Space mines in ST

[paladin]

It seems very stupid to me that every time ST has used mines that they are always contact mines. In B5, the Centauri had blockade mines which were armed with some kind of guns.

It would make sense to me for mines in ST to either shoot a beam weapon or photon torpedo at a target. In the process, the mine could be destroyed to prevent it from falling into enemy hands.

Does this seem good to anyone else or am I just off base here?

[Enlightenment]

Space based minefields in free or near-free FTL universes are so far into scifi brainbug territory that they really can't be assessed rationally.

Guns would just make useless mines into even more expensive but equally useless mines,

[Isolder74]

Space based minefields in free or near-free FTL universes are so far into scifi brainbug territory that they really can't be assessed rationally.

Guns would just make useless mines into even more expensive but equally useless mines,

Not nessisarily, if mines are deployed in places like major trade routes and know fleet pathways you can still cause quite a bit of damage. now laying massive minefields in open space is another matter entirely but in "safe" routes in say a asteroid field is a differnt matter

[Sea Skimmer]

It seems very stupid to me that every time ST has used mines that they are always contact mines. In B5, the Centauri had blockade mines which were armed with some kind of guns.

It would make sense to me for mines in ST to either shoot a beam weapon or photon torpedo at a target. In the process, the mine could be destroyed to prevent it from falling into enemy hands.

Does this seem good to anyone else or am I just off base here?

Well given that we already have such weapons in the real world in the form of the MK60 CAPTOR which fires an Mk46 torpedo at passing submarines..


You could never fill space with sufficient drifting contact mines to make a field worthwhile. At the minimal you need an engine, which some modern mines also have. However in space such would be far to easy to destroy, you could make gaps simply by destroying or decoying all mines within a given area until you have a breach.

What I see a need for is a mine, which either has a gun of some sort, or a mine, which launches multiple missiles against a target. Anything else is going to be too easy to clear.

[Failed Glory]

I have to agree, given the volume of space, how effective would stationary mines actually be?

And then you have mines with engines? How easy would that be to detect?

[Slartibartfast]

How about the minefield in Galaxy Quest? they had some kind of "magnetic" thingy that made them track ships, and the field itself was huge (looked like a cloud, nebula or asteroid field)

[Enlightenment]

Not nessisarily, if mines are deployed in places like major trade routes and know fleet pathways you can still cause quite a bit of damage. now laying massive minefields in open space is another matter entirely but in "safe" routes in say a asteroid field is a differnt matter

In no-FTL or free/near-free-FTL universes there are no such things as major trade routes or known fleet pathways. Space is not like a highway network or the oceans: there are no chokepoints. Unless a minefield completely surrounds a target (fat chance doing this with anything larger than a fair-sized asteroid) it can be bypassed with mininal effort.

Real-life asteroid belts are over 99.999...% empty space. They don't constitute chokepoints in any sense of the word.

[EmperorMing]

Minefields in space would be more of a defensive setup; ie around a stationary target like a base in free space, and not free fall.

[Sam Or I]

In the B5 universe (not talking trek), mine out side a jumpgate, this would be very pratical.

[Enlightenment]

In the B5 universe (not talking trek), mine out side a jumpgate, this would be very pratical.

Except if you're trying to keep out ships with their own jump engines, such as for instance virtually all warships...

[EmperorMing]

Area denial around a given installation/object.

From what I understand, placing mines around a jumpgate will reduce *some* of the traffic for little cost. All those non-jump capable freighters comes to mind.

[Darth Wong]

Area denial around a given installation/object.

From what I understand, placing mines around a jumpgate will reduce *some* of the traffic for little cost. All those non-jump capable freighters comes to mind.

Since nobody sends freighters in as the first wave of an attack, I don't see how this will matter. Warships will open their own jump gates, and they would clear any minefields around a static jumpgate before freighters come in.

[Stormbringer]

Against a choke point with a relatively small volume like the Bajoran wormhole or Starfire warp points, contact mines would work. You'd still need a whole lot make the effective but it could be done.

[Patrick Degan]

It seems the best type of space mine would be an X-ray laser.

[Stormbringer]

It seems the best type of space mine would be an X-ray laser.

Honor-verse standard! They use an ultra-heavy bomb pumped warhead to power a heavy x-ray laser. Tough to lock up and hard to kill, they can rip up ships well.

But anyway, any mine with some sort of ranged attack would be better than a contact mine in space. There's simply to much volume even if you know where the enemy hads to come for contact mines to be very effective.

[Darth Wong]

By the time you can make a space mine useful (increase its coverage by giving it a propulsion system, give it weapons, etc), what you've got is not a mine; it is a drone ship.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Skimmer described a CAPTOR mine back in page 1. That sounds like a pretty good idea. Just fire a mine out, and let it stay there until it detects some poor ship, then have it light the engines and fly headlong into it. A wepon like this could be used as a "savant" missile - you dumbfire it past the enemy, he dodges, then the missile spins around and tags him in the ass. I mean, who ever expects a missed missile to kill you?

But Wong is right - when you up-armor mines to prevent losses, give it weapons and propulsion, what you have is a very expendable drone ship. In that case, you might as well create a ship like the Defender from Homeworld - slow, but with very quick tracking and turn speed and very nasty firepower.

The primary problem with mines is that they are stationary and depend largely on luck for their victims to stumble onto them. It's like a Claymore - you can site in on the trees and kill a 250m fan in front of it, but if you don't see him, or he simply doesn't walk into the path of the blast, it is worse than useless.

[Sea Skimmer]

By the time you can make a space mine useful (increase its coverage by giving it a propulsion system, give it weapons, etc), what you've got is not a mine; it is a drone ship.

That's why I like the idea of allowing it shoot several small missiles with a long refire cycle to limit the effectives of decoys, or arm it with a gun. It's not a mine, it's basically a very small battle station, which would be hard to detect a significant ranges

[Sam Or I]

[quote="Darth Wong"][quote="EmperorMing"]Area denial around a given installation/object.

From what I understand, placing mines around a jumpgate will reduce *some* of the traffic for little cost. All those non-jump capable freighters comes to mind.[/quote]
Since nobody sends freighters in as the first wave of an attack, I don't see how this will matter. Warships will open their own jump gates, and they would clear any minefields around a static jumpgate before freighters come in.[/quote]

Who says mines are just used for warships, they can be used to disrupt commerce. Yes any military escort can help them avoid it, but that costs $$$.

[Failed Glory]

Mines are perfectly useless in space. The volume required to protect your own space, the design requirements for a credible hit, and logistics of actually laying the mines in enemy territory make them all but unfeasible.

The only credible use of mines was in DS9 when there was a real chokepoint in traffic at the wormhole.

However, if you could use mines as simply a psych weapon, you might get away with it. As the British did in the Falklands with nuclear attack subs, just get one mine to explode or even the rumours of mines on a certain planet's orbit and that forces your enemy to sweep the entire region. And that can be time and vessel consuming.

[Dooey Jo]

Have you guys ever played TIE fighter? The mines there aren't exactly useless. Those mines which fire at you when you are close are a real pain in the ass, the ion-mines are the worst. I hate them. And those mines which fire a missile when you shoot at them are not so funny either.

So I think mines in space could be pretty effective against most types of ships.

[Failed Glory]

But those aren't mines, they are miniature weapons platforms.

A whole different argument there. A cubic foot of material holds a reactor, fire controls, laser or ion, and stabilizing engines, as well as sheilds? Why are starfighters so big again?

Besides, where are the Lucasarts games on that crazy canon list anyways?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Stories count as canon.

The gameplay does not.

[Ironwolf]

Hi guys, newbee here but I like a good discussion so here I am.

Ok, so the discussion is on mines. Lets see,

Emperium Mines: Used by Admiral Trigit in X-Wing Wraith Squadron by calculating jump points from a know target area to surrounding areas, passed information on distance, location, habitation, and easy of hyperspace calculations for a quick jump out of a hot zone (which he created by arriving with ISD Implacable)

Point there is mines can be used to some effect if a few things are considered.

1) What do you plan to accomplish?

In this case it was disable and destroy later. The mines detected hyperspace anomalies, sent out a gravity well "spike" (my words) to pull what ever was detected out of hyperspace and blast it with an ion/EMP pulse to kill most if not all electrical systems.

2) What area of effect?

Are you planning to capture or destroy a few sub fight size ships or a fleet. I believe a minefield would be best used for smaller vessels and leave larger fleets to be dealt with by other fleets.

3) Cost effectiveness

How expensive are the mines. The more complex they are, the more they cost. Also a factor is how they will be used. If you have an exact course, entry, exit point for a ship you want to capture/destroy, you can use a less amount of material for explosives, power supply for area effect. Again the broader that becomes, the more it will cost.

I'm sure there are more factors but I think that’s about the basics I can come up with. That and I don't want to overdue my first post. So with that, I will just leave you with:

HI EVERBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mr Bean]

Why are starfighters so big again?

Hold the pilot of course