Chechnya

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2004-02-24 12:18am

I'm not sure if this has been discussed here before; I don't often delve into this forum. If it has, disregard (duh).

Also, I'm not an expert by any means on the situation in Chechnya, so I hope to learn some from some of our more well-informed members, if possible.

All right. Where do you stand?

With the information I have now, I side with the Russians, though I by no means feel they're angels. My reasons for siding with the Russians are as follows:

- Chechnya has been a part of Russia for a long time, and losing it would be a blow to Russian pride, and, more importantly, may signal to other small regions that Russia is in the mood to grant secessions, triggering more problems of a similar nature.
This is a slippery slope that Russia must avoid. No matter how shitty the region is, it has to stay a part of the Federation...just as the United States could not allow South Carolina (et al.) to secede.

- Chechnya has no real hope of succeeding as a sovereign nation, compared to how they would fare under the Federation's banner. This kind of short-sightedness pisses me off. If I were Chechen, I should think I'd be glad to take any help I could get from Moscow. It's the same with the Quebecois -- is cultural pride really so important that they'd like to damage both the economies of themselves and their parent country?

- Chechnya would likely form a non-secular government if they were to secede. This should be avoided.

That said, I realize that the Russian soldiers are often behaving in a manner unbecoming of a first world nation. However, this hardly surprises me, and I don't see it as cause for me to support Chechen independence.

Is there anything major I'm missing here? Are there any good points in favor of Chechen independence?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-02-24 12:27am

"Moscow does not negotiate with terrorists -- it destroys them."

I'm with the Russians.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-02-24 12:31am

I too back the Russians, if they went independent would they be likely to become a terrorist state? Or open to a dictatorship?

Oddysseus · Post by **Oddysseus** » 2004-02-24 12:53am

Seeing as I am not a fan of secession I have to go with Russia. If Russia was still Soviet and a cruel despot, maybe it'd be different. As is, this is mostly about pride and stubbornness.

What's going to happen? IF they break away they'll turn around and start suffering hardships, then we'll or the UN will have to act. Better they not inflict all this extra suffering and strain, for a nationalist jaunt.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-02-24 01:01am

Gandalf wrote:I too back the Russians, if they went independent would they be likely to become a terrorist state? Or open to a dictatorship?

Yes, the Chechen separatists are probably receiving funding from some Middle Eastern countries and they likely even received funding from al-Qaeda at some point. They do not have a great deal of popular support; something like 70 percent of Chechens consider Chechnya part of Russia.

As for becoming a dictatorship, I don't know. At the very least it would become one of those fundamentalist Islamic shitholes so dear to Allah's heart if it became independent.

Sokar · Post by **Sokar** » 2004-02-24 05:29am

I've got to side with the Russians on this one as well. The southern border of the Russian federation is literally a patch work of varying ethnic groups, most of which have been under Moscows dominion for centuries. If Moscow lets the Chechens go , they open a pandoras box as their entire southern frontier could crumble like dry bread with no gauarantee of the formation of stable, secular states that would be able to offer anything like a secure border. If you want to make a Russian sweat, start talking about a lack of defensible borders, its a Russian Army obsession, and with good reason. Add in the presence of the oil fields around Baku and the Russians will continue to grind Chechnya into hamburger for as long as it takes.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-02-24 08:56am

A good primer on the situation can be found at globalsecurity.org; anyway, it's a fucked up war and should end, but it's not like the Russians have a choice. The atrocities and violations that go on there are symptomatic of the problems in the rank-and-file Russian military, but that doesn't lend legitimacy to the gang of Islamic fundamentalist thugs and criminals that are the ones responsible for the situation.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2004-02-24 08:30pm

As much as I hate Putin, I support his stance on Chechnya.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Zed Snardbody · Post by **Zed Snardbody** » 2004-02-25 05:40am

As I've come to understand it, its not like Guam wanting to leave the US, its more like Flordia. I gotta really side with the Russians. Everyone seemed to be happy at the end of the first war, Chechnya got a degree of self determination, but it recognized that it was a Russian Province.

Now its fundies, going in where they're really not welcome and just picking a fight with the Russians just for the sake of picking a fight. In between are Chechans who would like to go for a week without an artilery barage.

I guess what I'm going for is, I sympthize with the Chechans, and I wish Russia the best of luck getting terrorists off its home soil.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-02-25 04:24pm

Zed Snardbody wrote:As I've come to understand it, its not like Guam wanting to leave the US, its more like Flordia. I gotta really side with the Russians. Everyone seemed to be happy at the end of the first war, Chechnya got a degree of self determination, but it recognized that it was a Russian Province.

The end of the first Chechen war left the devastated province in the hands of Muslim terrorists and Russian forces defeated, well more exhausted then defeated. It wasn't a happy ending by a long shot.

Zed Snardbody · Post by **Zed Snardbody** » 2004-02-25 04:29pm

Your right. What I meant to say was not so much happy, but they did come out of it with atleast a little of what they wanted, some degree of self control. Now its not so much the Chechyans fighting, but these terrorists that seemed to flock to the region after the first war.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-02-25 10:09pm

fgalkin wrote:As much as I hate Putin, I support his stance on Chechnya.

Look at it this way, he looks like Dobby from those horrid Harry Potter movies.

Still kind of a tool though.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-02-25 10:23pm

Joe wrote:"Moscow does not negotiate with terrorists -- it destroys them."

Who said that?

Post by **fgalkin** » 2004-02-25 10:23pm

Gandalf wrote:
fgalkin wrote:As much as I hate Putin, I support his stance on Chechnya.
Look at it this way, he looks like Dobby from those horrid Harry Potter movies.

Still kind of a tool though.

That's the only way I refer to him on Russian message boards. I tired doing it here, but people didn't understand.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-02-25 11:33pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Joe wrote:"Moscow does not negotiate with terrorists -- it destroys them."
Who said that?

Putin.