Interstellar Alliance (B5) VS Federation Alliance (ST)

[Dark Primus]

Ok for some unknown reason the ST galaxy is maped out with hyperspace beacons so the ISA can jump in ST universe too. They have the Victory and the Excalibur. The Drakh will not attack Earth.

Federation Alliance (Feds/Roms/Kling) they have rebuilt their losses after the Dominion war and their ships can travel at warp 9.999 for months instead of hours giving the warp drive some faster speed so it wont take decades to cross the galaxy or something.


Due to some diplomatic incident it is war between these factions, and the only cross is a huge whormhole that can fit one fleet inside.

[User099]

That's actually a pretty even force, I believe, both sides have advantages
the ST Alliance has teleporters, shields, also quite powerful weapons.. for instance a quantum torpedo at 128 megatons of explosive power as is generally accepted would do some major damage to Babylon 5 station (for example)
B5 alliance probably has numerical advantage, plus some of their ships are powerhouses, and their weapons (I think) are quite powerful energy cannon-types too. Plus, their quick little fighters could zip rings around ST ships and their weapons are powerful for their size..
I honestly don't know.

[Enlightenment]

128 megatons of explosive power as is generally accepted would do some major damage to Babylon 5 station (for example)

'Major damage' is a rather odd term for 'utterly vaporize.' B5, being made of real materials, could be blown to pieces by a properly placed kiloton-class nuke.

Oh, and SB is debating this very issue at http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... adid=32231

[Master of Ossus]

This is actually a good debate. While I think that the ST universe, in this scenario, would eventaully win out, I also think that the Victory is more than a matche for a GCS and probably even a Sovereign. Its main cannon, despite the power problems, is a real monster compared with phasers. I do like your simple, "for some reason they're fighting," though. It's easy and straight to the point. Also, no two ships without ground forces can conquer even a handful of worlds.

[Sam Or I]

Heres a very good Tech site caculating the Victorys
weapons:

http://www.b5tech.com/index.htm

LOL this site might even meet Mikes approval, lots of caculations based on cannon events.

[Sam Or I]

OK, the victory's caculations seem to be very well put together, alot of the site is lacking a bit.

[Sam Or I]

He has a good essay page though caculating:

Shadow weapon : 9.69*10^17 watts (low-end)
Victorys Main Gun: 4.05*10^17 wats (Low-end)to 7.00*10^21 (High End)
Omegas Low End: 1.79*10^14 (Low-end)to 1.19*10^16 (High End)
**Figures checked by Michael Wong for the Omega :)
Minbari: 4.26*10^15 (Low End) to 1.4*10^18
Earth Plasma Weapons: 6.36*10^14 10 4.24^16

"Earthforce armor has a thermal tollerance of no less than 100 Terajoules and kinetic strength is greater than 1.4 Terajoules, possibly by as much as an order of magnitude."

I don't know how much this helps, but its intresting none the less

[Stormbringer]

Heres a very good Tech site caculating the Victorys
weapons:

http://www.b5tech.com/index.htm

LOL this site might even meet Mikes approval, lots of caculations based on cannon events.

A lot of that site is made up, pure bull shit. I don't know enough to judge the calculations on the site but I'd treat them as suspect.

[Stormbringer]

I'd have togive this one to the ISA.

They've got parity, if not superiority, in capital ships. The Rangers alone have something like 3000 warships. At this point the Victorys will be coming off the slips (no Drahk attack) and Whitestars are likely back in production. And to top it all off, member's national navies will certainly help bolster the Ranger fleet. In terms of fighters and small warships, the ISA forces has them completely outnumbered.

In firepower terms, both sides are fairly equal. In term of beam-, energy- and particle weapons I'd go with the ISA. Most of the ISA ships use some form of charged particle weapons. Fed ships seem to have a weakness to charged particles. Getting hit with the on a regular basis won't do them any good. Missile weapons with the Feds. Photons and Quantums are fairly powerful, 64 and 128 megatons respectively. A lot depends on whether they can be intercepted short of their target. Interceptors and other active defenses will probably keep a lot of those from ever hitting. Fed missles seem to home in on targets with no evasion what so ever; they'll be easy pickings for active defenses. In addition to plain old guns, teeps are likely to come into play. Lot's of Ranger ships will have teeps aboard trained from the Shadow War for combat. Take over the fed captain's mind and have him or her scuttle the ships with the crew on board. A potetially devastating attack strategy for the ISA.

I'd give the FTL speed advantage to the ISA. They can cross the galaxy in a few weeks in hyperspace. The feds can't beat that. STL, I'd go with trek. The little I've seen on B5 forces suggest trek holds an accel advantage but not necessarily a speed advantage.

For military training, gear, and experience, I'd give this to the ISA. They actually train their military for war. UFP: space hippies. The defensive skill of the average Trek captain would leave them helpless before a trained military officer. B5 has actual ground troops, armor, air support, and good weapons. Redshirts have rifles, some inadequate air support, and if the previews of Nemisis of are right, a jeep analouge. No enough against a real fighting force. Experiemce wise, I'd say it's even. Borth have just faced a series of deadly wars.

I'd give the edge in territorial holdings to the Ufp and it's allies. They have more, plain and simple.

[Stormbringer]

I'd have togive this one to the ISA.

They've got parity, if not superiority, in capital ships. The Rangers alone have something like 3000 warships. At this point the Victorys will be coming off the slips (no Drahk attack) and Whitestars are likely back in production. And to top it all off, member's national navies will certainly help bolster the Ranger fleet. In terms of fighters and small warships, the ISA forces has them completely outnumbered.

In firepower terms, both sides are fairly equal. In term of beam-, energy- and particle weapons I'd go with the ISA. Most of the ISA ships use some form of charged particle weapons. Fed ships seem to have a weakness to charged particles. Getting hit with the on a regular basis won't do them any good. Missile weapons with the Feds. Photons and Quantums are fairly powerful, 64 and 128 megatons respectively. A lot depends on whether they can be intercepted short of their target. Interceptors and other active defenses will probably keep a lot of those from ever hitting. Fed missles seem to home in on targets with no evasion what so ever; they'll be easy pickings for active defenses. In addition to plain old guns, teeps are likely to come into play. Lot's of Ranger ships will have teeps aboard trained from the Shadow War for combat. Take over the fed captain's mind and have him or her scuttle the ships with the crew on board. A potetially devastating attack strategy for the ISA.

I'd give the FTL speed advantage to the ISA. They can cross the galaxy in a few weeks in hyperspace. The feds can't beat that. STL, I'd go with trek. The little I've seen on B5 forces suggest trek holds an accel advantage but not necessarily a speed advantage.

For military training, gear, and experience, I'd give this to the ISA. They actually train their military for war. UFP: space hippies. The defensive skill of the average Trek captain would leave them helpless before a trained military officer. B5 has actual ground troops, armor, air support, and good weapons. Redshirts have rifles, some inadequate air support, and if the previews of Nemisis of are right, a jeep analouge. No enough against a real fighting force. Experiemce wise, I'd say it's even. Borth have just faced a series of deadly wars.

I'd give the edge in territorial holdings to the Ufp and it's allies. They have more, plain and simple.

[Dark Primus]

I'd have togive this one to the ISA.

They've got parity, if not superiority, in capital ships. The Rangers alone have something like 3000 warships.

JMS said 150-180 Whitestars were built during the Shadow war, and large number of those were destroyed. Even During Drakh attack on Earth i don't see the 3000 ships number you stated the Rangers have.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

If we use B5tech, the Victory gun is between 95 megatons to 200 gigatons. The Omega gun 860 kilotons/sec and 2.8 megatons for maximum power.

[Stormbringer]

Even During Drakh attack on Earth i don't see the 3000 ships number you stated the Rangers have.

Centauri Trilogy, completely canon per JMS. The Centauri were planning to attack the ISA and had oer 3000 ships. Since the ships were had Shadow tech built into them and were supposed to be superior to ISA ships, parity in numbers makes rational sense.

[Enlightenment]

Victorys Main Gun: 4.05*10^17 wats (Low-end)to 7.00*10^21 (High End)

There's a problem here. Depending on which values are used for the Defeat class' mass and acceleration stats, it's very easy to run into a situation where sustained propulsion power demands vastly exceed the power needed to fire the gun. This obviously means that the long delay between gun shots is not strictly necessary. This is not to say that the calcs are wrong, merely that the canon is irrecoverably flawed.

[Crown]

Um just to add my two cents;

Originally posted by Stormbringer

Centauri Trilogy, completely canon per JMS. The Centauri were planning to attack the ISA and had oer 3000 ships. Since the ships were had Shadow tech built into them and were supposed to be superior to ISA ships, parity in numbers makes rational sense.

Yes it does, however the ISA doesn't have any of these numbers. JMS said that only 180 whitestars were ever built. However the 3000 cap ship number is because, how can you attack the ISA militarily? Honestly you can't, but you can attack it's members, the Drazi the Narn and others, (the Minbari if you were crazy enough). So in summation, the numbers that were mentioned in the book as 3000 were more likely in reference to the number of ships required to cause damage and attack the members of the ISA. Not the ISA it's self. It's like the UN, sort of, the UN doesn't have a standing army, just member nations who vulenteer their troops to it's cause.

I hope that made sense.

[seanrobertson]

Heres a very good Tech site caculating the Victorys
weapons:

http://www.b5tech.com/index.htm

LOL this site might even meet Mikes approval, lots of caculations based on cannon events.

Shameless plug:

Try http://www.babtech-onthe.net/alliance/excalibur.html
for a more...erhm..."cogent" take on the Victories. Brandon tends
to make a lot of assumptions that don't hold up very well under scrutiny;
e.g., assuming the asteroids in "A Call To Arms" were VAPORIZED when
they were only shattered.

Sean
Analyst http://www.babtech-onthe.net/

[fgalkin]

Heres a very good Tech site caculating the Victorys
weapons:

http://www.b5tech.com/index.htm

LOL this site might even meet Mikes approval, lots of caculations based on cannon events.

Shameless plug:

Try http://www.babtech-onthe.net/alliance/excalibur.html
for a more...erhm..."cogent" take on the Victories. Brandon tends
to make a lot of assumptions that don't hold up very well under scrutiny;
e.g., assuming the asteroids in "A Call To Arms" were VAPORIZED when
they were only shattered.

Sean
Analyst http://www.babtech-onthe.net/

Note that he is recommending his own site.

[Crown]

Why does everyone seem to bag b5tech? What are people's views as to why it is wrong?

[seanrobertson]

I'd have togive this one to the ISA.

They've got parity, if not superiority, in capital ships. The Rangers alone have something like 3000 warships. At this point the Victorys will be coming off the slips (no Drahk attack) and Whitestars are likely back in production. And to top it all off, member's national navies will certainly help bolster the Ranger fleet. In terms of fighters and small warships, the ISA forces has them completely outnumbered.

I can't agree here. I think their fleet sizes are actually fairly similar,
if not giving away an advantage to the Alpha Quadrant Alliance.

In "Tacking Into the Wind," the Klingons were able to hold the line
against 20 to 1 odds with their 1,500 ship fleet. (Note: that's not
necessarily their entire fleet; it was the number of ships quickly
modified to counter the Breen weapon.)

By the time of the series finale, the Alliance was winning the war. No doubt they did so with fewer ships--a Nebula-class ship, Warbird, or Klingon battlecruiser are worth several Jem'Hadar attack ships, for instance--but their overall numbers could not have been orders of magnitude less than
the Dominion's combined fleet. Simply put, Alliance ships aren't THAT
much better than their "Axis" counterparts in the Dominion War.

Also, the 3,000 ship fleet was Centauri, and it was capable of giving
the entire ISA a pretty hard time. IIRC, it was built over the span of
something like twenty years...not terribly impressive.

In firepower terms, both sides are fairly equal. In term of beam-, energy- and particle weapons I'd go with the ISA. Most of the ISA ships use some form of charged particle weapons. Fed ships seem to have a weakness to charged particles.

Hmm...not necessarily. It seems pretty likely, but I know of little
evidence that suggests Minbari et al. weapons would be any better
against shields than, say, a phaser would.

I also can't agree that ISA beam weapons are overall more combat effective (for whatever reason)...the ISA, after all, includes a *lot* of races; only if we guess the average ship is a Minbari Warcruiser *might* we think the Federation Alliance could be markedly outgunned.

Even then, it's unlikely. A doomsday device for the ISA's forerunner, the ISA, is a 500 megaton bomb. A doomsday device along the lines of the Alliance would be something akin to the Cardassian Dreadnought at 21 gigatons.

That's a crude gauge of any ship's firepower, to be sure, but
it does speak to the respective resources and power generation abilities
of the two groups; i.e., a military power actually slightly inferior to any
individual member of the Alliance can field devices two orders of magnitude
more energetic than what the AoL used in utter desperation. (If the
DS9 TM is to be believed, those Dreadnought-type missiles weren't
exactly rare, either. Whereas the AoL was limited to some 40-odd large
tactical nukes, the Cardassians can supposedly crank out many dozens
of these smart missiles annually.)

In the Alliance, you're potentially looking at more than three times what
the Cardassians could make to wage war in a year; and, one would have to think that--especially given the Romulan and Klingons' similarly militaristic cultures--where only the Cardies poured considerable energy and firepower into smart missiles, the Alliance would allocate such resources to make sturdier, meaner warships. For example, the Klingons aren't dumping a metric ton charge of AM into a big missile--at least, that we know of. They'd be using that AM, not to mention the materials for spaceframes,
to power and build Vor'cha-class cruisers, to give each photorp in
the fleet an extra gram of antimatter (or whatever).

That, or the Klingons and Romulans simply don't use what they have at hand as well as the Cardies do...a proposition I find rather hard to believe (though it does make a little sense WRT the Federation).

Of course, there are certainly more direct ways to compare the Alliance's
beam weaponry to that of the ISA's, but we don't have a lot to work
with in looking at the latter--pretty much just the VCD and WSs.

Getting hit with the on a regular basis won't do them any good. Missile weapons with the Feds. Photons and Quantums are fairly powerful, 64 and 128 megatons respectively. A lot depends on whether they can be intercepted short of their target. Interceptors and other active defenses will probably keep a lot of those from ever hitting.

Nailing a photorp shouldn't be that hard, but keep in mind that proximity
blasts from even a two megaton device did nasty things to the Minbari
flagship.

(Aside: If photorps and quantums were actually that powerful, I'd go ahead
and write off the ISA right now. Quantorps are somewhat of an unknown,
but from what I've seen of photorps used against asteroids (like VGR's
"Rise"), I think most photorps would be very hard-pressed to carry
small megaton-ranged warheads--something strongly hinted to in Michael's
recent analysis of "The Pegasus.")

Fed missles seem to home in on targets with no evasion what so ever; they'll be easy pickings for active defenses. In addition to plain old guns, teeps are likely to come into play. Lot's of Ranger ships will have teeps aboard trained from the Shadow War for combat. Take over the fed captain's mind and have him or her scuttle the ships with the crew on board. A potetially devastating attack strategy for the ISA.

The Rangers make up a small percentage of the ISA, however. The
telepath must also keep line-of-sight with his/her target to do much good.
Since Shadow ships and their pilots were essentially "one," just seeing
a Shadow ship might be enough to mess with it; seeing a Galaxy,
OTOH, isn't directly sensing its distinct captain. As the two aren't physically
merged in any meaningful sense, jamming a Klingon, human, Romulan
etc. captain might prove difficult unless you manage to keep them on
the main viewer throughout the battle.

I'd give the FTL speed advantage to the ISA. They can cross the galaxy in a few weeks in hyperspace. The feds can't beat that. STL, I'd go with trek. The little I've seen on B5 forces suggest trek holds an accel advantage but not necessarily a speed advantage.

Of course, acceleration in STL is everything: a "top speed" is meaningless
in space. But FTL? Definitely goes to the ISA. Even warp 9.999 (or whatever the parameters of the thread laid out) is probably only
a few tens of thousand c. A few hundred thousand c at MOST...I honestly
don't know. VGR's absolute top speed was supposedly 20,000-something
c, according to Tom Paris in "The 37s." Presumably this could only
be maintained for a few moments at most.

For military training, gear, and experience, I'd give this to the ISA. They actually train their military for war. UFP: space hippies. The defensive skill of the average Trek captain would leave them helpless before a trained military officer. B5 has actual ground troops, armor, air support, and good weapons.

They'd whip up on the Federation ground forces, though I don't recall
them having any canon armor or any weapons better than phasers.
They might also face stiffer opposition from the Klingons and Romulans
who, I hope, would fight a *little* more sensibly planetside than they
would on DS9's Promenade!

Redshirts have rifles, some inadequate air support, and if the previews of Nemisis of are right, a jeep analouge. No enough against a real fighting force. Experiemce wise, I'd say it's even. Borth have just faced a series of deadly wars.

Yes, definitely.

I'd give the edge in territorial holdings to the Ufp and it's allies. They have more, plain and simple.

They seem to be substantially larger, though their spheres of influence
might not cover the same raw amount of space the ISA does. So far
as I remember, the ISA was a galaxy-spanning power. Even if it didn't
have a million worlds or somesuch, their ability to wage war at such
distances couldn't hurt 'em.

Sean
Analyst http://www.babtech-onthe.net/

[seanrobertson]

Heres a very Note that he is recommending his own site.

Are you new to the language or something? A real "skimmer"/poor
reader?

I said,

"SHAMELESS PLUG."

I think that's pretty straight-forward, though I have to admit it was
tongue-in-cheek: of COURSE I'm recommending the site. Why shouldn't I?
Brian has every right to be proud of that work. At least he didn't assume *shattered* asteroids were VAPORIZED.

Roll those eyes back on towards yourself...

Sean
Analyst [url]http://www.babtech-onthe.net/[url]

[seanrobertson]

Why does everyone seem to bag b5tech? What are people's views as to why it is wrong?

I don't bag the entire site, but its conclusions are far from perfect.
(I'm trying very hard to be diplomatic, here...I can only think of
so many euphemisms for "bad.")

Let's take its approach to the VCD's firepower.


Low-End figures for standard Quantum Discharge Cannons based upon the vaporization of a Drakh Raider by this weapon in A Call to Arms. The Drakh Raider is estimated to be some 215 meters in length, with a mass of 75,510 metric tons. If comprised of iron, vaporization point equals 7.8*106 joule per kilogram. Total low-end energy required to bring Drakh Raider to vaporization would be 5.9*1014 watt.


That's real nice, but there's a slight problem: Drakh ships are NOT inert.
It's considered rather bad form to try to estimate firepower based on
an explosive target. An extreme example of this would be pointing
out that Luke's protorps blew up the Death Star in Star Wars. Did
the protorps *themselves* release enough energy to blow the thing
up so violently, or did the DS's reactor have something to do with
it?

I also find the precision of that mass estimate sorta comical. You'll note
that no explanation is offered as to why the entire ship's mass was vaporized SOLELY by the VCD's weapons, let alone how the author of
said document derived that mass.

Anyhow, let's continue with why B5Tech's claims at being "scientific"
are offensive.


Given that the beam went right though the Drakh Raider and the fact that Drakh vessels are not made of iron, this weapon is probably much more powerful than what is stated in the low-end figure. If the Drakh vessel is comprised of matterials as strong as those used by the Minbari, then the Quantum Discharge cannon would have to had fired a beam rated at no less than 4.7*1016 watt.


The same Minbari armor that failed to save Black Star from being
destroyed? LOL. Again, the author of the document wishes to pretend
that starships are solid ingots of armor. This is not so.

We'll ignore the fact that there's very little indication that Minbari armor
is very strong (remember that Starfury diving through one Warcruiser's
dorsal fin? BOOM!), or that the Drakh would even NEED armor as "strong"
as the Minbari's. Maybe they could make up for a relative deficit
in armor with far greater maneuverability and electronic defenses?
Such a possibility--a likelihood, actually, given that most of the Drakh
fleet IS comprised of the Raiders--is totally ignored.

One other thing, and I'll let this snippet go. That is, one does not
need to VAPORIZE an entire ship to punch a hole through it. That the
"beam keeps going" doesn't mean jack; it might've vaporized a few
cubic meters of the target's outer hull on one side, blown up a weapons
battery, hit a power conduit, hit a reactor or engine, then simply smashed
out the other side of the target--or any number of other possibilities.
You don't even have to vaporize armor to penetrate it, for God's sake...
there is more to material strength than its vapor point!


Taking into account that the beam went right through the Drakh ship, her mass offering almost no resistance to the Excalibur's intense weapons discharge, it is likely that the average output of the Excalibur's secondary beam weapons is in excess of 1.0*1017 watt.


In other words, 100,000 terawatts.

That's odd. In "The Long Road" those 100,000 terawatt beams didn't even scorch trees a few METERS from where it hit a mine.

No, wait: that mine wasn't fired on by the secondary weapons. It
was fired on by the main gun! Oops.

Two words: false dilemma. One needn't vaporize an entire ship's mass
for a weapon to go through it. The armor could simply buckle if, indeed,
that was what was actually *hit*; the beam could've blasted through
a gunport or window, for crying out loud. Even if some vaporization took
place, there's still no valid way to determine a lower-limit from that
example...remember, those engines etc. do NOT like being exposed
to high-energy weapons.

More?


Low-End weapon output of main gun based upon the destruction of the asteroid seen in "A call to Arms." The asteroid was destroyed within a second upon impact. According to the novelization the asteroid was about the size of a Whitestar (pg. 69), making it some 500 meters in length at it's longest point, and no less than 400 meters at it's shortest, giving the asteroid an estimated mass of no less than 629.6 million metric tons. Given the asteroids light gray color, it was likely comprised of stony iron and not a carbonaceous asteroid.


That's a ridiculous estimate of the Whitestar's overall size--I don't
care what Tim Earls says. Go with the show or go with nothing at all,
I say.


Please note that the asteroid was not vaporized but disintegrated, the beam causing the asteroid to explode and fragment. Unfortunately, the scene doesn't offer much in the way of usable information, as we do not know exactly how much of the asteroid was destroyed by the beam and how much was destroyed by the thermal expansion and/or matter/antimatter reaction of the beam's impact. Still, the destruction of the asteroid as seen in "A Call to Arms" would be an order of magnitude below vaporization.


And the evidence of this is...? ONE order of magnitude below vaporization for SHATTERING something? Hold the phone! Bloody MELTING the thing
would probably require 8-10 times less energy than vaporizing it; smashing it apart is utterly inconsequential next to changing the thing from solid
to liquid, let alone to gas!

I won't pick at the author's odd use of certain terminology, but I think
you get the idea. If you don't yet, consider this, then look at a description of the same event in the aforementioned Babtech link:


In the episode "War Zone" the Excalibur fired on a Drakh Cruiser, which according to Tim Earls is 3,316 meters long... and he would know since Tim determined all the cannon sizes for the ships and vessels in the Babylon 5 universe. Beam went right through the damaged Drakh vessel in a hundredth of one second and continued on for several hundred more kilometers until the beam was out of sight. Given that the beam is approximately 235 meters in diameter, a volume of some 130 million cubic meters was instantly brought to its vapor point. Thus knowing this, we can calculate a more accurate lower limit to Exclaibur's main guns, as compared to the asteroid scene from "A Call to Arms."


A hundredth of a second? Wow. I didn't even know that we could TIME
video like that.

Even if we accepted Tim Earls' post-mordem scalings (strange that HE
determined all of the "canNon" sizes for B5 ships...his name was never
even in the first show's credits!), what B5Tech doesn't even mention is
that the Drakh ship in "War Zone" was a FLAMING WRECK. Gee, that's
a great test of power: blow up something that's already *about to
explode!*

The beam's "diameter" is also rather silly. The beam sure didn't look
like that when it was shooting asteroids (and none of that "the thrusters
were down" nonsense; as Brian notes at Babtech, it is plain STUPID to
test a weapon at substandard levels).

You'll note that a no. of times I point out how one B5Tech assumption from
episode A doesn't match up with a simple observation from episode B,
perhaps my main gripe with the site's firepower figures. Simply put,
Brandon will view something in a vacuum, bringing in ancillary sources
only when it suits him. He flatly ignores when the Excal. fires on a little
mine, the resulting explosion from which doesn't seem to make Galen
flinch (or disturb the trees, grass, etc. nearby). He ignores or is ignorant of very simple givens; e.g., effectively assuming some kind of watered-down
vaporization for no apparent reason, or the idea that Drakh ships are
solid pieces of armor and that any shot hitting one of them MUST vaporize
the ENTIRE ship to explain what we see on the show.

I don't mean to criticize Brandon Bray, the man, but his work at that
site leaves a lot to be desired when it is treated as some sort of
authoritative source for figures in sci-fi debates. Believe it or not,
I have FEWER problems with his work on the Excal. page than I do
with many others!

Sean
Analyst http://www.babtech-onthe.net/

[Crown]

To seanrobertson

First of all thanks for your reply!

So I take it then that your main objections with the figures presented stem from the fact that you don't agree with the assumptions made at generating these figures?

Well that makes sense, because I could see the math was okay, from skimming over it, but didn't pay too much attention to the assumptions. Anywho thanks, I will have to have a closer look next time!

[Crown]

Dude I hope you didn't tire yourself out with all of that, really a few lines would have done! Well thanks again!