What is your source of hope & meaning?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » 2002-10-17 09:07am

(Note to mods: yes this is on topic for S, L & M - trust me!)

OK, this was a thought occured to me in relation to the thread discussing a possible inverse correlation between depression and atheism.

When you get right down to it, pretty much the toughest question to answer about life is "What's the point?", and this question can be a major source of depression. If you ever ask yourself "What does it ultimately matter whether or not I get out of bed this morning?", the answer you give yourself will have a major effect on what you do with your life.

A lot of the time we simply avoid thinking about the question - but that doesn't really address the issue. The list below is an attempt at categorising some of the more likely ways of confronting these questions.

The first four don't confront the questions:

For the 'true believer', the question never even occurs to them - they have a purpose in life (provided by their faith), they have a source of hope (provided by their faith), so they never even have to think about the question. Fortunate buggers. Note that this 'true belief' isn't necessarily about God, or the anything transcendental. It could be your country, your family, your children, your political party, your job, your lover - anything that, if it was gone, would take with it your motivation to go on living.

For the 'doubting believer', it can be pretty tough - they have doubts about the correctness of their beliefs, so they can't always rely on their beliefs to provide motivation (again, there are more variations than just faith in God). So periods of strong doubt are tough to handle, because it is very tempting to decide that life has no purpose. The response can be to either try to return to 'true belief' (by blocking out your doubts), or to head towards 'positive atheism' (where you confront the questions directly).

The 'drifters' aren't too badly off - they may not have confronted the questions directly, but they may not be worried about it. If pressed, they might say something like "hey, just enjoy it while you've got it." And this is fine when things are good, but isn't likely to cope too well with setbacks.

The 'negative non-believers' have it the worst of anybody - they don't just have doubts, they've abandoned their beliefs altogether. But they still haven't directly confronted the question about what the point of being alive is - so they have abandoned the hope and meaning their beliefs provided, without putting anything in its place. Depression central!

The last two do confront the questions:

The 'deliberate believers' use some sort of transcendental belief to make life easier to deal with. They aren't interested in forcing their ideas on anyone else. They have a very pragmatic reason for holding their beliefs - they are happy enough where they are, and have other areas of their life they wish to pursue. They point out that their beliefs are essentially harmless, so why should anyone else care what they believe? What does it really matter whether or not those beliefs are true, given that it is quite possible that life really is pointless?

The 'positive atheists' are avoiding any belief in the transcendent, but still need to provide some personal meaning for their lives. Many will select some goal such as "to be the best person you can possibly be", or "to help the human race to achieve its potential", or, simply, "to try and make the lives of those around me that little bit better".

What I'm hoping for in this thread is for people to talk about the ways they address these questions. If you want to criticise the way someone else deals with the questions, I'd ask that you do it somewhere else - it'd be nice if we could keep this one civil. (I can dream, can't I?)

Nick · Post by **Nick** » 2002-10-17 09:21am

Anyone who's read much of what I've posted to these boards should be able to guess that I would put myself squarely in the 'positive atheism' category.

If I wasn't in one of the last two categories, there is no way it would have occured to me to start this thread!

As for the goal I choose to give meaning to life? Well, generally it is the grandiose sounding one of trying to help humanity achieve its potential, despite its annoying proclivity for irrationality and its pronounced self-destructive tendencies. For more day to day utility, it is then possible to ask "Well, that's fine in theory, but what can I actually do to help achieve that?". And a few obvious things come out of it - avoid self-destruction (promote tolerance, environmental conservation, etc), strive to reach our potential (promoting rationality, promoting introspection & self-understanding, promoting open discussion), and don't forget to enjoy the ride (if we aren't enjoying it, then it is hardly reaching our potential, is it?)!

(You'll notice there's a problem here - what is the point of helping humanity achieve its potential? Well, that's a very good question. Given that suicide is the only other alternative, I think I can handle the occasional mild depression brought on by thinking about that question too much)

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-17 09:49am

Who gives a shit about deeper spiritual meaning? You are allowing religious people to tell you that you need something which only they can provide. It's no different than salesmen telling you that you need a product which you really don't.

You want a goal? Life is short, so have a good time and spread some cheer while you're here. Anything deeper than that is either morose or bullshit.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-10-17 10:19am

Hmm my source of Hope and Meaning?

Hmm given who I am.. and what I reperesent...

I know!

Cookies! My Hope and Meaning

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-10-17 10:39am

I put myself squarely in the doubting believer category. I'm smart enough to see all the bullshit surrounding religion and having studied the bible under Jesuits have disected it and had all my neat little Catholic school ideas about the bible and it's authorship shattered (Guess what Matthew, Mark, Luke and JOhn DID NOT actually write the gospels, they came along decades after their deaths) It is nothing more than a hodge podge of authors that have written down ideas over the centuries, its a collaborative effort in trying to define God so thats why we can poke such nice big holes in most of it.

However when I see the wonder and the vastness of this universe I can't help but think that there is some design behind it all. I cannot bring myself to believe that we developed by some random chance. But thats just me.

As for source of hope...it was never really the bible or spirituality, but now it most defeinately is my daughter. One look in those eyes tells me PRECISELY why I must continue on and do the things I do.

Wong, as a science oriented person (I'm just a science curious person with gaping holes in his knowldege) aren't you in the least bit curious as to how all of this came about, not just by some random chance of gasses and amino acids forming and the other things, the odds for everything to happen as it has happened are pretty damn slim as far as I know.

Newtonian Fury · Post by **Newtonian Fury** » 2002-10-17 10:42am

My source of hope and meaning is that fact that people will always suffer...oh wait, did I say that outloud?!

Nah, I enjoy life because it's my life. I don't love it, but it's not bad. Good enough for now, and I'll definitely improve it as time goes by.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-17 11:45am

Stravo wrote:I put myself squarely in the doubting believer category. I'm smart enough to see all the bullshit surrounding religion and having studied the bible under Jesuits have disected it and had all my neat little Catholic school ideas about the bible and it's authorship shattered (Guess what Matthew, Mark, Luke and JOhn DID NOT actually write the gospels, they came along decades after their deaths) It is nothing more than a hodge podge of authors that have written down ideas over the centuries, its a collaborative effort in trying to define God so thats why we can poke such nice big holes in most of it.

Right. But since you were indoctrinated in the faith from childhood, you still have a subconscious mindset which leads you to make (without thinking logically about it) numerous quite profound leaps of logic in favour of the divine. Try not to take that as a put-down; it is an observation I have noted about all doubting believers.

However when I see the wonder and the vastness of this universe I can't help but think that there is some design behind it all. I cannot bring myself to believe that we developed by some random chance. But thats just me.

That's the leap in logic I'm talking about. The universe is big and amazing; why does that imply that some sentient being designed it?

As for source of hope...it was never really the bible or spirituality, but now it most defeinately is my daughter. One look in those eyes tells me PRECISELY why I must continue on and do the things I do.

I want my boys to have better lives than me. I think that's the goal of every parent.

Wong, as a science oriented person (I'm just a science curious person with gaping holes in his knowldege) aren't you in the least bit curious as to how all of this came about

Very curious. But the notion of a divine being contributes precisely nothing toward our efforts to understand. The only revelation you'll get about the origins of life from the idea of a divine being is ... that the divine being did it. Not how, not when, not why, but only that he did it. So the hypothesis helps us predict nothing but itself, hence it is what we refer to as a "trivial solution", ie- useless.

not just by some random chance of gasses and amino acids forming and the other things, the odds for everything to happen as it has happened are pretty damn slim as far as I know.

What are the odds against reproducing the last 15 years of lottery numbers in perfect order? Astronomical! But the sequence did happen, right? Does that imply divine intervention?

Given a random system, ANY outcome will be astronomically unlikely (see the lottery example). It does not mean that anything other than random chance is required.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2002-10-17 12:28pm

fun, whatelse could there be?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-10-17 01:06pm

To try to get laid as much as possible.

That and happiness, but I think the two are closely related.

C.S.Strowbridge · Post by **C.S.Strowbridge** » 2002-10-17 01:44pm

Me. I'm the source of all hope and meaning.

And I don't mean just for me either. I'm the source of hope and meaning for the whole world.

C.S.Strowbridge · Post by **C.S.Strowbridge** » 2002-10-17 01:57pm

Darth Wong wrote:Given a random system, ANY outcome will be astronomically unlikely (see the lottery example). It does not mean that anything other than random chance is required.

I think this fallacy is based in people lack of understanding of the scale involved. There are more than 30,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules in one gram of water. Even if there's less than 1 in a trillion odds it's still going to happen more than a billion times, in each gram of water. Combined with certain rules about chemical reactions (For instance, you'll never find a stable H4 molecule.) and you realize the odd against life not forming are huge.

XPViking · Post by **XPViking** » 2002-10-17 02:05pm

Nick,

Actually if I could just modify your "true believer" category, the "answer" to "what's the point" would be found within those things that you mentioned; their purpose in life and their faith (in whatever that is). In other words, the answer is provided, and then in a sense, the search is over.

I'm a true believer, but honestly, I sometimes do have my doubts.

XPViking

kheegster · Post by **kheegster** » 2002-10-17 06:35pm

Great thread! I'm an atheist, and my motivation is....space. To look up at the sky at night on clear night, I'm just filled with awe. I want my great-great-great-great-great-great....kids up there some day! Read Carl Sagan. Much of his eloquence is geared towards more or less the same idea. I still get a tingle up my spine when I read his works. I'm in university doing Physics with Space Science, and yesterday we studied spacecraft design...way cool!

KG

salm · Post by **salm** » 2002-10-17 06:50pm

kheegan wrote:Great thread! I'm an atheist, and my motivation is....space. To look up at the sky at night on clear night, I'm just filled with awe. I want my great-great-great-great-great-great....kids up there some day! Read Carl Sagan. Much of his eloquence is geared towards more or less the same idea. I still get a tingle up my spine when I read his works. I'm in university doing Physics with Space Science, and yesterday we studied spacecraft design...way cool!

KG

you get clear nights in london?

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-10-17 06:53pm

salm wrote:
you get clear nights in london?

They have a planetarium. It sucks, BTW.

It was a major disapointment. I was expecting, of course, something much better than what we have in Lisbon. To my horrible suprise, it was way worse.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2002-10-17 06:57pm

Colonel Olrik wrote:
salm wrote:
you get clear nights in london?
They have a planetarium. It sucks, BTW.

It was a major disapointment. I was expecting, of course, something much better than what we have in Lisbon. To my horrible suprise, it was way worse.

it´s always good to have somehting better at home. it gives you a slight feeling of pride.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-17 06:59pm

My goal: to make sure that I've changed something. Even if it's only to make things better for one person, I've accomplished something.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-10-17 07:37pm

I don't hope. I force my will into being. As for meaning, I exist.. to SEX!!!

Tosho · Post by **Tosho** » 2002-10-17 08:19pm

Live life to the fullest, get laid, marry, have children ect.

That's all you need to do to be happy in my opinion.

kheegster · Post by **kheegster** » 2002-10-17 09:08pm

salm wrote:
kheegan wrote:Great thread! I'm an atheist, and my motivation is....space. To look up at the sky at night on clear night, I'm just filled with awe. I want my great-great-great-great-great-great....kids up there some day! Read Carl Sagan. Much of his eloquence is geared towards more or less the same idea. I still get a tingle up my spine when I read his works. I'm in university doing Physics with Space Science, and yesterday we studied spacecraft design...way cool!

KG
you get clear nights in london?

We have an observatory about half an hour away from London, but my course doesn't involve practical astronomy. It's more oriented towards space-based research, x-ray astronomy, plasma physics, solar physics etc. We're nowhere as big as JPL, Goddard etc, but we do have bit part roles in many major missions e.g. Cassini etc.

KG

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-17 10:54pm

Nick wrote:(Note to mods: yes this is on topic for S, L & M - trust me!)

Actually, on a completely off-topic tangent, the acronym for this forum would be SLAM. I guess nobody noticed my attempt at clever word placement

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2002-10-17 11:07pm

How about Science, Morality, & Creationist Kicking?

*EDIT: As to not get off-topic here, I must add my source of hope and meaning: I want to be directly involved with the destruction of assholes.

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2002-10-17 11:16pm

I just officially dumped my faith earlier this year. I would actually like to thank Mike Wong personally because he was technically the final deciding factor which lead up to it. These last few years I had been kinda swinging back and forth and then his brilliant Science vs Creationism page and even just SD.net in general played a huge final deciding role for me.

This past year being an athiest has been pretty smooth and I find it funny to see that I used to be so blind in the past. However due to the fact I wasn't raised as an atheist I have had to work myself mentally from time to time to keep myself from getting depressed. Although I will say that one of the biggest things that keeps me going is simply that... There is just TO MUCH to live for in this world. However shitty it may seem at times I find that there is just to much to see, expierience, and to learn. I just find this existance so interesting to live in that I cannot even ponder the thought of giving it up prematurely.

No matter how many cheesy limitations we have as human beings, there is just so much that we are still capable of at the same time that makes life well worth living.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-17 11:59pm

Cool.

PS. Don't worry; it's normal to be afraid of death.

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2002-10-18 12:44am

Cool.

PS. Don't worry; it's normal to be afraid of death.

Hehe don't worry. Ive actually never really had a problem with it. The times I had to deal with depression wasn't over whether or not I have a purpose in life but more so over the fact I had been indoctrinated for most of my life to believe that God exists. That old irrational view would occasionally pop into my mind and start making things a bit uneasy for me with my newfound humanist/athiest view on life. However I have dealt with it and continue to deal with it very successfully because logic and reason always win when confronted with irrationalility and ignorance.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

What is your source of hope & meaning?

What is your source of hope & meaning?

Re: What is your source of hope & meaning?