The real question is, "What Happens to Trek AFTER...?&q

[Darth Wong]

Tharkun, you seem to have a fondness for long-winded posts.

The big thing is today it takes a few thousand (say 50k) dollars to equip a nice biolab ... and access to scientific hardware suppliers. In ST the replicator can make all of this (its molecularly simple stuff). Include one or two biolabs (say from a section 31 ship, a disgruntled exploration ship or something) and the terrorists are FAR better equipped than anything we see today.

So? What are they going to do, unleash bio-weapons on their own people, in the hopes of killing the few Imperials who are in control of the government? I have noticed that a lot of Trekkies, in an effort to generate some kind of victory for Federation forces, will gladly and eagerly resort to the most unthinkably ruthless and pyrrhic tactics imaginable. What the fuck kind of "victory" would it be to unleash bio-weapons on your own people, for chrissakes?

[tharkûn]

Mike:
More of a penchat for some semblance of thoroughness. I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. If I don't bring up gratuitious examples I will have the usual heckler's gallery tell me I have no proof or I'm pulling numbers out of thin air. If I do I'm told I'm long winded. When I ask for mutually agreed word limits ... the challenge is refused. C'est la vie.

So? What are they going to do, unleash bio-weapons on their own people, in the hopes of killing the few Imperials who are in control of the government?
There are several options:
1. Economic disruption. Release a bioweapon and a warning so the Empire has to devote the energies needed to counteract it.
2. Attempt an assymetrical spread ... find a near perfect target heading back to the empire and infect it. This was a worry of the Pentagon in Afghanistan ... returning soldiers present good targets for bioweapons.
3. Send infectious goods/persons to the SW galaxy. There are what 150 core feddie worlds, there are a million Imperial worlds. The odds that the infection will spread straight back is much lower than it going elsewhere in the SW's galaxy.
4. Cut off the nose to spite the face. Terrorists have historically done things that result in gratuititious death

in an effort to generate some kind of victory for Federation forces, will gladly and eagerly resort to the most unthinkably ruthless and pyrrhic tactics imaginable. What the fuck kind of "victory" would it be to unleash bio-weapons on your own people, for chrissakes?
Well its in character for ST. Section 31 has no qualms about commiting xenocide. Sisko uses biogenic weapons on a whole frikking world just to get Eddington to surrender.

As far as type of victory? One of cost. The Empire gains X amount of income for occupying territory, it has to expend Y to maintain said occupation. As the lethality and incidence of terrorism increases, Y increases. If Y > X then the imperials would withdraw if their goals were solely economic. This is why the Brits abandoned the majority of the Empire ... it wasn't worth the cost of holding. They could get more bang for the buck with a client state ("Dominion" ring a bell?) than trying to enforce rule at gunpoint.

Here are my basic conclusions, with which do you disagree:
1. The most likely outcome is a client state, where some form of autonomy is maintained and the local government retains control of day to day life. This is the most economic Imperial strategy.
2. If the empire wanted to fully occupy the UFP they would need hundreds of millions/billions of troops.
3. If the Imperials give the populace a reason to resist; like say outright occupation, orbital bombardment, complete lack of political influence, etc.; then the number of resistors would number in the millions.
4. Such resistors would be better armed than anything seen in the world to date. Anti-matter is ubiqioutious in ST, as is biotechnology; it's a terrorist's dream.

[Patrick Degan]

OK, back to the fray...

Mike:
More of a penchat for some semblance of thoroughness. I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. If I don't bring up gratuitious examples I will have the usual heckler's gallery tell me I have no proof or I'm pulling numbers out of thin air. If I do I'm told I'm long winded. When I ask for mutually agreed word limits ... the challenge is refused. C'est la vie.

Whine, whine, whine...

So? What are they going to do, unleash bio-weapons on their own people, in the hopes of killing the few Imperials who are in control of the government?

There are several options:
1. Economic disruption. Release a bioweapon and a warning so the Empire has to devote the energies needed to counteract it.

Once again, you keep insisting that this is a challenge to a society with the GDP of an entire galaxy behind it, and you insist upon ignoring not only the fact in contemporary times but the possibility in this scholia that an advanced society may already consider the possibility of bioterrorism and take steps to counter it in advance.

2. Attempt an assymetrical spread ... find a near perfect target heading back to the empire and infect it. This was a worry of the Pentagon in Afghanistan ... returning soldiers present good targets for bioweapons.

Which is why steps would already be taken to prevent this scenario from unfolding as they are in the case of our own soldiers.

3. Send infectious goods/persons to the SW galaxy. There are what 150 core feddie worlds, there are a million Imperial worlds. The odds that the infection will spread straight back is much lower than it going elsewhere in the SW's galaxy.

A method so slow and random that it guarantees its discovery and neutralisation before any appreciable scale of damage to the Empire can be effected.

4. Cut off the nose to spite the face. Terrorists have historically done things that result in gratuititious death

Which only puts the general society further into the occupiers' camp. And in the case of the Alpha Quadrant society, we've never seen a terrorist group willing to risk massive domestic casualties to strike at an enemy. Not the Ansata. Not the Maquis. Not the Coalition on Turkana IV. Not even the Bajoran Resistance were willing to go so far during the Cardassian occupation.

Well its in character for ST. Section 31 has no qualms about commiting xenocide. Sisko uses biogenic weapons on a whole frikking world just to get Eddington to surrender.

Section 31 is an exception to Federation society, not the rule, and their effectiveness had much more to do with the incompetence of the Dominion and the Founders —and even at that, they limited their strike to the Founders. They did not attempt to concoct similar weapons to use against the Jem'hadar, Vorta, or Cardassians. Sisko used chemical weapons and did so in a non-lethal manner, giving Eddington and his cel plenty of time to evacuate and surrender. This is not in the character for the Ruthless Suicidal Nutjob terrorist you insist would be on hand to resist the Empire.

As far as type of victory? One of cost. The Empire gains X amount of income for occupying territory, it has to expend Y to maintain said occupation. As the lethality and incidence of terrorism increases, Y increases. If Y > X then the imperials would withdraw if their goals were solely economic. This is why the Brits abandoned the majority of the Empire ... it wasn't worth the cost of holding. They could get more bang for the buck with a client state ("Dominion" ring a bell?) than trying to enforce rule at gunpoint.

Again, you keep assuming that an Empire which already controls a minimum one million star systems would be overly stressed by the control of an additional 150.

Here are my basic conclusions, with which do you disagree:
1. The most likely outcome is a client state, where some form of autonomy is maintained and the local government retains control of day to day life. This is the most economic Imperial strategy.

This conclusion was reached before you latched onto it. Nevertheless, a period of direct military occupation will be required to create the client state relationship.

2. If the empire wanted to fully occupy the UFP they would need hundreds of millions/billions of troops.

The Empire could effectively control the Federation by occupying key planets, isolating insurgent worlds, and through the employment of the millions of troops you keep insisting they wouldn't have (despite the Empire's population base), backed up by war droids which can be manufactured by the hundreds of millions, and by superweapons in orbit.

3. If the Imperials give the populace a reason to resist; like say outright occupation, orbital bombardment, complete lack of political influence, etc.; then the number of resistors would number in the millions.

A sufficently powerful act of destruction demonstrating overwhelming power which cannot be answered will discourage resistance. Once again, see Japan after Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

4. Such resistors would be better armed than anything seen in the world to date. Anti-matter is ubiqioutious in ST, as is biotechnology; it's a terrorist's dream.

And the occupation forces will be far better armed than anything seen in the world to date. Relative scales. Antimatter and bioweapons are not unknown to Imperial science or military engineering. And you still ignore the issue of how none of the terrorist organsiations already seen in TNG and DS9 ever employed such weapons.

[Darth Wong]

Mike:
More of a penchat for some semblance of thoroughness. I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. If I don't bring up gratuitious examples I will have the usual heckler's gallery tell me I have no proof or I'm pulling numbers out of thin air. If I do I'm told I'm long winded. When I ask for mutually agreed word limits ... the challenge is refused. C'est la vie.

Yadda yadda yadda.

Well its in character for ST. Section 31 has no qualms about commiting xenocide. Sisko uses biogenic weapons on a whole frikking world just to get Eddington to surrender.

Section 31 had no qualms about using bioweapons on an alien species. This can hardly be equated to using human-targeted bio-weapons, a Pandora's Box if I ever heard of one. As for Sisko, he warned everyone to get off-planet so no one was hurt; hardly the sort of ruthless psychopathic "cut off your nose to spite your face" terrorist you describe.

BTW, it has been repeatedly pointed out that the Empire already controls a million planets through force, despite terrorist resistance from groups whose technology is superior to that of the Federation. You have still not presented a plausible case for assuming that the addition of 150 would tax them in any significant manner, or present them with threats they've never seen before.