Fundy Chief Justice

[Stormbringer]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,66006,00.html

Moore, a conservative Christian, said he turned down a request to place a monument to atheism in the building's rotunda and that he would not allow a similar monument to the Hindu faith, Buddhism, Islam or any other religion.

"That is not the place from where our system of justice was drawn," he testified.

Fucking fundy idiot. When are those goddamned dumbasses going to realize that our Founding Fathers meant that seperation of church and state. How the hell could anyone with a working brain not see that's the monument is establishment (or at least encouragment) or religion?

[Icehawk]

The guys' a typical ignorant fundie moron plain and simple. Now I may not be American but IIRC some of the "founding fathers" of the USA (Jefferson, Lincon, etc) who actually laid down the laws of the land were humanist atheists.

[Stormbringer]

The guys' a typical ignorant fundie moron plain and simple. Now I may not be American but IIRC some of the "founding fathers" of the USA (Jefferson, Lincon, etc) who actually laid down the laws of the land were humanist atheists.

A) Lincoln isn't considered a Found Father.

B) I believe most were most were christians of a more tolerable variety but believed in a more humanist code and in a secular state.

[Frank Hipper]

I like how the only person he told about the installation was James Kennedy, who so kindly provides videos of it for a $19 "donation". Really shows what his true motivations are. Self promotion and dictating morality at the point of the television.

[MattTheSkywalker]

The guys' a typical ignorant fundie moron plain and simple. Now I may not be American but IIRC some of the "founding fathers" of the USA (Jefferson, Lincon, etc) who actually laid down the laws of the land were humanist atheists.

Are you sure about that?

As to Lincoln - Lincoln isn't a "founder" as he wasn't Prez until 1861. Not even born in 1776.

While I agree wholeheartedly with Stormbringer, there are those who argue that "separation of shurch and state" was intended to prevent teh state from interfering with the church , (as in England) not the other way around.

Just another perspective. Not mine, but worth considering.

[Joe]

The guys' a typical ignorant fundie moron plain and simple. Now I may not be American but IIRC some of the "founding fathers" of the USA (Jefferson, Lincon, etc) who actually laid down the laws of the land were humanist atheists.

Deists.

[Stormbringer]

While I agree wholeheartedly with Stormbringer, there are those who argue that "separation of shurch and state" was intended to prevent teh state from interfering with the church , (as in England) not the other way around.

Just another perspective. Not mine, but worth considering.

No it's not. It's just religious nutjob proganda. The Founding Fathers meant an ironclad wall of seperation in both ways. Anyone that tells you otherwise is either lying and sorely misinformed.

[Icehawk]

Are you sure about that?

As to Lincoln - Lincoln isn't a "founder" as he wasn't Prez until 1861. Not even born in 1776.

While I agree wholeheartedly with Stormbringer, there are those who argue that "separation of shurch and state" was intended to prevent teh state from interfering with the church , (as in England) not the other way around.

Just another perspective. Not mine, but worth considering.

As I said im not an american (just a dumb ol lumberjack canuck ) so I don't actually know to much per say about the history of the founding fathers and others except that I read somewhere that Lincon was atheist and that some of the founders were also not religious. Perhaps I am wrong though and was just reading tripe.

[Stormbringer]

Are you sure about that?

As to Lincoln - Lincoln isn't a "founder" as he wasn't Prez until 1861. Not even born in 1776.

While I agree wholeheartedly with Stormbringer, there are those who argue that "separation of shurch and state" was intended to prevent teh state from interfering with the church , (as in England) not the other way around.

Just another perspective. Not mine, but worth considering.

As I said im not an american (just a dumb ol lumberjack canuck ) so I don't actually know to much per say about the history of the founding fathers and others except that I read somewhere that Lincon was atheist and that some of the founders were also not religious. Perhaps I am wrong though and was just reading tripe.

You're not wrong, exactly. They were deists and christians but their morals were more or less humanist.

[Joe]

While I agree wholeheartedly with Stormbringer, there are those who argue that "separation of shurch and state" was intended to prevent teh state from interfering with the church , (as in England) not the other way around.

Just another perspective. Not mine, but worth considering.

No it's not. It's just religious nutjob proganda. The Founding Fathers meant an ironclad wall of seperation in both ways. Anyone that tells you otherwise is either lying and sorely misinformed.

Well, state churches existed before the American Revolution and continued to exist well into the nineteenth century. The Founders would have taken action to end these state churches had they intended for an ironclad seperation as you say.

[Stormbringer]

While I agree wholeheartedly with Stormbringer, there are those who argue that "separation of shurch and state" was intended to prevent teh state from interfering with the church , (as in England) not the other way around.

Just another perspective. Not mine, but worth considering.

No it's not. It's just religious nutjob proganda. The Founding Fathers meant an ironclad wall of seperation in both ways. Anyone that tells you otherwise is either lying and sorely misinformed.

Well, state churches existed before the American Revolution and continued to exist well into the nineteenth century. The Founders would have taken action to end these state churches had they intended for an ironclad seperation as you say.

Two things to understand:

• A) At the time most of society had no problem with state churches. It'd be political suicide to make that kind of open attack on religion.
  
  B) The states had a whole lot more power back then. The founding fathers might not have been able to even if they wanted to.

[Darth Wong]

Read "The Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine. Also see this handy link for my little handout on US state/church separation, including quotes like these:

Think how great a proportion of Mankind consists of weak and ignorant Men and Women, and of inexperienced Youth of both Sexes, who have need of the Motives of Religion to restrain them from Vice, to support their Virtue, and retain them in the Practice of it.

Or:

The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion. It has been the most dishonorable belief against the character of the Divinity, the most destructive to morality and the peace and happiness of man, that ever was propagated since man began to exist.

Or:

My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.

Sorry, but the "Our Founding Fathers were Christians" story is a pure fabrication. The US Constitution is a prime example of a secular humanistic document, and you won't find the word "God" in there once.

[Joe]

You're right (for the most part) about the separation of church and state and the Founders, but it's not a good idea to base your argument on quotes by the Founding Fathers, because the fundies have a whole batch that they can throw right back at you. For example:

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.”

“It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here.”

"The Bible contains more of my little philosophy than all the libraries I have seen; and such parts of it as I cannot reconcile to my little philosophy, I postpone for future investigation."

[Patrick Degan]

You're right (for the most part) about the separation of church and state and the Founders, but it's not a good idea to base your argument on quotes by the Founding Fathers, because the fundies have a whole batch that they can throw right back at you.

One quote which trumps them all:

The United States is not, in any sense, founded upon the Christian religion

—preamble to peace treaty signed between the United States of America and the Barbary States, 1798.

[Darth Wong]

You're right (for the most part) about the separation of church and state and the Founders, but it's not a good idea to base your argument on quotes by the Founding Fathers, because the fundies have a whole batch that they can throw right back at you.

Not one sentiment of which made it into the Constitution, the true measure of their intent. Even Abe Lincoln pretended to be Christian while secretly feeling obvious contempt for the religion.

Or, to put it another way, a man can publicly say a hundred nice things about Christianity in a nation dominated by intolerant Christians and it may mean a hundred different things. But if he ever expresses contempt for its basic belief system in private, we know that this is probably his true feeling, because he has no incentive to say it otherwise.

[Newtonian Fury]

Not enough atheists are going into politics, and that's the main problem! Opponents could also use cheap trick to assassinate an atheist's political career by just mentioning his/her lack of religious faith. Perhaps atheists should use JFK's trick? He was a Catholic, and he got votes by saying "Don't be a bigot" in his campaign. Meaning, "don't vote for someone else simply because I'm a Catholic". But then again, with people like Bush or Ashcroft in charge, things will be very difficult.

[Xenophobe3691]

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility to every form of tyranny over the
mind of man. That is why the clergy oppose me."
-- Thomas Jefferson

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many
ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel,
vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like
god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always
of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
-- Thomas Jefferson

Courtesy of Attrition.org

[Antie]

The US Constitution is a prime example of a secular humanistic document, and you won't find the word "God" in there once.

Yes, and I just "love" how some people point out how Article VII contains the phrase "in the Year of our Lord." They then imply that the phrase "proves" that the Constitution is not a secular humanistic document.

[Stormbringer]

The US Constitution is a prime example of a secular humanistic document, and you won't find the word "God" in there once.

Yes, and I just "love" how some people point out how Article VII contains the phrase "in the Year of our Lord." They then imply that the phrase "proves" that the Constitution is not a secular humanistic document.

LOL! That's the fundies proof? That's absolutely pathetic. That's so damn dumb it's fucking hilarious.

[Antie]

LOL! That's the fundies proof? That's absolutely pathetic. That's so damn dumb it's fucking hilarious.

Well, I wouldn't know whether or not that is a standard, um, "argument," but I have heard people say it before. >_<

[Rhadamanthus]

Meh......went over to SB where they have the same thread.

They have Fundies claiming that the Founding Fathers wanted the Church to have power in the government, and that Seperation of Church and state is supposed to keep the government from interfering with the Church.

And then one guy claiming that Christianity is part of our heritage, and so it is perfectly acceptable for the Judge to put up the monument and exclude any other religion, and anyone who disagrees is just part of a liberal society trying to trample on Western heritage.

[Newtonian Fury]

Nowadays, a lot of people associate Islam with terrorism, fanaticism, and violence. Why? In many Middle Eastern countries, the Church have strong control over the state. In their fundamentalist ideals, they promote violence against all "infidels". Without a separation between church and state, mainstream Islam has become more and more conservative, a cruel thing to all liberal and moderate values. Some Christians might point out that Christianity doesn't tell people to suicide bomb civilians. But they would be wise see that in the countries with a Christian majority, the Church and state has a wide berth. Without this distance, Christianity would degenerate into what Islam is right now. One would only need to read the history of the Dark Ages to know that a Church-controlled Europe was a third-world continent in its own right.

[HemlockGrey]

The Ten Commandments are the morale foundation of America's law? Well, they have some pretty basic stuff in there, like no killing, no stealing, etc. but, you know, hasn't he ever heard of Greece, Byzantium, or Rome?