UK man gets 8 years for killing home invader? WTF?

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2004-03-24 03:45pm

A 25-year-old man is beginning an eight year sentence after he was found guilty of the manslaughter of a 38-year-old man who had tried to rob him.

Manchester Crown Court heard how Mr Swindells, from Rockley Gardens, Salford, went to Lindsay's flat at 2145 GMT on 27 February 2003 with the intention of robbing him.

Robbery and firearms offences

When Lindsay opened the door, to be confronted by him and three accomplices who were armed with a gun, he fetched a Samurai sword and stabbed Mr Swindells four times

If this happened to me, I probably would have shot all four of them.
And under the circumstances described, you know what would have happened to me?

I would have been initially questioned by the police and then released with no charges, as using lethal force to defend yourself in your own home is not yet a crime in most of the US despite the bleeding hearts' attempts to make it so.

Det Chief Insp Sam Haworth said: "Four men including the victims had set out purposefully to rob Carl Lindsay and this intent ultimately led to Stephen Swindell's death.

"I believe the sentences passed today reflect the severity of the circumstances."

Yeah, it's much more criminal to use lethal force to defend yourself in your home in the UK than it is to conduct an armed home invasion, as the 3 surviving robbers got 14 years between the 3 of them compared to the 8 years of the only real victim in the case.

So we have a case that differs from the Tony Martin case in that the 'victim' as armed and attempting to commit a home invasion, yet the homeowner is still sentenced to jail.

From Winston Churchill and "we will never surrender" to this?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-03-24 04:03pm

What the fuck... I remember being told that Brittish citizens are only allowed to defend themselves equaly to how the intruder is threatening them. This means if the intruder has a knife and you have a sword, you can't use it. But if the intruder has a gun and you have a sword, the intruder is fucked.

That in itself is fucked up. This is even worse. What the fuck was he supposed to do? Just sit there and let them rob him and risk getting killed? The judge and jury should be fucking ashamed of themselves. I can see why in a recent BBC poll the largest majority of people wanted a UK law that allows defense of self using lethal force and a fire arm. The people are getting fed up with the system punishing the innocent people.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2004-03-24 04:49pm

The UK is not a fan of selfdefence to say the least. To take a quote from the linked article:

In a society that has a hardcore cross section of criminals that are armed with whatever they wish to arm themselves with, when the Government states that the honest people cannot carry ANY weapon for Self-defense purposes, they are Pro-Criminal. They are denying you a large degree of safety. They are actively becoming the Protector of the criminal element, they are protecting the criminals from YOU.

They are denying you one of the most basic, common-law human rights you have as not only a Human Being residing on Earth, but as a British Subject. They are denying you the Right to Self-defense. They are placing you in the precarious position of either allowing yourself to be a victim of the criminals that they either cannot control or refuse to control. Or, if you choose to not heed their Draconian Proclamations, they will victimize you by making you a criminal as well and place you in prison with the criminals!

They are directly telling you, “Suffer the criminal’s wrath, no matter what it may be, or you will suffer our wrath.”

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2004-03-24 04:51pm

Well, last time i talked with a cop, he said that we're allowed to use "reasonable force". Of course, those are weasel words that have no real meaning and other laws which stand for the rights of the robbers construe stuff like this as excessive and unreasonable.

IIRC your dog gets auto-destroyed if it hurts a burglar in any serious way too.

Pisses me off greatly. The law should be changed imo.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2004-03-24 04:51pm

Another victory for the proponents of sensible handgun control!

Seriously though, how the hell is this guy being charged with manslaughter when he kills a guy with a sword who is holding a fricken gun on him?!

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2004-03-24 04:55pm

Nathan F wrote:Seriously though, how the hell is this guy being charged with manslaughter when he kills a guy with a sword who is holding a fricken gun on him?!

Because he didn't let the guy with the gun shoot him first. You think that sounds like a sick joke but I'm dead serious.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2004-03-24 04:57pm

aerius wrote:
Nathan F wrote:Seriously though, how the hell is this guy being charged with manslaughter when he kills a guy with a sword who is holding a fricken gun on him?!
Because he didn't let the guy with the gun shoot him first. You think that sounds like a sick joke but I'm dead serious.

Well, this is just another case to go in the file of arguments against handgun confiscation and against draconian criminal defense laws.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-03-24 05:23pm

the article is very short. perhaps there are circumstances which justify sentancing him of manslaughter.
if not, this judge needs some serious butraping with this samurai sword mentioned.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2004-03-24 05:45pm

Did a bit more research at SDF and came up with this news link with further info.

http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/lanca ... NEWS8.html

SDF discussion thread on the incident.

Yeah, there's definitely more to this story...

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-24 05:56pm

You aren't allowed to pursue the criminal after they have been driven off, nor is it a good idea to shoot/stab them in the back. Truthfully I don't care that some drug dealer is going to be in prison for 8 years, seems like a good place to put them if you ask me.

The Third Man · Post by **The Third Man** » 2004-03-24 06:18pm

I had the misfortune to be in that neighbourhood for most of today. If Rockley Gardens is where I think it is then it's not exactly the most salubrious of locations. Sounds to me like this is not a case of home invasion so much as a case of an episode in one of the many on-going feuds amongst the locals which happened to take place at someones home. Found another report here

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2004-03-24 06:32pm

Alright,
Question 1. Why were there 4 guys with guns, this smacks of something other than a simple burglary?
Question 2. How the fuck do you "fetch" a sword after opening the door to three guys with guns?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-03-24 06:36pm

it could be these were other dealers he'd pissed off who were looking to get back at him or something. maybe he didn't pay up on time and they came to collect their share.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2004-03-24 06:48pm

let me see if i've got it right... this guy was a drug dealer, who pissed off some other dealers, and when they came to his place with a gun, he got a sword and stabbed one of 'em in self-defense??? and now they're puttin' him away for stabbin' the other guy, not for dealing? WTF????

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-03-24 07:02pm

Elheru Aran wrote:let me see if i've got it right... this guy was a drug dealer, who pissed off some other dealers, and when they came to his place with a gun, he got a sword and stabbed one of 'em in self-defense??? and now they're puttin' him away for stabbin' the other guy, not for dealing? WTF????

they´re putting him in prison for running after the guys while they where fleeing and stabing one of them repededly in the back. that´s considered more than a reasonable amount of force in the UK.

The Albino Raven · Post by **The Albino Raven** » 2004-03-24 07:14pm

salm wrote:they´re putting him in prison for running after the guys while they where fleeing and stabing one of them repededly in the back. that´s considered more than a reasonable amount of force in the UK.

I don't know if other states have a "make my day" law, but in Colorado, a person can attack and kill those who come onto their property with intent to injure or harm id est burglary. I have been unable to find anything in the law about fleeing individuals. First, do any other members know of laws like this in their states, and if so, is there anything in these laws similar to the reasonable force clause of this UK statute.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-03-24 07:22pm

I'm sure you'd get charged for manslaughter here in Germany, too.
Self-defense is one thing, but attacking and killing a fleeing man certainly isn't...

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2004-03-24 07:58pm

His problem is he didn't kill him. Then it's your word against nobody's.
You then stab and mutilate the body. (for forensics, so they can't tell the entry from exit wounds.)
You then need to thrash around a bit, obscuring the footprints, and blood trail.
Or you could just consider it a victory when the SURVIVING attacker flees in terror.
But, then again, he could come back later for revenge.
Finish him off, it is safer. Not just for you, but how many others?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-03-24 08:28pm

Shit, happened in Bolton too, not more than an hour from me and it's a shithole as it is without this.

Samurai swords (katanas) seem to be a classy weapon recently. They've had loads of incidents with them over the past few years, one memorable one was in Liverpool (again in Lancashire county) where a guy was chased after leaving a restaurant in the city at night and had his hand severed by a sword but later had it resown on. All because two guys on a table next to him thought he was looking at them funny.

Nutcases.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-03-24 08:32pm

Ah crap, meant Salford, not Bolton. Went to the university there once for a biology convention. First words they said to us before leaving the coach was stick together because they'd had more homicides than normal that year for students.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-03-24 08:37pm

Nathan F and Glocksman may wish to get their knees examined. They jerked pretty hard at absolutely nothing, after all.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-03-24 08:37pm

No sympathy for him.

The laws on self defence may need to be tweaked somewhat, but the law on shooting/stabbing someone in the back when they run isn't something that needs to be changed.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2004-03-24 08:37pm

aerius wrote:Did a bit more research at SDF and came up with this news link with further info.

http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/lanca ... NEWS8.html

SDF discussion thread on the incident.

Yeah, there's definitely more to this story...

THAT'S MY HOME TOWN!

Sounds like people on all sides were scum.

Shit, happened in Bolton too, not more than an hour from me and it's a shithole as it is without this.

This is true, worst rates for teenage pregnancy nationwide, apparently. It's still cool because it's where i come from. (It probably is more than an hour from you, actually)

As for lancashire katana attacks, yeah, we've had a few, including a guy getting shot by the police for it, and another guy sticking it through windscreens of peoples' cars.

Yeah, I remember the scouse one too.

Ah crap, meant Salford, not Bolton. Went to the university there once for a biology convention. First words they said to us before leaving the coach was stick together because they'd had more homicides than normal that year for students.

Salford's manchester, not Lancashire, as is Bolton, just so you know.

Yes, always drive with your doors locked in Salford.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-03-24 08:42pm

Bah, that city is growing like a tumour. Why not let Manchester claim all of Lancashire?

In anycase, a shit place to live, Salford. Uni was craptastic and telling students to be wary of the highest student mortality rate in the nation isn't something helping me choose that place. I hear the cops do random checks there quite a bit, got to wonder what the local gangsters do if they're half as bad as I hear.

But the knee jerking here was bad. It wasn't as cut and dry as the Beeb first showed and it was one piece of scum going after another. They can fire at will for all I care.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-24 08:43pm

You Northerners sure are classy aren't you?