Anyone catch the 26 min. MGS: The Twin Snakes trailer?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I can't say enough bad things about the acting and writing. Whoever plays Solid Snake sounds like he chain-smoked for 3 years to get a "bad-ass" voice but really just ended up sounding like he is locked in an eternal struggle on the toilet to get out a massive turd.

Most of it is better. Snake doesn't usually sound so bad; although at least they were honest about how the thirty-year old should sound after smoking way too much.

The "rookie" exchange was just awful from both a writing and acting standpoint. All that stuff about "on the battlefield" just made me roll my eyes.

This is the shining jewel of MGS2: they took all of that shit out, entirely.

I was overjoyed at least in being denied the Kojima treatise on the "horror of war."

The "telepathy" thing was just stupid. Is this a spy thriller or X-Men?

MGS is filled with totally bizarre shit. I've always imagined it as what would happen if Quentin Tarantino wanted to make a futuristic melodramatic war movie while on drugs.

One of the satisfying moments of MGS2 is when Kojima awknowledged the bizarre shit in Ocelot's line: "You are the most impressive collection of freaks outside of FOXHOUND."

The guy with the revolver was stupid. The telepathic guy was stupid. The Raven guy was stupid. Snake's "brother" was stupid. Jesus, that's a whole lot of stupid for one game.

Eh, I kind of like most of the characters. Raven was never very interesting; Mantis somewhat more. And Liquid was just amusing in how he just refused to ever die and his odd-sounding British accent.

The appallingly bad scientific ignorance displayed in MGS1 also always bugged me. I felt insulted; either Kojima was convinced his public was completely ignorant of basic genetics (which is unlikely, due to the high quality of Japanese education) or he was just a fucking idiot himself.

Not to mention the stupid genetic ethics pseudobabble..."You mustn't allow yourself to be ruled by your genes!" Gag me.

One positive of MGS2 (yes, I do awknowledge the vastly over-complex factor in the plot and conspiracy shit of the game) was the fact that its dilemma was over Orwellian manipulation of the knowledge available to us--a lot better than the genetic predestination stuff of MGS; which I thought could've been dealt with a lot better.

[Joe]

One positive of MGS2 (yes, I do awknowledge the vastly over-complex factor in the plot and conspiracy shit of the game) was the fact that its dilemma was over Orwellian manipulation of the knowledge available to us--a lot better than the genetic predestination stuff of MGS; which I thought could've been dealt with a lot better.

It should have been dealt with not at all. Kojima should have had some idea what the fuck he was talking about.

[Illuminatus Primus]

It should have been dealt with not at all. Kojima should have had some idea what the fuck he was talking about.

Well then the first game would not have existed at all.

I suppose it could've focused mostly around the angst of Snake's PTD and the fact he was being used as a pawn by the Pentagon, but then the story is barely recognizable.

Where would Liquid's motivations come from?

[The Kernel]

One positive of MGS2 (yes, I do awknowledge the vastly over-complex factor in the plot and conspiracy shit of the game) was the fact that its dilemma was over Orwellian manipulation of the knowledge available to us--a lot better than the genetic predestination stuff of MGS; which I thought could've been dealt with a lot better.

It should have been dealt with not at all. Kojima should have had some idea what the fuck he was talking about.

Come on, give Kojima a bit of a break. No one in the games community makes games that are anywhere near as high concept plot wise as his. The fact that he choses to go a little wack for some of it doesn't make it any less entertaining.

[Joe]

Oh, it was entertaining, that doesn't mean he shouldn't be savaged for displaying a level of scientific idiocy surpassing the Wachowski Brothers.

[Vympel]

The "rookie" exchange was just awful from both a writing and acting standpoint. All that stuff about "on the battlefield" just made me roll my eyes. The "telepathy" thing was just stupid. Is this a spy thriller or X-Men?

Exactly! What makes me roll my eyes is pretty much that I know for sure that whoever wrote this script is talking completely out of his arse.

The guy with the revolver was stupid.

Revolver Ocelot? I liked him, what's the problem?

The telepathic guy was stupid.

Wholeheartedly agree.

The Raven guy was stupid.

Overdone, but a kinda cool character.

Snake's "brother" was stupid. Jesus, that's a whole lot of stupid for one game.

Well, I can't help but wonder if we can't simply call bullshit on the entire 'gene' crap that Liquid goes on about. Like really, we learn at the end that Liquid was the one with the supposedly 'dominant' genes, and hey, he was bested by Snake repeatedly. Just goes to show it means jack crap.

Metal Gear Solid 2 has a more ridiculous plot combined with a less bad script. Come ON: Revolver being taken over by Liquid's ARM? What the fuck is Kojima smoking, really!?

I think it might be hard for even someone with the connections Gurlukovich did to explain the loss of a helicopter in the first place, let alone a state of the art one. He might very well have simply acquired a retired one and given it to Liquid. Also remember that in MGS2, Gurlukovich's Spetsnaz team was well equipped with small arms, but they didn't have any aircraft aside from the two civilian helicopters (the Harrier and the drones were provided by Solidus).

Those helicopters were military, not civilian- if they had been Ka-62s rather than military Ka-60s (as described in the game), I can't think of a reason why they would go to the trouble of painting them in their military colors (actually, those colors are wrong and are simply the colors of the prototype, but it doesn't matter).

Well, he has said that about 2/3's of the game will be outdoors, but yeah, I do think that the whole jungle thing is merely the beginning of the game much like the tanker in MGS2. Here's why:

The character in the MGS3 trailer is obviously Big Boss, the time period just doesn't fit for Snake. Since this may be the last MGS title (at least for Kojima) it is pretty clear that he'll want to finish up the storyline he built with MGS2. But he can't very well do this if the game focuses solely on Big Boss.

Yeah, I just checked the website and saw the dates- the early 60s is just not possible for Solid Snake; he'd be 60 years old at least by the time of MGS and MGS2. However, the trailer gives a different impression; there's a brief graphic of a HIND-A (with the original, crap cockpit design)- which entered production in 1970.

edit: rofl that trailer was funny- including the references to GTA and Vice City.

f course, this is Kojima were talking about, he could very well throw us all for an even bigger loop.

I would like to see the previous Metal Gear games (those on NES and SNES, if any were on SNES, I personally don't recall) remade, personally.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Jesus, you guys can bitch!

I think anyone who starts complaining about the science of a game with a fucking telekinesis practioner in it is missing the whole bloody point.

It's an entertaining plot based in our world with some overworldly shit in and loads of brances off from our timeline. Okay, some of the acting is a bit corny, but the voices are spot on. This is the same guy who did Spike in Bebop and he had the same damn voice yet no one seems to complain there. He's meant to be a vet who has seen his fair amount of death, think Snake Plissken, the guy Solid emulates and was the basis for his character. If you want to blame anyone for Snake's appearance, blame John Carpenter there.

The lines can be a bit iffy, but on the whole, the story works and there are some great quotes. If you don't like it, don't play it.

MGS2 had some other weird things which I assume aren't tied up. I mean how the fuck does Vamp run on water? I'm pretty sure we're all jumping the gun here, especially the whole Liquid/Revolver thing going on. I don't really think Kojima cares about all the science bitching. When was the last time you complained about FTL travel in a sci-fi? It's the same thing here, it's blindingly obvious this isn't all kosher as far as our world goes so any bitching about the science is moot.

For a good analysis for the end of MGS2 and some stuff on MGS, check here:

http://junkerhq.net/CS/

[Vympel]

Jesus, you guys can bitch!

I think anyone who starts complaining about the science of a game with a fucking telekinesis practioner in it is missing the whole bloody point.

It's an entertaining plot based in our world with some overworldly shit in and loads of brances off from our timeline. Okay, some of the acting is a bit corny, but the voices are spot on. This is the same guy who did Spike in Bebop and he had the same damn voice yet no one seems to complain there. He's meant to be a vet who has seen his fair amount of death, think Snake Plissken, the guy Solid emulates and was the basis for his character. If you want to blame anyone for Snake's appearance, blame John Carpenter there.

The lines can be a bit iffy, but on the whole, the story works and there are some great quotes. If you don't like it, don't play it.

MGS2 had some other weird things which I assume aren't tied up. I mean how the fuck does Vamp run on water? I'm pretty sure we're all jumping the gun here, especially the whole Liquid/Revolver thing going on. I don't really think Kojima cares about all the science bitching. When was the last time you complained about FTL travel in a sci-fi? It's the same thing here, it's blindingly obvious this isn't all kosher as far as our world goes so any bitching about the science is moot.

The closer the story/details are to real life, the harder it is to suspend disbelief. MGS shoots itself in the foot in this regard by blending the two- and quite well.

And can I say I liked Raiden without getting flamed? Really, I preferred playing him to Snake.

[Ghost Rider]

Jesus, you guys can bitch!

I think anyone who starts complaining about the science of a game with a fucking telekinesis practioner in it is missing the whole bloody point.

It's an entertaining plot based in our world with some overworldly shit in and loads of brances off from our timeline. Okay, some of the acting is a bit corny, but the voices are spot on. This is the same guy who did Spike in Bebop and he had the same damn voice yet no one seems to complain there. He's meant to be a vet who has seen his fair amount of death, think Snake Plissken, the guy Solid emulates and was the basis for his character. If you want to blame anyone for Snake's appearance, blame John Carpenter there.

The lines can be a bit iffy, but on the whole, the story works and there are some great quotes. If you don't like it, don't play it.

MGS2 had some other weird things which I assume aren't tied up. I mean how the fuck does Vamp run on water? I'm pretty sure we're all jumping the gun here, especially the whole Liquid/Revolver thing going on. I don't really think Kojima cares about all the science bitching. When was the last time you complained about FTL travel in a sci-fi? It's the same thing here, it's blindingly obvious this isn't all kosher as far as our world goes so any bitching about the science is moot.

The closer the story/details are to real life, the harder it is to suspend disbelief. MGS shoots itself in the foot in this regard by blending the two- and quite well.

And can I say I liked Raiden without getting flamed? Really, I preferred playing him to Snake.

I may not have cared for Raiden(more his I'm a wuss and scream to mommy, yet elite soldier....that or his girlfriend...Rose...urgh)

But I have to agree with Vymp's first statement...and it's something that irked me of MG's since their inception is that he does a very good realistic build on many many parts, and then pounces with some shit that just smacks of either ignorance or just fanciful thought that don't mesh with the rest.

Doesn't mean I don't like the games, but I do complain because many times these things don't seem to fit.

[Admiral Valdemar]

The closer the story/details are to real life, the harder it is to suspend disbelief. MGS shoots itself in the foot in this regard by blending the two- and quite well.

That's what I like about it. It's based in a military and political world like ours but has some crazy shit in it like the X-Files. If you can't accept that then go and buy Splinter Cell instead for it is equally good but typical Clancy.

And can I say I liked Raiden without getting flamed? Really, I preferred playing him to Snake.

Raiden pissed me off no end. I enjoyed the mindfucking he got at the end of MGS2. Kojima said in the documentary DVD with MGS2 that he wanted to see the legendary Solid Snake from another perspective and so made Raiden, the polar opposite to Snake in many ways. A good concept, but Raiden wasn't what I expected having only played Snake on the tanker and expected more.

The plot is so twisty and intricate I love the games for them alone, nevermind the music and (majority) of the script or graphics. But I too would like to see the original games based on Outer Heaven etc. remade rather than a remake of an already classic game from a few years ago.

[Vympel]

Raiden pissed me off no end. I enjoyed the mindfucking he got at the end of MGS2. Kojima said in the documentary DVD with MGS2 that he wanted to see the legendary Solid Snake from another perspective and so made Raiden, the polar opposite to Snake in many ways. A good concept, but Raiden wasn't what I expected having only played Snake on the tanker and expected more.

Hmm, Solid Snake compared to Raiden; well, he's a rookie, Solid Snake's a veteran, he's light haired, Snake's dark haired, he's young and agile, Snake is older and ... not so agile (compare Raiden's cartwheels to Snake's rolls for example)- I can't really think of anything else.

The plot is so twisty and intricate I love the games for them alone, nevermind the music and (majority) of the script or graphics. But I too would like to see the original games based on Outer Heaven etc. remade rather than a remake of an already classic game from a few years ago.

I bet you could combine both Outer Heaven and Zanzibar Land into one game, considering the relatively simple plots. Fighting Grey Fox and Big Boss, not to mention the original Metal Gears, would be sweet. I got the originals via emulator just a few hours ago, but because I've never played them before the nostalgia factor isn't working. Combined with the fact I don't know wtf the keyboard commands are.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Heh, I got the emulator versions too and never figured them out.

But they would be truly sweet games to be remade with modern graphics and have the voice actors do the stuff and Harry Gregson-Williams do the OST.

[The Prime Necromancer]

In my opinion, if your looking for straight military fiction, the MG series is not what you're looking for. I mean, think about it, the entire plot of every game revolves around a giant mech, the very antithesis of logical military designs!

I enjoyed the stories of both MGS and MGS2 for what they were, sci-fi/action/conspiracy, with a military veneer. They did *some* research, enough to make it seem quite authentic to the layman, but ultimately if you scrutinize it closely it just doesn't completely hold up (as others in this thread have pointed out).

As for the script and dialogue of the trailor, I can't say it bothers me. I guess I'm just thick-skinned. To me, it seemed like the whole "rookie" thing was Snake trying to psyche her out.

Oh, it was entertaining, that doesn't mean he shouldn't be savaged for displaying a level of scientific idiocy surpassing the Wachowski Brothers.

Oh, I don't know about "surpassing". At least Kojima didn't make the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics disappear.

Seriously though, the whole gene thing is a rather annoying mistake; particularly since it could be so easily fixed. Just replace the words "dominant" and "recessive" with "superior" and "inferior" respectively. No muss, no fuss. That's probably what Kojima meant anyway, but he apparently forget to do his 9th grade Biology homework.

As for MGS2, my primary problems with that game would be Liquid's arm and Vamp in general. I really didn't mind Raiden.

This is the same guy who did Spike in Bebop and he had the same damn voice yet no one seems to complain there.

Really? I always thought that David Lucas/Steven Blum and David Hayter were two different people. How many aliases does this guy have?

[Admiral Valdemar]

Hayter has loads, the one for the Bebop movie and series is different because of some acting licence in the US at least that doesn't allow foreign work or something. He's usually credited as David Hayter and he's notably a screenwriter since he wrote X-Men and had a cameo appearance as the guard that finds Mystique at the end.

If you notice, even Liquid and a couple of the other MGS stars have different names in MGS2, just check the credits in the rendered intro movie to MGS2 and then compare to MGS.

[Joe]

Hayter has loads, the one for the Bebop movie and series is different because of some acting licence in the US at least that doesn't allow foreign work or something. He's usually credited as David Hayter and he's notably a screenwriter since he wrote X-Men and had a cameo appearance as the guard that finds Mystique at the end.

If you notice, even Liquid and a couple of the other MGS stars have different names in MGS2, just check the credits in the rendered intro movie to MGS2 and then compare to MGS.

David Hayter and David Lucas/Steve Blum are two different people. I'm fairly certain.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Hayter has loads, the one for the Bebop movie and series is different because of some acting licence in the US at least that doesn't allow foreign work or something. He's usually credited as David Hayter and he's notably a screenwriter since he wrote X-Men and had a cameo appearance as the guard that finds Mystique at the end.

If you notice, even Liquid and a couple of the other MGS stars have different names in MGS2, just check the credits in the rendered intro movie to MGS2 and then compare to MGS.

David Hayter and David Lucas/Steve Blum are two different people. I'm fairly certain.

I thought when we last had this debate it was the same guy but with yet another alias for different roles?

EDIT: Seems so.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And can I say I liked Raiden without getting flamed? Really, I preferred playing him to Snake.

No, you're now a nonperson.

Begone, fool.

[Lt. Dan]

I saw in one of the ads in a gamers mag (I don't recall which one) where the pic of the two is cut in the shape of two pistols, and the triggers are right over their manhood. I couldn't stop laughing. It looks like they both have boners.

[Slartibartfast]

Dodging bullets in Metal Gear? Too damn easy.

[Vympel]

No, you're now a nonperson.

Begone, fool.

See, this is the kind of knee-jerky, pro-Snake reactionary poison us poor Raiden fans have to live with. Raiden's cool. He's younger than Snake, more well-equipped than Snake, has cooler moves than Snake, and furthermore, didn't have to be a genetically engineered wuss-boy to beat Solidus, the ultimate of Big Boss' progeny. He's just a regular ... Jack.

Metal Gear Raiden ... coming soon.

*laughs evilly*

[Illuminatus Primus]

Raiden's cool. He's younger than Snake,

With experience enabling him to get through contrived senarios due to playing video games.

more well-equipped than Snake,

That sword is flashy nonsense.

has cooler moves than Snake,

Cartwheels? More flashy nonsense.

and furthermore, didn't have to be a genetically engineered wuss-boy to beat Solidus, the ultimate of Big Boss' progeny. He's just a regular ... Jack.

He's part of Force XXI; they gene-modded all of them, was what I got from MGS1.

And Liquid was the ultimate clone; Solidus had obvious aging troubles in his growth cycle, and needed a retarded suit.

[Joe]

Hayter has loads, the one for the Bebop movie and series is different because of some acting licence in the US at least that doesn't allow foreign work or something. He's usually credited as David Hayter and he's notably a screenwriter since he wrote X-Men and had a cameo appearance as the guard that finds Mystique at the end.

If you notice, even Liquid and a couple of the other MGS stars have different names in MGS2, just check the credits in the rendered intro movie to MGS2 and then compare to MGS.

David Hayter and David Lucas/Steve Blum are two different people. I'm fairly certain.

I thought when we last had this debate it was the same guy but with yet another alias for different roles?

EDIT: Seems so.

That's wrong. They simply aren't the same two guys.

[Vympel]

With experience enabling him to get through contrived senarios due to playing video games.

Isn't that every geek boys dream?

That sword is flashy nonsense.

I was referring to his guns and suit

Cartwheels? More flashy nonsense.

Yeah, but it's cooler. Besides, rolling is just as much flashy rubbish- see: Galaxy Quest.

He's part of Force XXI; they gene-modded all of them, was what I got from MGS1.

I don't remember that- Jack was just one of Solidus' child soldiers, the closest thing he came to being gene-modded was eating a whole lot of something to do with gunpowder to keep him docile.

And Liquid was the ultimate clone; Solidus had obvious aging troubles in his growth cycle, and needed a retarded suit.

I read somewhere that Solidus was a combination of both dominant and regressive Big Boss genes (Jesus Christ, can you believe we're even disucssing this NONSENSE ... but i digress)- I have no idea whether it's remotely canon, but Solidus was made before Liquid and Solid, IIRC ...

Besides, he didn't need that blatant Doc Octopus rip-off, but it still allowed more impressive feats than a normal human could manage.

Did I mention how much I miss Liquid Snake? I can't believe they killed him off and turned him into fucking Revovler ....

[Admiral Valdemar]

Liquid will never die, the fucker survived everything Solid put him through in MGS as it was without a power armour suit like Solidus.

[McNum]

Liquid is one of the video game villains with the greatest character shield. I remember in the PC version of MGS, where you could shoot in 1st person mode (not aim, just shoot) I tried shooting Liquid with a full clip of the FAMAS as he stood next to Rex. The bullets bounced off his bare chest... I wonder if I'll be ablt to repeat that stunt in Twin Snakes...

So Liquid Snake does, in fact, have bulletproof skin. Yet he still though he was the inferior clone? Did no-one tell him that the average human isn't bulletproof, let alone that even Solid Snake wasn't bulletproof?