ISD HTL Coverage?

Ignorant_Boy · Post by **Ignorant_Boy** » 2002-10-15 03:05pm

I was wondering if the ISDMKII's HTL turrets were actually capable of shooting forwards. The ISD's wedge shape is designed so the ship has maximum firepower forwards, but it seems (from the gun placement) that the HTL's can't fire forwards.

In this picture: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/Xbrooklyn/Isd09.jpg from SWTC, the turrets are depressed, which should mean that they would be blocked from firing straight forward by the walls of the gun cavity, if not by the turret in front of it.

So, what's the general stance on if an ISD can fire its heaviest weapons forward?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-10-15 03:07pm

From a broadside, though, it can fire several turrets. I think the HTLs are designed and placed on the ISD for broadside firing.

Ignorant_Boy · Post by **Ignorant_Boy** » 2002-10-15 03:10pm

OK.

For a broadside, the ISD can fire 32 of its HTLs and can supposedly fire all 64 if attacking from the top.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-10-15 03:41pm

The weapons can be raised an lowered as well, WEG indicates this and we see ISD firing broadsides at things strait ahead of itself in EU meaning either they get around the blocaked some-how, or the turret bases are moblie in a vertical direction besides the normal 360 spin arch

Alan Bolte · Post by **Alan Bolte** » 2002-10-15 04:04pm

At worst, they could fire 32 of the cannons directly foreward, simply by only firing half on each turret.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2002-10-15 04:22pm

Or they could just dip the nose a bit before firing.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-10-15 06:17pm

the firing ahead thing seem to have been the bane of the Star Destroyer. Again i refer back to the Wraith Squadron Books, in one of Mon Remonda's engagements with Iron Fist the Iron Fist, a SSD, finds itself out gunned by a Mon Cal coz it's turbolasers couldn't depress enough.

OUT GUNNED BY A MONCAL??? something isn't right

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-10-15 07:35pm

OUT GUNNED BY A MONCAL??? something isn't right

Well it WAS in the Rear arch, Tradtionaly SW ships don't have alot of weapons in that area because most of the normal things that could do miscive back there are incerated by the drive emissions

pellaeons_scion · Post by **pellaeons_scion** » 2002-10-15 10:22pm

From the pic it looks like it could only bring 16 HTLs to bear on a frontal target. Still a considerable amount. I dont remember anywhere in the books that it describes the HTL mounts being able to move vertically though. I suppose its possible, just seems a little strange.

Perhaps the batteries are arranged like that as a traditional 1800's warship, ie not much manuevering required, just run paralell or close to paralell along the enemies flanks and unleash broadsides like that.

But, it is space and I guess a slight orientation of the ship to bring maximum guns to bear is possible, but I think a commander would much prefer having weapons that could traverse and target independantly whilst a ship manuvers rather than having to orient his vessel to deliver a decent attack.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-10-15 10:26pm

More likely the ISD is designed to be able to bring all of its weapons to bear in a dorsal arc. This would actually make sense, as that protects the hangar bay while it is launching and recovering fighters, and is a good way to fire on a planet or a fixed installation, as well as another capital ship.

pellaeons_scion · Post by **pellaeons_scion** » 2002-10-15 10:29pm

That would make sense. It would also mean that a possible standard attack by an ISD would be made by approaching an enemy on either a downward descent, or cutting underneath their flight path...

Perhaps its intentional to exploit the fact that many vessels have poor weapons coverage in the bottom arc?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-10-15 10:31pm

Remember, though, that the ISD is said to have a fairly good roll rate. It is a standard maneuver for the ship to rotate in an effort to bring fresh, undamaged shields and present them to large threats.

pellaeons_scion · Post by **pellaeons_scion** » 2002-10-15 10:37pm

Would have to be a fairly rapid roll rate to use that tactic though. I mean, you fire a broadside, then your beginning your roll whilst your guns are charging to a) bring fresh shields to bear, and b) fully charged guns.

Wouldnt just using yaw to orient your vessel work just as well? The principle would be the same, and your guns wouldnt have to perform as many targeting calculations during a yaw turn than a roll?

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-10-16 09:06am

Considering the 2 second recharge rate of the HTL's, it would have to be able to turn 180' in less than 2 seconds. So it would need 0.01 seconds for each degree of arc. Assuming that it fired a simultaneous broadside. If it fired its guns sequentially and intends to have then all charged by the completion of the roll, it could be considerably longer.

Moo's is right the dagger shape, is clearly intended to maximize the the number of guns that can bear forward. So a 'Dorsal Broadside' allows for far more weapons on to have a line of site to the target than any other quarter.

The ISD MKII turret arrangement looks like it could easily engage at minimum three heavy targets.

Target 1: In the forward takes fire from the two forward most HTL turrets on each side, fired in concert with the most of the MTL. For 16 heavy guns (5 TT ea) and 60? medium guns (250 GT ea), 95 TT total.

Target 2&3: On the port and starboard beams are served by 3 HTL each. For 24 guns (5 TT ea) per target, 120 TT each.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-10-16 04:18pm

Q: "How many HTLs can an ISD bring to bear on a target?"
A: Enough

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-10-16 04:33pm

Muad'Dib wrote:the firing ahead thing seem to have been the bane of the Star Destroyer. Again i refer back to the Wraith Squadron Books, in one of Mon Remonda's engagements with Iron Fist the Iron Fist, a SSD, finds itself out gunned by a Mon Cal coz it's turbolasers couldn't depress enough.

OUT GUNNED BY A MONCAL??? something isn't right

You do recall that in Iron Fist they had just shot their way out of hte Kuat Shipyards after stealing the RAzor's Kiss, having engaged at least two ISDs (plus TIEs and possibly unknown other ships and fixed defenses) right?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-10-16 06:33pm

aye maybe, but is that an excuse, it's a fucking SSD, it's suposed to be a fleet on it's own, it should never be out gunned by anone ship

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-10-16 07:22pm

Star Wars shielding technology is one reason for designing ISD's in a broadside firing manner, as we know anything below the shields rating will pretty much do zilch, and it doesn't matter if the thing can lay twice the amount of firepower of the shields rating if it's spaced out over several seconds, for this reason massed salvos of heavy firepower is wanted, and besides the ISD's arsenal of many many weaker weapons is usually enough to take on most enemies.

pellaeons_scion · Post by **pellaeons_scion** » 2002-10-16 08:16pm

Thanks for that HDS. That comment cleared up some points in my mind regarding ship-to-ship warfare

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-10-17 03:56am

Muad'Dib wrote:aye maybe, but is that an excuse, it's a fucking SSD, it's suposed to be a fleet on it's own, it should never be out gunned by anone ship

Its not an "excuse" its a situational limitation, like the problem of being unable to bring only the guns they could depress far enough to bear. LEts try and elaborate:

Regarding the guns to "depress" - Since most ISD's tend to mount their big primary turrets (IE the octets on the ISD-2 and the super-heavy twin TLs on the ISD-1) on the dorsal side, its probable that the Mon Remonda placed itself below the midline of the starship. This would indeed hamper an Executor-class' firepower (especially if the Mon Cal cruiser mounts HTL turrets or equivalents which IT could bring to bear) Its possible the angle was also enough to prevent other guns from depressing (for whatever reason - we dont neccesarily KNOW why, they just couldn't.)

As for the "Kuat" battle: its not an excuse, as I said. The Iron Fist was engaged in combat while the Razor's Kiss ran, and apparently sustained damage in the process. It was also stated that the TIEs from the ship were making strafing runs on the Iron Fist. While TIEs lasers can't dio much against a capital ship, they can still take out "soft" targets - sensor domes, communications antennae, and gun turrets are examples. If prior battle damage had knocked down or overloaded shielding along one side or facing, TIEs could easily have gotten in and started picking off weapons turrets, reducing the ship's ability to inflict damage.

And since you consider it such an "excuse", lets do a bit more research. Even going by WEG figures, (which are reproduced on the SW) The guns on an Executor would easily outnumber (as well as outdo it in firepower) any *single* Mon Cal cruiser.

http://daltonator.net/mks/ISB/Ch5.htm

http://www.starwars.com/databank/starsh ... er/eu.html

http://www.galacticempiredatabank.com/SSD.html

Therefore, there are only two answers to explain the event:

1.) the Iron Fist's armament differs from other Executor-class (making it extremely underpowered!)

2.) The ship sustained damage during the breakout from Kuat that reduced its offensive abilities, and this, coupled with the mentioned "problems" in bringing guns to bear, lead to the targeting problems.

Its quite possible the Mon Remonda was more heavily armed than the 48 turbolasers its credited with (Since WEG and WOTC stats as well as the EU in general have ignored guns before or changed/added stats on ships.)

arctic_series · Post by **arctic_series** » 2002-10-17 11:34am

the mon remonda is supposed to be souped up alot. it's also a tad bigger than the average mon cal cruiser

AL · Post by AL » 2002-10-17 04:52pm

We should also note than Mon Cal cruisers have slots or gun ports that contain the tl. These ship would have a higher resrticted firing arc compared to that of an ISD or SSD.