Federation shuttle craft vs TIE fighter

[The Kernel]

We are specificaly talking about beam phasers. PPCs are not included on the discussion.

Excuse me, but the Klingon flagship was using beam disruptors, not pulse disruptors.

I see, you were talking about OPFOR ships.

OPFOR?

[SirNitram]

What you are talking about requires advancements of what look like orders of magnitude. And these are advancements that appear to be suddenly on ALL fighters because the likes of near ancient Z-95s still seem to opperate. For the NJO to be correct it requires a sudden advance that breaks newtonian science and have the advance be so blindingly simple that suddenly even old outdated fighters can easily and readily updated.

Wow, you know what else breaks Newtonian physics? Mass lightening. You know what breaks Relativity? Hyperdrive and Relativistic Shielding.

You have no case for this argument, Alyeska.

[Alyeska]

Excuse me, but the Klingon flagship was using beam disruptors, not pulse disruptors.

I see, you were talking about OPFOR ships.

OPFOR?

Opposing Force

[Alyeska]

What you are talking about requires advancements of what look like orders of magnitude. And these are advancements that appear to be suddenly on ALL fighters because the likes of near ancient Z-95s still seem to opperate. For the NJO to be correct it requires a sudden advance that breaks newtonian science and have the advance be so blindingly simple that suddenly even old outdated fighters can easily and readily updated.

Wow, you know what else breaks Newtonian physics? Mass lightening. You know what breaks Relativity? Hyperdrive and Relativistic Shielding.

You have no case for this argument, Alyeska.

Well I've heard some people make the case that SW is more scientific bassed then ST. Guess thats not entirely relevent here.

Anyway you still haven't adressed the issue of suddenly every fighter being capable of fighting at such speeds and even light freighters (Falcon) when such speed upgrades are never mentioned and why no one seems not to have these capabilities.

[SirNitram]

What you are talking about requires advancements of what look like orders of magnitude. And these are advancements that appear to be suddenly on ALL fighters because the likes of near ancient Z-95s still seem to opperate. For the NJO to be correct it requires a sudden advance that breaks newtonian science and have the advance be so blindingly simple that suddenly even old outdated fighters can easily and readily updated.

Wow, you know what else breaks Newtonian physics? Mass lightening. You know what breaks Relativity? Hyperdrive and Relativistic Shielding.

You have no case for this argument, Alyeska.

Well I've heard some people make the case that SW is more scientific bassed then ST. Guess thats not entirely relevent here.

Don't pin others arguments on me.

Anyway you still haven't adressed the issue of suddenly every fighter being capable of fighting at such speeds and even light freighters (Falcon) when such speed upgrades are never mentioned and why no one seems not to have these capabilities.

Let's see. We either assume two types of ship we know can be massively upgraded(YT-1300 and Z-95) underwent huge upgrades, or we throw out the passage. Geeeeee... Could it be that ships that are known to be upgradable were upgraded? Yes, it could.

[The Kernel]

Opposing Force

Okay, and it doesn't fit with the theory. Furthermore, we've also seen ships missing at such insane close ranges as the Vorc'ha in "Way of the Warrior" and both the Galaxy-class and the Jem'Haddar fighters in "Jem'Haddar". We also saw plenty of misses at close range in "Best of Both Worlds" by Jem'Haddar ships.

Now, let's forget the issue with the Oddysey for a sec and concentrate on the numerous examples of non-Federation forces missing their targets with beam weapons. How could they be expected to compete militarily with Federation ships with such terrible accuracy, even at close range?

[Tribun]

Trek subsystems are typicaly not very large. Judging by known examples from various ships the largest systems are the exterior engines and the interior power generation. All other systems appear to be no larger then a turbo lift.

So you're assuming there is zero area effect of these weapons, even though they must by necessity drill through hull armour to even reach these systems?

Phasers show themselves to be far more concentrated then most other weapons. In order to effectively down enemy subsystems one would need to be able to strike very close to the target. Using torpedoes would make your need for accuracy less imporant.

And next you say that a runaboat survives a superlaser hit from the DS.....

[Alyeska]

And next you say that a runaboat survives a superlaser hit from the DS.....

Other then trying to incite a reaction and making a very ill-thoughout remakr, what was the point of even posting that?

[Ghost Rider]

So you're assuming there is zero area effect of these weapons, even though they must by necessity drill through hull armour to even reach these systems?

Phasers show themselves to be far more concentrated then most other weapons. In order to effectively down enemy subsystems one would need to be able to strike very close to the target. Using torpedoes would make your need for accuracy less imporant.

And next you say that a runaboat survives a superlaser hit from the DS.....

No vulturing...either debate or don't.

[Alyeska]

Let's see. We either assume two types of ship we know can be massively upgraded(YT-1300 and Z-95) underwent huge upgrades, or we throw out the passage. Geeeeee... Could it be that ships that are known to be upgradable were upgraded? Yes, it could.

Yet you have to assume that EVERY fighter was upgraded. Because we know it was more then just those two. It would mean every Tie. The Y-Wing, all other Rebel fighters, etc... Suddenly EVERYONE has this upgrade. An upgrade that was NEVER mentioned and several times it was indicated older partly maintained fighters STILL could compete against modern fighters.

That just too much of a strech for me to accept so readily. I want some sort of confirmation from an alternate source. IIRC the manueverability was mostly just mentioned in Allstons books.

[Connor MacLeod]

What you are talking about requires advancements of what look like orders of magnitude. And these are advancements that appear to be suddenly on ALL fighters because the likes of near ancient Z-95s still seem to opperate. For the NJO to be correct it requires a sudden advance that breaks newtonian science and have the advance be so blindingly simple that suddenly even old outdated fighters can easily and readily updated.

What the bloody hell are you talking about? Why would relatavistic velocities require this so called "orders of magnitude" advancement that you seem to be pulling out of thin air?

The fighters are not orders of magnitude above what we have seen in the movies. percentage-C manuevering of any significant degree is impossible. This is a limiting factor placed on every other foe that is pit against SW (Andromeda being one of them). NJO high speed manuevering is not possible because of the movies

Err.. what?

[SirNitram]

Let's see. We either assume two types of ship we know can be massively upgraded(YT-1300 and Z-95) underwent huge upgrades, or we throw out the passage. Geeeeee... Could it be that ships that are known to be upgradable were upgraded? Yes, it could.

Yet you have to assume that EVERY fighter was upgraded. Because we know it was more then just those two. It would mean every Tie. The Y-Wing, all other Rebel fighters, etc... Suddenly EVERYONE has this upgrade. An upgrade that was NEVER mentioned and several times it was indicated older partly maintained fighters STILL could compete against modern fighters.

When the modern fighters are completing high end feats, the older models being able to still be a threat would be implicit evidence that they've been upgraded, Alyeska.

That just too much of a strech for me to accept so readily. I want some sort of confirmation from an alternate source. IIRC the manueverability was mostly just mentioned in Allstons books.

I'm sorry, why do we need multiple sources when there's no contradiction, Alyeska? Because it torpedos your argument?

[Alyeska]

What the bloody hell are you talking about? Why would relatavistic velocities require this so called "orders of magnitude" advancement that you seem to be pulling out of thin air?

Sorry, not the speeds, but the manuevering at such speeds. Before NJO manuevering at high speeds was impossible and all combat manuevers were conducted at lower speeds.

Err.. what?

Its a Red Herring.

[Alyeska]

When the modern fighters are completing high end feats, the older models being able to still be a threat would be implicit evidence that they've been upgraded, Alyeska.

Yet several instances show the fighters to be considered ancient and still using the original weapon systems.

I'm sorry, why do we need multiple sources when there's no contradiction, Alyeska? Because it torpedos your argument?

So far as I've seen Allston with his two books is the ONLY source indicating high speed manuevering and is in contradiction with the rest of the series. If you can point to another author who also picks up this, I will concede the point.

[SirNitram]

When the modern fighters are completing high end feats, the older models being able to still be a threat would be implicit evidence that they've been upgraded, Alyeska.

Yet several instances show the fighters to be considered ancient and still using the original weapon systems.

They'd be considered ancient.. Because they are! And original weapon systems == original engine systems? What distorted form of logic is at work here?

I'm sorry, why do we need multiple sources when there's no contradiction, Alyeska? Because it torpedos your argument?

So far as I've seen Allston with his two books is the ONLY source indicating high speed manuevering and is in contradiction with the rest of the series. If you can point to another author who also picks up this, I will concede the point.

Show me the contradictions, then!

[Kamakazie Sith]

Opposing Force

Okay, and it doesn't fit with the theory. Furthermore, we've also seen ships missing at such insane close ranges as the Vorc'ha in "Way of the Warrior" and both the Galaxy-class and the Jem'Haddar fighters in "Jem'Haddar". We also saw plenty of misses at close range in "Best of Both Worlds" by Jem'Haddar ships.

The GCS never missed those Jen'Hadar fighters once in that particular episode.

Also, BOWB? WHAT! The Jem'Hadar weren't in that episode.....are you thinking of another?

BOBW is a two part TNG episode involving the first borg invasion of the Federation.

Now, let's forget the issue with the Oddysey for a sec and concentrate on the numerous examples of non-Federation forces missing their targets with beam weapons. How could they be expected to compete militarily with Federation ships with such terrible accuracy, even at close range?

Perhaps because the UFP isn't a imperialistic type society? Also, remember we're talking about ST here the writers have no sense of logic. I know that doesn't count in this debate but UFP beam weapons still have far superior accuracy when compared against OPFOR.

[Connor MacLeod]

Sorry, not the speeds, but the manuevering at such speeds. Before NJO manuevering at high speeds was impossible and all combat manuevers were conducted at lower speeds.

Er, how does moving at relatavistic speeds suddenly mean they lose any and all ability to accelerate in any direction? Does some automatic safety cut off automatically shut down the manuvering thrusters or something?

Its a Red Herring.

How, exactly?

[Alyeska]

They'd be considered ancient.. Because they are! And original weapon systems == original engine systems? What distorted form of logic is at work here?

The thing is some of the sources (Dark Tide and Rebel series) indicate some backward planets are using out of date weapon systems that have not been consistently upgraded (if at all) yet they are still a relative match for modern weapon systems when in sufficent numbers.

Show me the contradictions, then!

I have not read any NJO books past Allstons but I have seen indications from other readers that Allston was the ONLY one pushing percentage C manuevering. If other authors don't pick up on this, that is a contradiction. Now if what you say is true, other authors had to have picked up on this. Else wise its a one-hit-wonder done purely by Allston. If its not repeated, its not supported and old figures would still stand. Point to one other author who also indicates the same capabilities as Allston and I will concede.

[Alyeska]

Er, how does moving at relatavistic speeds suddenly mean they lose any and all ability to accelerate in any direction? Does some automatic safety cut off automatically shut down the manuvering thrusters or something?

You can not radicaly manuever at high speeds because to do so would require decelerating and going the other direction. This takes time and manuevers would be substansialy slower. To use an example that I seem to remember you posting. Andromeda might be a fast ship but when traveling exceptionaly fast and you wish to radicaly alter your direction, you must decelerate or make sweeping predictable turns.

Now, according to Allston, you through all this out the window and fighters can now maneuver at highspeeds like they can at low speeds.

How, exactly?

Because what I brought up was a red herring. I was talking about limitations other universes are put under and this is not relevent to the debate.

[SirNitram]

They'd be considered ancient.. Because they are! And original weapon systems == original engine systems? What distorted form of logic is at work here?

The thing is some of the sources (Dark Tide and Rebel series) indicate some backward planets are using out of date weapon systems that have not been consistently upgraded (if at all) yet they are still a relative match for modern weapon systems when in sufficent numbers.

And you continue your claim that pre-NJO ships can't accelerate to percents of C. I see, now I get it. You're just ignoring that sublight engines aren't the only option. Did you just forget that a hyperjump involves a rapid acceleration to lightspeed while still in realspace?

Show me the contradictions, then!

I have not read any NJO books past Allstons but I have seen indications from other readers that Allston was the ONLY one pushing percentage C manuevering. If other authors don't pick up on this, that is a contradiction. Now if what you say is true, other authors had to have picked up on this. Else wise its a one-hit-wonder done purely by Allston. If its not repeated, its not supported and old figures would still stand. Point to one other author who also indicates the same capabilities as Allston and I will concede.

Well, we have several instances of it. If they're all by one author.. So? No other ones directly contradict it, they don't discuss the speed of fighters in high-speed combat. So you're making up the contradictions.

[Alyeska]

And you continue your claim that pre-NJO ships can't accelerate to percents of C. I see, now I get it. You're just ignoring that sublight engines aren't the only option. Did you just forget that a hyperjump involves a rapid acceleration to lightspeed while still in realspace?

(sigh). When I've said speed, I specificaly meant high manueverability at high speed. ANH indicates substansial highspeed and acceleration. This is undeniable. I am saying I have trouble with the high manueverability at significant fractions of C.

Well, we have several instances of it. If they're all by one author.. So? No other ones directly contradict it, they don't discuss the speed of fighters in high-speed combat. So you're making up the contradictions.

Lack of evidence can lend itself to a contradiction. A single instance in contradiction to earlier evidence and with no support from newer evidence is not a very reliable source.

[SirNitram]

And you continue your claim that pre-NJO ships can't accelerate to percents of C. I see, now I get it. You're just ignoring that sublight engines aren't the only option. Did you just forget that a hyperjump involves a rapid acceleration to lightspeed while still in realspace?

(sigh). When I've said speed, I specificaly meant high manueverability at high speed. ANH indicates substansial highspeed and acceleration. This is undeniable. I am saying I have trouble with the high manueverability at significant fractions of C.

Perhaps you better define what you're gonna call 'high maneuverability'. We already know thousands of G's can be generated by pre-Imperial capital ships; that's high maneuverability by most standards, and definately is in the context of STvSW, what this started as.

Well, we have several instances of it. If they're all by one author.. So? No other ones directly contradict it, they don't discuss the speed of fighters in high-speed combat. So you're making up the contradictions.

Lack of evidence can lend itself to a contradiction. A single instance in contradiction to earlier evidence and with no support from newer evidence is not a very reliable source.

Yea, cause we know cutting edge starfighters doing something about four times(With a fifth time implying a main character had done it themselves a few times..) is a single incident.

[Alyeska]

Perhaps you better define what you're gonna call 'high maneuverability'. We already know thousands of G's can be generated by pre-Imperial capital ships; that's high maneuverability by most standards, and definately is in the context of STvSW, what this started as.

Pre-NJO fighters had to decelerate to slower speeds in order to effectively dogfight. Or if they were traveling at higher speeds they were fighting at relativistic speeds. They both might be traveling towards Object A at .2C but within that they were still weaving and manuevering compared to eachother.

NJO indicates fighters can now manuever at high speeds just like they did at low speeds 30 years prior. Now a fighter can be going .5c one direction and with a quick snap turn be going .5C another direction. Not only is this a gross contradiction (provided no upgrades were had), human reaction times litteraly would not allow for combat to occur at those speeds and manuevering.

Yea, cause we know cutting edge starfighters doing something about four times(With a fifth time implying a main character had done it themselves a few times..) is a single incident.

Multiple examples from a single book (for all intents and purposes the Allston duology is a single book split into two) that are not supported in further literature isn't very high standing on my list.

[SirNitram]

Perhaps you better define what you're gonna call 'high maneuverability'. We already know thousands of G's can be generated by pre-Imperial capital ships; that's high maneuverability by most standards, and definately is in the context of STvSW, what this started as.

Pre-NJO fighters had to decelerate to slower speeds in order to effectively dogfight. Or if they were traveling at higher speeds they were fighting at relativistic speeds. They both might be traveling towards Object A at .2C but within that they were still weaving and manuevering compared to eachother.

NJO indicates fighters can now manuever at high speeds just like they did at low speeds 30 years prior. Now a fighter can be going .5c one direction and with a quick snap turn be going .5C another direction. Not only is this a gross contradiction (provided no upgrades were had),
human reaction times litteraly would not allow for combat to occur at those speeds and manuevering.

Again you assume no upgrades! I've already shown that older models keeping deadly alongside new, advanced ones is an implicit indication of upgrades.

Yea, cause we know cutting edge starfighters doing something about four times(With a fifth time implying a main character had done it themselves a few times..) is a single incident.

Multiple examples from a single book (for all intents and purposes the Allston duology is a single book split into two) that are not supported in further literature isn't very high standing on my list.

Alright. The only evidence for rapid re-targetting in Trek is Nemesis. Since it's only one event, we can throw it out.

I don't give a shit if you're going to whine about it being too rarely quantified. Either show contradictions that don't rely on more of your unsupported assumptions, or concede.

[The Kernel]

The GCS never missed those Jen'Hadar fighters once in that particular episode.

Also, BOWB? WHAT! The Jem'Hadar weren't in that episode.....are you thinking of another?

BOBW is a two part TNG episode involving the first borg invasion of the Federation.

Pardon, I meant the episode "Jem'Haddar", not BOBW. I can't actually believe I wrote that.

As for the GCS in "Jem'Haddar", I'm going to borrow the DVD's from my friend and get some screencaps of this and "Paradise Lost" for verification.

Perhaps because the UFP isn't a imperialistic type society? Also, remember we're talking about ST here the writers have no sense of logic. I know that doesn't count in this debate but UFP beam weapons still have far superior accuracy when compared against OPFOR.

You are suggesting drastically more accurate weapons, yet pound for pound match ups with opposing ships? Doesn't wash, and the writers having no logic doesn't fly either since we need an in-universe answer.

There are plenty of examples of UFP beam phasers missing, I just need some time to rewatch a few epsiodes and get some screepcaps of them since this isn't something I've thought about in a while.