Evangelion

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2002-10-17 02:43am

Seele wrote:
I think that Asuka rejected TI. Afterall, why should anyone, let alone someone as whipped as Shinji, be permitted to make a decision of this magnitude? I like to think everyone got to make their own decision, and in the end, Shinji turned out to be braver than he thought.
I think that Shinji did reject Instmentality as well as Asuka. I also believe that other people may be able to make up their own minds if they want to come back but Shinji and Asuka may have been the 1st ones to do so since they were in Eva's when 3rd Impact happened.

I always thought Asuka didn't live to see Third Impact . . .

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2002-10-17 04:09am

#1 There is ample evidence that the End of Evangelion movies were part of the Director throwing a fit over the rejection of the TV ending. Shinji was supposed to be a projection of Director Anno's person, and the last two episodesof the TV series (they were like that because of budget problems) were extremely personal for him. When his fans decided they wanted Giant Robots, he gave them what was the original script, only changed around a bit to slap in the Fan's face.

The biggest piece of evidence was the change in tone. In the TV series, Shinji was never a third as whiney as he was in the movie. The overall ending to the TV series ended on an upbeat note, while in End of Evangelion, the most cheerful moment was when everyone died. While budget problems and censors can justify a change in the actual content, only a change in the director's funtimental beleifs can bring about such a drastic change in tone.

#2 Shinji is not Superman, nor is he some sort of warrior who Proudly Declares His Purpose With His Hair Blowing In The Wind. He is partially a representation of the Everyman, the normal person who is NOT a hero. At no point was he supposed to be some sort of hero. Honestly, I doubt that any one of the people here would have, at age 14, risked one's life doing somrthing you hated for a person you hated and be cheerful about it. The fact that he does it at all is better than what most people can say.

#3 If you are watching it for Giant Robots, watch Vandread instead. Evangelion is, and will forever be, about the characters. In that context, the TV ending being about the characters instead of the robots makes perfect sense.

#4
TV: Shinji decides that he will try to live with everyone else.
Movie: Shinji says "Living with everyone sucks." breaking instrumtality and brining about more negative imagry. He also strangles the person he likes.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-10-17 04:17am

Nice to see you're not listening to official evidence. Your personal opinion on Anno's vision means nothing.

Anno's original script for the last two episodes were rejected due to their content. He was reading a lot about psychology at the time, so he decided to do an introspective ending, one where the Instrumentality Project succeeds, because Shinji falls for the false promise that everything is better when Humanity is combined.

EOE allowed Anno to complete Eva how he wanted to. The Instrumentality Project fails because Shinji recognizes it for the empty promise it is. The fact that Asuka and Shinji might be the only two people left in the world (something I personally don't think, but not many people would be coming back to life), just means that most people believed in the hollow lie.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-10-17 04:19am

Go here.

http://www.evaotaku.com/

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2002-10-17 04:22am

"Official Evidence"? I'm pretty sure that the official reason for the TV ending was budget reasons (see the two long still scenes in the previous episodes). I'm also sure that the official statement from Anno was that both the TV and movie endings are compatable with each other. However, since I am essencially second guessing their statements, they really don't mean a lot to me.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-10-17 04:29am

After Anno's script was rejected, the crew had to put something together pretty quickly to air in time (trivia: most of the Eva episode scripts were written as the show went along). They were also having budgetary problems.

That's why Anno decided to do the Introspective Ending, where HIP was a success. Everyone clapping at the end? That's the false reality that Shinji was presented with. Several of those people are dead, and everything seems really surreal.

Sorry if I'm coming of kinda jerk-ish, but I'm tired and as I said before, I can get really defensive for things that I hold dear to me.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2002-10-17 11:01am

The TV Ending occurs within the Human Instrumentality. That's why it has a surreal, unrealistic feeling, it's just Shinji becoming part of the Instrumentality rather than maintaining his own identity. By contrast, the ending of EoE is brutally realistic, since it has Shinji returning to the real world where he can again be hurt by the AT fields of others.

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2002-10-17 11:54am

One possibility for Shinji's acceptance of Instrumentality in the TV ending (this is conjecture on my part), as opposed to rejecting it as in the original script, was that they couldn't show him rejecting it without showing the real-world events of Third Impact following it. And since the original script was rejected, the would either have to rewrite Third Impact (unlikely, EoE depicts, more or less, the only thing Third Impact could have been; A giant Lillith converting all souls into one) or not show any of its corresponding real-world events. So, they just ended it with Shinji accepting the false reality presented within Instrumentality.

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2002-10-17 12:02pm

Oh, and the 5th Angel's (Ramiel, IIRC) AT field was pierced with a 1.8TW beam, not 180GW, as someone mentioned earlier.

AT fields aren't a plot contrivance, since they fit within the defined setting (that's the whole point of writing sci-fi, isn't it?). That would be like saying that Return of the Jedi was contrived for using fighters to blow up the DSII, instead of using a Culture weapon.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2002-10-17 05:28pm

Darth Utsanomiko wrote:Oh, and the 5th Angel's (Ramiel, IIRC) AT field was pierced with a 1.8TW beam, not 180GW, as someone mentioned earlier.

AT fields aren't a plot contrivance, since they fit within the defined setting (that's the whole point of writing sci-fi, isn't it?). That would be like saying that Return of the Jedi was contrived for using fighters to blow up the DSII, instead of using a Culture weapon. :roll:

So it would take a 428 ton bomb to blow it up, rather than 42.8 ton bomb. We still have tactical nuke > Angel. Though I wonder what happened to all the planet's nuclear munitions. The best they could come up with are N2 mines, which are said to be strictly conventional in nature.

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2002-10-17 05:45pm

The type of weapon might be a factor in significantly piercing the AT field. a focused 1.8TW beam might have been more effective in reaching the Angel's core than a .5Kt bomb (like how the 3rd and 7th Angels received only minor damage from N2 mines. Some energy might 'spill over' through the AT field, but not enough to effect it permanently). Then again, due to the nature of the 5th Angel, it might have been difficult to bomb it out of its range, regardless of effectiveness. And it's the only actual quantitative measurement of energy in the series, IIRC, os it could be a bad calc on the writer's part.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-10-17 05:57pm

Since the Angels are all different can you accurately gauge how a certain weapon that worked decently on one Angel would affect another?

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-10-17 06:56pm

Darth Utsanomiko wrote:The type of weapon might be a factor in significantly piercing the AT field. a focused 1.8TW beam might have been more effective in reaching the Angel's core than a .5Kt bomb (like how the 3rd and 7th Angels received only minor damage from N2 mines. Some energy might 'spill over' through the AT field, but not enough to effect it permanently). Then again, due to the nature of the 5th Angel, it might have been difficult to bomb it out of its range, regardless of effectiveness. And it's the only actual quantitative measurement of energy in the series, IIRC, os it could be a bad calc on the writer's part.

It wasn't a 1.8 terawatt beam it was a 180 gigawatt beam.. and the beam and angel didn't even interact for a full second.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2002-10-17 07:09pm

Darth Utsanomiko wrote:One possibility for Shinji's acceptance of Instrumentality in the TV ending (this is conjecture on my part), as opposed to rejecting it as in the original script, was that they couldn't show him rejecting it without showing the real-world events of Third Impact following it. And since the original script was rejected, the would either have to rewrite Third Impact (unlikely, EoE depicts, more or less, the only thing Third Impact could have been; A giant Lillith converting all souls into one) or not show any of its corresponding real-world events. So, they just ended it with Shinji accepting the false reality presented within Instrumentality.

I don't think Shinji had much of a choice in the TV ending. The Instrumentality was going to happen regardless of his feelings.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2002-10-18 01:33am

Darth Utsanomiko wrote:The type of weapon might be a factor in significantly piercing the AT field. a focused 1.8TW beam might have been more effective in reaching the Angel's core than a .5Kt bomb (like how the 3rd and 7th Angels received only minor damage from N2 mines. Some energy might 'spill over' through the AT field, but not enough to effect it permanently). Then again, due to the nature of the 5th Angel, it might have been difficult to bomb it out of its range, regardless of effectiveness. And it's the only actual quantitative measurement of energy in the series, IIRC, os it could be a bad calc on the writer's part.

Oh yeah . . . actually it'd probably have to be at least a kiloton. Half the energy would go into blowing up everything behind the bomb. Probably 1.5 to 2 kT since the Angel would absorb maybe a quarter of the energy.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-10-18 01:59am

good series, messed up characters, interesting Angel concepts, I like the series a lot, but, as with most series I like, there is at least one character who really gets on my nerves. In Evangelion, this is Shinji Ikari, so whenever I think of Evangelion, he tends to attract all of the negative attitude I am carrying around.

Rathark · Post by **Rathark** » 2002-10-18 10:02am

Shadowhawk wrote:
The movies ended with Shinji realizing that rejection, pain, humiliation, and all the general unpleasantness of life is what makes us human. He rejects insturmentality because it's a cop-out and completely counter to what being human means. Bliss without pain isn't bliss at all.

Please remember these words when someone steals your parking spot.
Please remember these words when they serve you the wrong meal at a restaurant.
Please remember these words when you lose a loved one.

And now that you mention it, what's so good about staying human if you're going to complain about the same things tommorow morning? Isn't progress, improvement and an embrace of the unknown precisely what makes us human?

Larz · Post by **Larz** » 2002-10-18 01:41pm

Was anyone else surprised to find out that Misato Katsuragi was a pedaphile? I was watching "Neon Genesis Evangelion: End of Evangelion" when this thought occured to me. It just seems like a major character change right at the end that comes without reason. Just an errant thought.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-10-18 01:51pm

I don't think she was.

Personally, I think she was trying to get Shinji to snap out of it, and go to the Eva 01. Maybe also to boost his self-worth a bit.

Larz · Post by **Larz** » 2002-10-18 02:06pm

Perhaps... she did seem to know that her death was at hand... and sex tends to be near the top of any 14 year olds list. But I think there may have been a little more to it than that. He always seemed to be a bit more than just a project to her, yet never seemed to be like her child. Anyway, they all were a bit off in their thoughts. I don't know why I'm pondering on this... I think I'm going to go watch some Trigun to clear my mind... wonderfully whaky Vash

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-10-18 02:15pm

It's best not to jump to conclusions and automatically assume something, without looking at the whole picture.

And with that, I'm gone. See you all on Sunday evening/Monday morning.

Larz · Post by **Larz** » 2002-10-18 02:57pm

I know that... but one should never disregard any possibility... oh, and interesting avatar switch.

lgot · Post by **lgot** » 2002-10-18 11:40pm

Was anyone else surprised to find out that Misato Katsuragi was a pedaphile? I was watching "Neon Genesis Evangelion: End of Evangelion" when this thought occured to me. It just seems like a major character change right at the end that comes without reason. Just an errant thought.

I am surprised now ^^
She is not a pedophile, Her kiss to shinji is more something she wanted to do for him than something she wanted for her own desires (plus,its pretty clear she is atracted to Kaji, not a boy).
Misato was draw to be the perfect cool hot anime girl for Eva. there is a lop, as there is in the series for every anime steryotipe they used, but only to make her actually shows insecurity and need to older attention to her work. She is overprotective, but only because she feels a great responsability for her job, and making Shinji go ahead was one of those. There is nothing to do with pedophile...

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2002-10-19 02:19am

lgot wrote:
Was anyone else surprised to find out that Misato Katsuragi was a pedaphile? I was watching "Neon Genesis Evangelion: End of Evangelion" when this thought occured to me. It just seems like a major character change right at the end that comes without reason. Just an errant thought.
I am surprised now ^^
She is not a pedophile, Her kiss to shinji is more something she wanted to do for him than something she wanted for her own desires (plus,its pretty clear she is atracted to Kaji, not a boy).
Misato was draw to be the perfect cool hot anime girl for Eva. there is a lop, as there is in the series for every anime steryotipe they used, but only to make her actually shows insecurity and need to older attention to her work. She is overprotective, but only because she feels a great responsability for her job, and making Shinji go ahead was one of those. There is nothing to do with pedophile...

And besides, she knew she was going to be very dead very shortly.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-10-19 03:19am

Besides, wasn't Shinji above the age of consent in Japan anyway?