit.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-02-23 07:11pm

Super-Gagme wrote:Here is a whacky theory. Of course factors will be changed. Here are those factors:

-Poland gives Germany military access through their country.

That won't really work, since the Germans didn't want passage through Poland, they wanted the whole thing for labor, resources and to loot it's gold reserves so the Nazi party could continue to have its cake and eat it too economically (expanding the German economy while engaging in a huge military buildup).

Poland outright surrendering might work.. But then the Poles didn't think the Germans where going to take the whole country, they figured they'd just take the area around Danzing and then stop. So mounting heavy resistance would be an asset when it came to the negotiations.

-Hitler decides to win a war against Russia before making any move on the western allies.

Not going to work, defeating the Soviet Union with only the RAF bombing cities and no America in the war would be incredibly hard to the point of being impossible. Doing so with a hundred fifty French and British divisions in France is impossible.

Super-Gagme · Post by **Super-Gagme** » 2004-02-23 07:15pm

Er, you can't say they won't work. It is my fictional alternate reality. I won't know what you think the outcomes would be.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-02-23 07:18pm

Super-Gagme wrote:Er, you can't say they won't work.

He can say it... because it's the truth. The scenario is loopy from start to finish, you might as well give Hitler a division of dragon-riders from Pern. Pshaw... Poland giving military access to Hitler, and Hitler opting not to go for the whol pie? Silly.

Super-Gagme · Post by **Super-Gagme** » 2004-02-23 07:20pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Super-Gagme wrote:Er, you can't say they won't work.
He can say it... because it's the truth. The scenario is loopy from start to finish, you might as well give Hitler a division of dragon-riders from Pern. Pshaw... Poland giving military access to Hitler, and Hitler opting not to go for the whol pie? Silly.

It is a false scenario in an alternate reality. Suspension of Disbelief man. God, what am I not on Stardestroyer.net? For fuck sake.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-02-23 07:29pm

Okay, I'll play this stupid game.

Hitler invades Russia, but because German supply lines stretch through hundreds and hundreds of miles of Polish territory before reaching the front, because he's not in total control of the Polish rail net, because the amount of aircraft basing available is insufficient for his first-strike needs, and because he hasn't annexed the mineral, gold, and industrial wealth of France and Poland in this scenario, his troops in the field run out of supplies within a few days or weeks and they face fierce Russian resistance--because the Luftwaffe can't do 1/10th the job that they did IRL.

It ends in the defeat of German forces in theatre, and the Poles take the opportunity to back stab his ass for doing such a fucking stupid thing, revoking military access and attack him, thereby chopping off his supply lines, dooming most of his army to a humiliating double-team USSR-Poland rape without supplies, lines of communication, or even any possibility of retreat. Then, as Hitler desperately tries to scrape up whatever troops he can, the Polish Army advances by foot and horse, proving themselves eminently capable of defeating tiny numbers of professional troops and a few hastily raised militia division.

There's the end of your stupid scenario, are you happy now?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-02-23 07:32pm

Super-Gagme wrote:Er, you can't say they won't work. It is my fictional alternate reality. I won't know what you think the outcomes would be.

This is a discussion thread, so posts will be discussed, part of that is point out what cannot work or is extremely stupid. Feel free to leave if you don't like it.

Super-Gagme wrote: It is a false scenario in an alternate reality. Suspension of Disbelief man. God, what am I not on Stardestroyer.net? For fuck sake.

Yeah your on stardestroyer.net. Take a look at the fucking banner at the top "Get your fill of sci-fi, science, and mockery of stupid people"

Want to guess what Pablo and I are doing?

Super-Gagme · Post by **Super-Gagme** » 2004-02-23 07:36pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Super-Gagme wrote:Er, you can't say they won't work. It is my fictional alternate reality. I won't know what you think the outcomes would be.
This is a discussion thread, so posts will be discussed, part of that is point out what cannot work or is extremely stupid. Feel free to leave if you don't like it.

But I'm not writing a fan fiction. Fan fiction is for stories right? I see "alternate reality" and vs threads in Off Topic. So I guess what you are *really* suggesting is I should make a new thread?