Bush Pushes for Gay Marriage Amendment

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-02-24 05:43pm

I'd just like to take this post to remind you all that Bush is a uniter, not a divider.

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2004-02-24 06:10pm

You guys might want to vote that guy out before the 50 stars get replaced by a cross. Just a suggestion.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-02-24 06:20pm

Joe wrote:I'd just like to take this post to remind you all that Bush is a uniter, not a divider.

You really shouldn't try to defend his actions by saying that he is trying to appeal to the majority. Presidents have been elected and remained in office without the support of the religious right (yes even Republicans!), so there is no reason that Bush needs to bend over backwards for them.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-02-24 06:37pm

I only saw some small pieces of the speech in the news, but why doesn't someone point out to Bush that other countries effectively *have* gay marriages, and those countries aren't going down in flames?

And then he goes on to say that marriages are a/the foundation of civilization?

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2004-02-24 06:38pm

Joe wrote:I'd just like to take this post to remind you all that Bush is a uniter, not a divider.

Yeah, one nation, under the Christian religion.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-02-24 07:01pm

it strikes a popular chord. look:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/ ... 9551.shtml

CBS/NYTimes Poll wrote:Some 61 percent of respondents in a CBS News/New York Times poll said they were against gay marriage, up from 55 percent in July, and only 34 percent said they favor gay marriage, down from 40 percent five months ago.

support for gay marriage is actually DECREASING the more the issue is talked about. The polititians are doing what they feel the popular position is, that is what polititians do.... thats how they stay in office.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-02-24 07:16pm

The Kernel wrote:
Joe wrote:I'd just like to take this post to remind you all that Bush is a uniter, not a divider.
You really shouldn't try to defend his actions by saying that he is trying to appeal to the majority. Presidents have been elected and remained in office without the support of the religious right (yes even Republicans!), so there is no reason that Bush needs to bend over backwards for them.

Your sarcasm detector is broken.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-02-24 07:39pm

Too dumb to dress a link

a more recent poll shows that in Massachusetts support for gay marriage has pulmmeted 10% since November. If you cant win support for gay marriage in Massachusetts, you sure as hell aren't going to in Texas or Alabama. The pro-gay marriage forces are getting their asses handed to them in the court of public opinion.

Johonebesus · Post by **Johonebesus** » 2004-02-24 08:33pm

Col. Crackpot wrote: support for gay marriage is actually DECREASING the more the issue is talked about. The polititians are doing what they feel the popular position is, that is what polititians do.... thats how they stay in office.

a more recent poll shows that in Massachusetts support for gay marriage has pulmmeted 10% since November. If you cant win support for gay marriage in Massachusetts, you sure as hell aren't going to in Texas or Alabama. The pro-gay marriage forces are getting their asses handed to them in the court of public opinion.

And this is the root of the problem. Americans oppose gay marriage. It's not just Shrubby or the Fundamentalists or the Right, the People do not want to legalize gay marriage. It's a small majority, but evidently a growing majority. I am 75% sure the Right is going to win.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-02-24 08:37pm

Johonebesus wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote: support for gay marriage is actually DECREASING the more the issue is talked about. The polititians are doing what they feel the popular position is, that is what polititians do.... thats how they stay in office.

a more recent poll shows that in Massachusetts support for gay marriage has pulmmeted 10% since November. If you cant win support for gay marriage in Massachusetts, you sure as hell aren't going to in Texas or Alabama. The pro-gay marriage forces are getting their asses handed to them in the court of public opinion.

And this is the root of the problem. Americans oppose gay marriage. It's not just Shrubby or the Fundamentalists or the Right, the People do not want to legalize gay marriage. It's a small majority, but evidently a growing majority. I am 75% sure the Right is going to win.

However, a majority of Americans do not support amending the Constitution to make it illegal, either.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-02-24 08:41pm

Joe wrote:
The Kernel wrote:
Joe wrote:I'd just like to take this post to remind you all that Bush is a uniter, not a divider.
You really shouldn't try to defend his actions by saying that he is trying to appeal to the majority. Presidents have been elected and remained in office without the support of the religious right (yes even Republicans!), so there is no reason that Bush needs to bend over backwards for them.
Your sarcasm detector is broken.

It was on, I just thought you were being sarcastic by saying that what you were claiming was obvious.

Johonebesus · Post by **Johonebesus** » 2004-02-24 08:43pm

Joe wrote:
Johonebesus wrote:
And this is the root of the problem. Americans oppose gay marriage. It's not just Shrubby or the Fundamentalists or the Right, the People do not want to legalize gay marriage. It's a small majority, but evidently a growing majority. I am 75% sure the Right is going to win.
However, a majority of Americans do not support amending the Constitution to make it illegal, either.

Not yet, but the People seem more inclined to outlaw gay marriage than legalize it.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-02-24 09:09pm

Johonebesus wrote:
Joe wrote:
Johonebesus wrote:
And this is the root of the problem. Americans oppose gay marriage. It's not just Shrubby or the Fundamentalists or the Right, the People do not want to legalize gay marriage. It's a small majority, but evidently a growing majority. I am 75% sure the Right is going to win.
However, a majority of Americans do not support amending the Constitution to make it illegal, either.
Not yet, but the People seem more inclined to outlaw gay marriage than legalize it.

the way the numbers are trending, it may be a matter of time before there is enough support, scary as that is.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-02-24 09:27pm

Which "the people" are you refering to? The forty-something percent supporting 'civil unions' or the forty-something opposed? Let's not live in happy liberal cocoon, the issue is far from settled in the public mind.

I was refering the MA ruling and the amendment there that failed... and the upcoming fight in california.

Oddysseus · Post by **Oddysseus** » 2004-02-24 09:32pm

One good thing about the amendment process is that it ensures we don't shove through reactionary policies (balanced budget, flag burning).

To get things going takes a while. The politicians have to get involved and invest political capital behind it. It all takes years (heck look at how hard it is to do to a state constitution in MASS). And in the end, each state has to back. Just one open-minded state can put the kabosh on all of this. If NH or CA were to show early on signs that it won't pass it...game over.

Hopefully San Fran (while wrong to break the law as such - but commendable for making a stand), is a sign that things are beginning to move forward. Trouble is that poll signs are moving towards the negative. But perhaps this is the first stage reaction, the shock and realization that things may change, status quo is shifting. Either the tread of reaction Conservatism will continue, or people will snap out of it and calm down to see the bigger picture and how unfair their stance is. I hope for the latter, I'd like to see the US take the lead in one of these issues once, we're usually such prudes.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-02-24 09:35pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Which "the people" are you refering to? The forty-something percent supporting 'civil unions' or the forty-something opposed? Let's not live in happy liberal cocoon, the issue is far from settled in the public mind.
I was refering the MA ruling and the amendment there that failed... and the upcoming fight in california.

my proximity to the peoples republic of massachusetts allows for access to local media. don't count your victory yet. It is getting ugly. Did you click the boston globe link i posted above? Support for gay marriage in the commonwealth is freefalling. Time to fire the public relations people Alyrium, because the way things are going gay rights will be set back decades. Funny thing about constitutional conventions, they can be called for whenever there are enough votes to do so.

Psycho Smiley · Post by **Psycho Smiley** » 2004-02-24 09:43pm

Those poll results are scary. Damn, this sucks. I hope the Canadian government doesn't look at this, panic, and fuck up all the progress we're making, too.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-02-24 09:45pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Which "the people" are you refering to? The forty-something percent supporting 'civil unions' or the forty-something opposed? Let's not live in happy liberal cocoon, the issue is far from settled in the public mind.
I was refering the MA ruling and the amendment there that failed... and the upcoming fight in california.

Yes, but you might want to stop and realize, if anything "the people" are against it. I would like to see this happen as much as you. But lets look at reality, not a dream world.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-02-24 09:51pm

if anything storm, the lastest rulings have done more harm than good.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2004-02-24 09:54pm

Bush seems pretty homophobic for a guy with so much right wing dick in his mouth.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2004-02-24 10:03pm

Col. Crackpot wrote

if anything storm, the lastest rulings have done more harm than good.

Exactly..... That is what happpens when you cram this down peoples gullet... The Frisco mayor has done more bad than good... all he is doing is energizing the %65 that don't want this....

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-02-24 10:04pm

Nathan F wrote:I really don't know about that. I think it's quite possible that sort of big-government support is centered in a few areas with a very vocal minority. I know this is fallacious, but from my personal experience, most conservatives seem to be fairly libertarian as well.

The poll results say otherwise. Most conservatives apparently want the government to stay out of their own lives, but they have no problem with the government sticking its nose into the lives of people who are sufficiently different from themselves.

Oddysseus · Post by **Oddysseus** » 2004-02-24 10:16pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Nathan F wrote:I really don't know about that. I think it's quite possible that sort of big-government support is centered in a few areas with a very vocal minority. I know this is fallacious, but from my personal experience, most conservatives seem to be fairly libertarian as well.
The poll results say otherwise. Most conservatives apparently want the government to stay out of their own lives, but they have no problem with the government sticking its nose into the lives of people who are sufficiently different from themselves.

It's an irony. They want us out of their gunracks, churches, and rumpus rooms. But if they even have to imagine a world where diversity and ideas other than theirs are so much as discussed, or allowed...THEY MUST BE STOPPED.

Their world:

Everyone can have an AK-47, but if you buy an American flag, don't do anything to it except fly it high. They can marry and divorce so often they get a discount, but if any gay couple ever considers themselves a real family...Legislators can boff their 18 year old intern, but other people shouldn't have premarital sex. Legislators can boff their 18 year old intern, but it is the gay people who are immoral and indecent. They can screw the economy, but gays can't do the same to each other.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2004-02-24 10:23pm

Latest and I mean latest poll numbers on the Issue....

Newsweek Poll conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates. Feb. 19-20, 2004. N=1,019 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

.

"There has been much talk recently about whether gays and lesbians should have the legal right to marry someone of the same sex. Which of the following comes closest to your position on this issue? Do you support FULL marriage rights for gay and lesbian couples; do you support gay civil unions or partnerships, BUT NOT gay marriage; or, do you oppose ANY legal recognition for gay and lesbian couples?"

.

ALL 18-29
Years 30-49
Years 50 &
Older
% % % %
Support full marriage rights 23 39 24 14
Support civil unions 24 19 26 24
Oppose any legal recognition 45 36 40 55
Don't know 8 6 10 7

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll. Feb. 16-17, 2004. N=1,006 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

.

"Do you think marriages between homosexuals should or should not be recognized by the law as valid, with the same rights as traditional marriages?"

Should
Be Valid Should
Not Be No
Opinion
% % %
2/16-17/04 32 64 4
2/6-8/04 36 59 5
12/03 31 65 4
10/03 35 61 4
6/03 39 55 6
1/00 34 62 4
2/99 35 62 3
3/96 27 68 5
.

"Do you think the laws regarding marriages between homosexuals should be determined by the federal government, or by individual state governments?" Options rotated

Federal State No
Opinion
% % %
2/16-17/04 48 46 6

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gallup Poll. Feb. 9-12, 2004. N=1,002 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

.

"Would you favor or oppose a constitutional amendment that would define marriage as being between a man and a woman, thus barring marriages between gay or lesbian couples?"

Favor Oppose No
Opinion
% % %
2/9-12/04 53 44 3
2/6-8/04 47 47 6
7/03 50 45 5

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Time/CNN Poll conducted by Harris Interactive. Feb. 5-6, 2004. N=1,000 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.1 (total sample).

.

"Do you think marriages between homosexual men or between homosexual women should be recognized as legal by the law, or not?"

Yes No Not Sure
% % %
ALL 30 62 8
Republicans 20 75 5
Independents 30 63 7
Democrats 38 52 10
Trend: .

11/03 32 62 6
7/03 33 60 7
10/98 29 64 7
9/96 26 65 9
6/94 31 64 5
.

"Do you favor or oppose an amendment to the U.S. Constitution that legally defines marriage as a union between a man and woman only, and would prevent states from legally recognizing marriages between homosexual men or between homosexual women?"

Favor Oppose Not Sure
% % %
ALL 47 46 7
Republicans 57 38 5
Independents 49 44 7
Democrats 38 53 9

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and the numbers are trending against the legalization..

theski · Post by **theski** » 2004-02-24 10:25pm

Fuck.... forgot the link....

http://www.pollingreport.com/civil.htm