The 10 Crossover Comandments - a test of a writers guide

[Majin Gojira]

Working Idea as a writers aid, looking for analysis of the 10, how they need to be tweeked

Well: there they are:
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• The Crossover Commandments:
  
  1. Thou Shall Not Cross Over Without A Legitimate Reason
  
  a. “Helping” With a Canonical Problem Is Not A Legitimate Reason, As It Is Insulting To Both Groups
  
  EX: If Group A comes to help Group B It assumes that Group A is Superior to Group B, and assumes that Group B cannot solve their own problems without intervention. Painting Group A as arrogant and condescending.
  
  b. Crossing Over Only To ‘Ship Stinks Of The Foulness Of Mary Sue
  
  c. Crossing Over Simply Because It Would Be “Neat” Is Not A Legitimate Reason
  
  2. Thou Shalt Know And Represent Both Sources
  
  a. Character Bashing And Uber-Wanking of Known Characters is Bad
  
  b. No One Will Be Totally Upstaged by another character, for that is the foulness of Mary Sue
  
  c. In the case of a 'versus' event, one shall represent both sources as they are presented.
  
  3. Thou Shalt Avoid the Recitation of Mighty Deeds
  
  a. Especially When Characters First Meet
  
  4. Thou Shall Not Egregiously Mix Thy Genres
  
  a. Genre Being The Larger Group/Style of the Media in Question (IE: Sci-Fi, Cop Show, Etc). Exceptions Are Only Permissible When The Differences Between the Genre’s are the Focus of the Story.
  
  5. Thou Shall Not Mix Contradicting Universes
  
  a. IE: Thou Shall Not Assume That Dragon Ball Z and Buffy the Vampire Slayer Exist in the Same Universe.
  
  b. Use of Portals to Overcome this is Highly Recommended
  
  6. Thou Shall Not Randomly Pair Up Characters
  
  7. Thou Shall Not Make Assumptions Of A Characters Sexual Orientation Beyond What Is Displayed. No Interpretations. No Exceptions
  
  a. Willow is Gay Post Season 4. Deal With it. The Audience Becomes Even More Limited When One Does This.
  
  8. Thou Shall Not Base Crossovers On Trivial Coincidences
  
  a. IE: Wesley talking to an Unnamed Wizard in “Loyalty” (Season 3, Episode 14) Does Not Mean Buffy Exists in the Same World as Harry Potter (As We Have Already Seen Wizards in “Guise Will be Guise” (Season 2, Episode 6), and They are Nothing Like Harry Potter Wizards). However, the Mentioning of Yoyodine and Weyland Yutani by Name Can Lead to the Inclusion of “Bukaroo Banzai: Adventures Across the 8th Dimension” and the “Alien” Series in a crossover.
  
  9. Thou Shalt Mix thy Mythologies Sparingly
  
  a. Thou Shall Not Give Crossover Powers to a Character from Another Series—For when Everyone Has the Power, the Power Loses its Meaning
  
  10. Thou Shalt Keep Long Lost Relatives Lost
  
  a. For it Brings the Foulness that is Mary Sue.

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Opinions? Comments? Questions? Public Admissions of Guilt?

[consequences]

Pi:Thou shalt feel free to ignore these commandments in their entirety if thou art writing for purely humorous purposes, and have stated such.

Pi.a: However thou mayest still be taken to task for excessive Mary-Sueing if the product is not funny enough.

[Akira]

and you just made the whole thing pointless at the first mention of mary sue.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

How's that?

[Akira]

It is a pointless title and it's meaning changes every time it is used.

[Majin Gojira]

It is a pointless title and it's meaning changes every time it is used.

How many Mary Sue's have you encountered? Maybe I should introduce you to a few.

Yes, they are wide and diverse as a 'species', even infesting canon characters with ease. But they do share common traits of varying stages of Perfection without noticable flaw, the dumbing down of canon characters and a general happyness that pervades the fiction.

Accusation Inconsiquential.

[consequences]

Commandment 1, Addendum A:
1. Thou Shall Not Cross Over Without A Legitimate Reason

a. “Helping” With a Canonical Problem Is Not A Legitimate Reason, As It Is Insulting To Both Groups

This ignores the fact that some universes, and the inhabitants therein are gratuitously stupid, often being unable to solve their problems without blatant scriptwriter intervention to start with. I fail to see the problem with providing an outside helper, as opposed to a blatant 'Deus Ex Machina'.

[Majin Gojira]

Have you ever seen a fanfic where Person X comes in to Help the Fellowship of the Ring? Or Some New Teacher (Cough *Buffy* Cough) to Hogwarts to teach "DADA" and aslo comes in to help Harry and the gang defeat Voldermort?

Whilst the posibility of a problem that the canon characters are not capable of handling the situation they are in...like, for instance, certain Lovecraftian characters who get...eaten. The vast majority of "Helping" fanfics are solving problems that already are solved in the universe. And Either way, it paints the incoming characters as overly superior, which is degrading to the group in question,

Do you know of an example where a story needs other characters to help save them where it doesn't paint the other universe as incredibly weak and is not patronizing?

[consequences]

Evangelion? X? Any other anime where half or more of the main characters die in an effort to stop the evil menace?

Sometimes its not the fact that the characters are weak, but that the forces that are opposing them are too overpowered.

[Majin Gojira]

In Evangelion's case, that was indeed the point. So not only would it portray the other characters as weak, but undermines the entire series.

The only possible exception I can think of is when the good guys lose in the end completely...but even then, it would just undermine the series in general.

[consequences]

The characters in Evangelion are weak in a lot of ways, this is readily apparent even without crossing over.

If you aren't going to change anything serious about a series, what's the point of writing fanfic in the first place? There are only so many character studies and minor alterations that can be done before you have to seriously shift things.

[Majin Gojira]

The characters in Evangelion are weak in a lot of ways, this is readily apparent even without crossing over.

Which, dare I say, was the point of the series. Failure to communicate and so forth?

If you aren't going to change anything serious about a series, what's the point of writing fanfic in the first place? There are only so many character studies and minor alterations that can be done before you have to seriously shift things.

I am not rallying against AUs (though in Buffy, I might as well), but against cliche crossovers.

No Where in the comandments are AUs taken as an offence. Sure, you can take it in a different direction: but you don't have to.

Might I introduce you to the only good Harry Potter/Buffy crossover ever written:

The End of the Begining

Let me aslo introduce you to the only Buffy/Stargate SG-1 Crossover not to suck: The Scarab

Both stories adhere to the 10 comandments and don't diverge into AUs. So: Yes, you can write AU's, But No, limiting yourself to canon does not limit you as much as you assume.

BTW: the Scarab is just awesome. though this is only a text copy of the whole thing. the version on FF.net (which is down again) is much cleaner.

[Peregrin Toker]

Let's see if my "Project Oannes" obeys this....

1. Thou Shall Not Cross Over Without A Legitimate Reason

Well, is "noone has ever done a Star Wars/Cthulhu Mythos crossover before" a legitimate reason?

Crossing Over Simply Because It Would Be ?Neat? Is Not A Legitimate Reason

Hmm... I'm afraid I'm guilty of this.

2. Thou Shalt Know And Represent Both Sources

I'm doing my best not to represent the entire SW universe nor the Cthulhu Mythos one. (though by Cthulhu Mythos I'm generally sticking to the original canon of Lovecraft)

5. Thou Shall Not Mix Contradicting Universes

Since the Cthulhu Mythos and Star Wars are pretty far from each other, I think I'm guilty of this one too...

9. Thou Shalt Mix thy Mythologies Sparingly

... as well as this one.


Oh - and BTW, if a character obviously a better version of the author is called a Mary-Sue, what do you call a character which the author has designed as an evil version of himself/herself? A Wilbur Whateley?

[Majin Gojira]

Let's see if my "Project Oannes" obeys this....

1. Thou Shall Not Cross Over Without A Legitimate Reason

Well, is "noone has ever done a Star Wars/Cthulhu Mythos crossover before" a legitimate reason?

Done for:

Character Interaction, Comparison, etc. More than just "Hey, it would be cool"...WHY would it be worth reading? Why would it be "Cool" or "Neat"

Crossing Over Simply Because It Would Be ?Neat? Is Not A Legitimate Reason

Hmm... I'm afraid I'm guilty of this.

To clarify, the story is what really matters in a crossover. If the story does not match up to the level of what is needed for the crossover to work (IE: The enitre story is basically "X meets Y at the bar and the have sex!" then it applies)

5. Thou Shall Not Mix Contradicting Universes

Since the Cthulhu Mythos and Star Wars are pretty far from each other, I think I'm guilty of this one too...

The question I ask of you is how do the universes meet? is it just assumed that they were always together (which is not very good) or that they are just meeting?

9. Thou Shalt Mix thy Mythologies Sparingly

... as well as this one.

Powers in Lovecraft tend to be very...evil...so...I don't really see how you could do that since most of the time this happens it's the "Empowerment of Characters". IE: The Sentinel from the series of the same name suddenly becoming an Immortal...or Buffy Summers becoming an Immortal...or almost anyone from outside the highlander-verse becoming an Immortal. I've seen it...it's frightening...

Oh - and BTW, if a character obviously a better version of the author is called a Mary-Sue, what do you call a character which the author has designed as an evil version of himself/herself? A Wilbur Whateley?

Mary Sue is a broad term. It generally rings true when dealing with incredibly powerful characters who can do no wrong, are loved by all, etc. Evil Characters the author bases on themselves only become mary sues when they pull an Vader and repent at the last minute, die heroically and are morned by ALL. (notice that Vader was only morned by Luke). OIr they repent, join the good guys and are instrumental in defeating a greater evil, die herocially and are mourned by all.

So...just don't let him Die Heroically and be mourned by all. Characters based on oneself accurately (including faults...especially in villains) can avoid being Mary Sues. Mary Sues happen when only a specific set of things happen. Check out various Mary Sue Litmus tests on the web and run any OCs through it. Or, create a non-munchkined PC in an RPG of the media if you can...I've actually found that mildly useful...

[Peregrin Toker]

Well, is "noone has ever done a Star Wars/Cthulhu Mythos crossover before" a legitimate reason?

Done for:

Character Interaction, Comparison, etc. More than just "Hey, it would be cool"...WHY would it be worth reading? Why would it be "Cool" or "Neat"

Exactly what do you mean? That comparison of the two universes and character interaction are the only valid reasons for writing a crossover?

5. Thou Shall Not Mix Contradicting Universes

Since the Cthulhu Mythos and Star Wars are pretty far from each other, I think I'm guilty of this one too...

The question I ask of you is how do the universes meet? is it just assumed that they were always together (which is not very good) or that they are just meeting?

SPOILER:
In "Project Oannes", I assume that the SW and Cthulhu Mythos were not always always together but that they met some 40.000 years before Yavin and the connection then "burned out" 'til 10 years before Yavin.

Mary Sue is a broad term. It generally rings true when dealing with incredibly powerful characters who can do no wrong, are loved by all, etc.

I thought that a Mary Sue just was a particular type of clumsy self- insertion.

Evil Characters the author bases on themselves only become mary sues when they pull an Vader and repent at the last minute, die heroically and are morned by ALL.

I'm not asking whether an "evil version of author" character is automatically a Mary Sue, I'm asking for the slang term used to describe such a character. I suggested "Wilbur Whateley" after a HP Lovecraft character which some have interpretated as Lovecraft's caricature of himself.... but I wanted to know if there were synonyms.

[Majin Gojira]

Exactly what do you mean? That comparison of the two universes and character interaction are the only valid reasons for writing a crossover?

Other's have expressed a questioning nature around this, I believe it should be clarified to something along the lines of "Thou Shalt have a story worthy of such a meeting"

SPOILER:
In "Project Oannes", I assume that the SW and Cthulhu Mythos were not always always together but that they met some 40.000 years before Yavin and the connection then "burned out" 'til 10 years before Yavin.

That...would work, I think.

I thought that a Mary Sue just was a particular type of clumsy self- insertion.

Usually, yes. But they reak of perfection and they are not limited to OC's. cannon characters can become Mary Sue's just as easily.

In the buffy Fandom there is "Uber Military Skillz!" Xander-Stu
The "Cute, Mousy, post Season 7, not Gay and a lot less powerful" Willow-Sue.

I wish I was making these up. I really do.

I'm not asking whether an "evil version of author" character is automatically a Mary Sue, I'm asking for the slang term used to describe such a character.

Don't know of one.

I suggested "Wilbur Whateley" after a HP Lovecraft character which some have interpretated as Lovecraft's caricature of himself.... but I wanted to know if there were synonyms.

None that I know of...Wilber Whateley's a little to clunky...but is apt for now.