How did you enter ST vs SW debate?
Moderator: Vympel
How did you enter ST vs SW debate?
I'm kinda curious. How did anyone of you got attracted to SW/ST and then the vs debates in general?
Here's my story.
My attraction to SW began back in 1996. The only SW movie I recall consciously seeing, was ROTJ, and it was of extremely bad quality, with static and so forth on free-air TV. However, in that year, I started secondary school( 4 year school, ending in GCE "O" Levels). There, I encountered the game SW CCG. Now, I had an extremely vague idea of what SW already was then, and as I started playing the game, well, the game got me beyond the movie and into the EU specifics I guess. Then, by pure chance, I borrowed the novel Heir to the Empire by Timothy Zahn, which absolutely drew me into SW bigtime. I then hooked up with a guy who termed himself Darth Vader, or Darth Star Wars Freak, found a couple of SW fans who also played the card game and then my journey to the Dark Side was complete.
My... initial distaste for the EU inaccuracy was also born during this period, when the X-wing games were begining to be popular. Blue proton torps, blue ion cannon, vs red proton torps and ion cannon. Nuff said.
The stages for the vs debate was set a year later in 1997, when the battletech CCG was released. I was already a btech fan then(indeed, the same btech players were the same people who sucked me into SW CCG in the first place) and as such, was recognised as an authority on btech along with this other.... trekkie. Now, my entire class somehow got sucked into this trading card game, and we somewhat spread it along the entire school, although our class remained the nexus for the game. The trekkie and me soon began to go loggerheads at each other, as I resented his "house rules" interpretation for btech, his blatent incompetence and ignorance of the universe while attempting to pass himself off as a superior authority on me. Then one day, he cast a stone into the pond. One that would lead me to here.
"Star wars, do you know that Star Wars is satanic?"
Now, we were in a christian school, and saying this was akins to saying someone was gay. My friend and I, (the one who would say "I hate to be in your platoon" in my quote) then rebutted him angrily, and stated that if SW was satanic for the reasons he stated, then ST was equally, if not more so, as ST attempted to cover it up.
We lost that argument.
I enjoyed a few eps of TNG then, which was on its reruns on midnight. Even more strangely, somehow or another, I had caught a few episodes of TOS in my youth and was drawn to that series. In an attempt to make up for this lost ground, I.... re-immersed myself back into both genres.
Forward 2 years.
A btech RPG/Story Debate I was in at Utopia, finally made its decisions to shift away from the Utopia forums, which was limited to 100 posts per thread. And so, Slacker and Big Steve led me to this strange place, called spacebattles. Inside the story debate, our war to defend earth raged on, until it ultimately began to taper off towards the end, sometime after I ordered the Arrow IV missile strike on a nuclear powerplant. Precentor Oshay, a later SW debator cleaned up the mess I left and as the story headed towards its ineveitable end, I looked over the various others forums present there. And found the vs debates column. A place where I could use the knowledge I learnt. My first debate was with E1701 and Third of Five, and got off to a wrong start, and I had to apologise immediately after, as I had tagged on an additional zero to the height of the stratosphere. And so it began.
In a sense, it could be said that battletech led me to star wars.
Here's my story.
My attraction to SW began back in 1996. The only SW movie I recall consciously seeing, was ROTJ, and it was of extremely bad quality, with static and so forth on free-air TV. However, in that year, I started secondary school( 4 year school, ending in GCE "O" Levels). There, I encountered the game SW CCG. Now, I had an extremely vague idea of what SW already was then, and as I started playing the game, well, the game got me beyond the movie and into the EU specifics I guess. Then, by pure chance, I borrowed the novel Heir to the Empire by Timothy Zahn, which absolutely drew me into SW bigtime. I then hooked up with a guy who termed himself Darth Vader, or Darth Star Wars Freak, found a couple of SW fans who also played the card game and then my journey to the Dark Side was complete.
My... initial distaste for the EU inaccuracy was also born during this period, when the X-wing games were begining to be popular. Blue proton torps, blue ion cannon, vs red proton torps and ion cannon. Nuff said.
The stages for the vs debate was set a year later in 1997, when the battletech CCG was released. I was already a btech fan then(indeed, the same btech players were the same people who sucked me into SW CCG in the first place) and as such, was recognised as an authority on btech along with this other.... trekkie. Now, my entire class somehow got sucked into this trading card game, and we somewhat spread it along the entire school, although our class remained the nexus for the game. The trekkie and me soon began to go loggerheads at each other, as I resented his "house rules" interpretation for btech, his blatent incompetence and ignorance of the universe while attempting to pass himself off as a superior authority on me. Then one day, he cast a stone into the pond. One that would lead me to here.
"Star wars, do you know that Star Wars is satanic?"
Now, we were in a christian school, and saying this was akins to saying someone was gay. My friend and I, (the one who would say "I hate to be in your platoon" in my quote) then rebutted him angrily, and stated that if SW was satanic for the reasons he stated, then ST was equally, if not more so, as ST attempted to cover it up.
We lost that argument.
I enjoyed a few eps of TNG then, which was on its reruns on midnight. Even more strangely, somehow or another, I had caught a few episodes of TOS in my youth and was drawn to that series. In an attempt to make up for this lost ground, I.... re-immersed myself back into both genres.
Forward 2 years.
A btech RPG/Story Debate I was in at Utopia, finally made its decisions to shift away from the Utopia forums, which was limited to 100 posts per thread. And so, Slacker and Big Steve led me to this strange place, called spacebattles. Inside the story debate, our war to defend earth raged on, until it ultimately began to taper off towards the end, sometime after I ordered the Arrow IV missile strike on a nuclear powerplant. Precentor Oshay, a later SW debator cleaned up the mess I left and as the story headed towards its ineveitable end, I looked over the various others forums present there. And found the vs debates column. A place where I could use the knowledge I learnt. My first debate was with E1701 and Third of Five, and got off to a wrong start, and I had to apologise immediately after, as I had tagged on an additional zero to the height of the stratosphere. And so it began.
In a sense, it could be said that battletech led me to star wars.
Let him land on any Lyran world to taste firsthand the wrath of peace loving people thwarted by the myopic greed of a few miserly old farts- Katrina Steiner
A few years ago I was bored, so I ran a websearch which happened to find a shareware 4X game called 'Space Empires III'. I played it for a while and enjoyed it, but I was too young to get a credit card so I couldn't pay for the full version. This mean that I got bored of the limitations so forgot about it.
Some time later I rediscovered the game but was still put off by the tech limitations, but I found out about Space Empires IV Gold. After becoming addicted to the demo, I managed to persuade my parents to get me the full game as I still was lacking a credit card. Around the same time I registered on the Shrapnel Games forums. I played SE IV gold and surfed the forums for a time, until I saw a Star Wars mod, and as I liked SW I went onto the site linked and dl'ed the mod and had a look around the site.
On the link page were links to Stardestroyer.net and the Star Wars Technical Commentaries. I clicked on them and was drawn into the SW v ST debates, although I haven't been contributing too much.
Some time later I rediscovered the game but was still put off by the tech limitations, but I found out about Space Empires IV Gold. After becoming addicted to the demo, I managed to persuade my parents to get me the full game as I still was lacking a credit card. Around the same time I registered on the Shrapnel Games forums. I played SE IV gold and surfed the forums for a time, until I saw a Star Wars mod, and as I liked SW I went onto the site linked and dl'ed the mod and had a look around the site.
On the link page were links to Stardestroyer.net and the Star Wars Technical Commentaries. I clicked on them and was drawn into the SW v ST debates, although I haven't been contributing too much.
For example, suppose I wrote a book that within 30 years of the moon landing millions of people could be duped by bad science and endless hectoring into believing that it didn't happen... nah, can't do that, too unbelievable for a fantasy novel, right?--Terry Pratchett, The new Discworld Companion
-
- Homicidal Maniac
- Posts: 6964
- Joined: 2002-07-07 03:06pm
One day in early 2002 I was wandering the web, looking for anything interesting. At this point in time, I was still of the uninformed, unwashed masses that thought Trek was better, or at least close to on-par. Somehow I ended up wandering into Wong's site, before becoming irredeemably corrupted by one of the Trek-centric sites. Upon reading, I realised that what I was seeing made sense, and didn't conflict with my extensive memories of both series. At that point, it became my mission, to whenever I felt like it take a stand against the ignorance of Trek fanatics.
I am old enough to have watched the OT in the theaters in the 70's/80's and have been a huge fan since childhood. After I got out of the military in 97 got my first computer and around that time I started surfing the web. Natually my interests would eventually lead me to SW sites.
I think I origianlly found Dr Saxton's site first but eventually I found Mikes site and been around since. I've never really been a big SWvST guy but since I loved SW and lament the slow destruction of ST, I get the best of both worlds by being in a verses enviroment.
I think I origianlly found Dr Saxton's site first but eventually I found Mikes site and been around since. I've never really been a big SWvST guy but since I loved SW and lament the slow destruction of ST, I get the best of both worlds by being in a verses enviroment.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
- 2000AD
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 6666
- Joined: 2002-07-03 06:32pm
- Location: Leeds, wishing i was still in Newcastle
I was posting in the SW Galaxies forums (waaaay bacl before the game was released) and a ST vs SW debate popped up, got pretty heated and then someone linked to SD.Net. This was probably about a year before the first prototype "forum" (the thing in the AotC section) pooped up, way back when Mike updated quite often
When these forums pooped up i signed on straight off and since then i've occupied the same debating positin i still have: Sitting on the sidelines getting a good dose of entertainment, occasionaly popping up to point out a couple of things, while leaving serious debating the the people most suited to it.
Spent the time between finding SD.Net and forums going up laughing my ass off at the hate mail page, finding out what the hell ASVS stood for, laughing my ass off at the FAQ and working my way through the Fanfic archive, as well as all the other stuff i normally do.
When these forums pooped up i signed on straight off and since then i've occupied the same debating positin i still have: Sitting on the sidelines getting a good dose of entertainment, occasionaly popping up to point out a couple of things, while leaving serious debating the the people most suited to it.
Spent the time between finding SD.Net and forums going up laughing my ass off at the hate mail page, finding out what the hell ASVS stood for, laughing my ass off at the FAQ and working my way through the Fanfic archive, as well as all the other stuff i normally do.
Ph34r teh eyebrow!!11!Writers Guild Sluggite Pawn of Chaos WYGIWYGAINGW so now i have to put ACPATHNTDWATGODW in my sig EBC-Honorary Geordie
Hammerman! Hammer!
Hammerman! Hammer!
I was doing a school project on SW technology and physics (got 100% btw ) and decided to check out the links on Saxton's site (which I had discovered a while ago). One was Wayne Poe's site, which led me to SD.net After weeks of reading, I had assimilated the site, and moved onto the forums.
The debate really ended about two months after I joined.
The debate really ended about two months after I joined.
Name changes are for people who wear women's clothes. - Zuul
Wow. It took me a good minute to remember I didn't have testicles. -xBlackFlash
Are you sure this isn't like that time Michael Jackson stopped by your house so he could use the bathroom? - Superman
Wow. It took me a good minute to remember I didn't have testicles. -xBlackFlash
Are you sure this isn't like that time Michael Jackson stopped by your house so he could use the bathroom? - Superman
- Tribun
- Jedi Council Member
- Posts: 2164
- Joined: 2003-05-25 10:02am
- Location: Lübeck, Germany
- Contact:
Well, my entry was a bit strange, because it was because of Dorkstar, why I joined SD.net.
But before that, I read Saxton's site, finding it really godd, and was surprised, that there are so many things, I never knew. I found it, when I found at VadersMask a link to "The Injuries of Darth Vader".
However, I then was inactive a bit, before at the beginning of May 2003, I discovered. Since I had read Saxton's site, and generally tended more to SW, I was shocked, that someone could do so much indiocy. However, I was curious, what his enemies were. Because, people who are against him, could only be far better.
And that was it, that let me here to SD.net, and into the debate.
But before that, I read Saxton's site, finding it really godd, and was surprised, that there are so many things, I never knew. I found it, when I found at VadersMask a link to "The Injuries of Darth Vader".
However, I then was inactive a bit, before at the beginning of May 2003, I discovered. Since I had read Saxton's site, and generally tended more to SW, I was shocked, that someone could do so much indiocy. However, I was curious, what his enemies were. Because, people who are against him, could only be far better.
And that was it, that let me here to SD.net, and into the debate.
I was on alt.startrek.vs.starwars for some time ( just after the final sollution on TJ ).
Then I discovered the stardestroyer.net Webpage ( no forum at this time ) and the spacebattles forum...
Then I discovered the stardestroyer.net Webpage ( no forum at this time ) and the spacebattles forum...
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
---------
Honorary member of the Rhodanites
---------
Honorary member of the Rhodanites
My first online VS was at the Cavedog totalannihilation message forums. Someone did a thread on a GCS vs ISD and I defended the GCS. A year or so later while browing the Annihilated webboards E1701 (I had known him from the TA community and we knew we were fellow trekkies) pointed me to a wonderful website for VS movies. I downloaded them, said they were unrealistic but fun as hell to watch. A couple days later he mentioned the forum and how it was controled by Warsies. I joined up to fight the good fight.
Soon after joining SB.com the order of things changed and a relative stability came about. B5, ST, and SW were all ranked about the same in the 1v1 ship battles area (almost everyone agreed that SW would win irregardless of ISD strength through sheer weight of numbers alone). Durring one of the earlier skirmishes I was pointed out to SD.net. The DOWs would link to Mike's page and call it end of debate. This irritated me to no end. What got worse was the DOWs saw Mike as incapable of doing no wrong. EVERYTHING he did was perfect. So I joined up with BigBryan and E1701 to point out errors and inconsistancies in Mike's board. We did make mistakes, but the point was made and the DOWs died out.
Then came the first ASVS invassion. The Mike Wong Essays got brought back out and used. Apparently some of the ASVS invaders copied the essays and posted them on ASVS to laugh at. Then Wayne Poe forwarded them to Mike. Some months after the ivnassion I'm told that Mike put them up and refuted them. This actualy thrilled me. I didn't care that they were in the hate mail section. This was media exposure. Anyway I make a few corespondence with Mike. He alters or updates some of the essays pointing out my intent behind certain things or my giving sources for other arguments.
Fast forward a couple years later, enter SD.net forums. About a month after it was created I join up and have now been a member of the larger VS community.
Soon after joining SB.com the order of things changed and a relative stability came about. B5, ST, and SW were all ranked about the same in the 1v1 ship battles area (almost everyone agreed that SW would win irregardless of ISD strength through sheer weight of numbers alone). Durring one of the earlier skirmishes I was pointed out to SD.net. The DOWs would link to Mike's page and call it end of debate. This irritated me to no end. What got worse was the DOWs saw Mike as incapable of doing no wrong. EVERYTHING he did was perfect. So I joined up with BigBryan and E1701 to point out errors and inconsistancies in Mike's board. We did make mistakes, but the point was made and the DOWs died out.
Then came the first ASVS invassion. The Mike Wong Essays got brought back out and used. Apparently some of the ASVS invaders copied the essays and posted them on ASVS to laugh at. Then Wayne Poe forwarded them to Mike. Some months after the ivnassion I'm told that Mike put them up and refuted them. This actualy thrilled me. I didn't care that they were in the hate mail section. This was media exposure. Anyway I make a few corespondence with Mike. He alters or updates some of the essays pointing out my intent behind certain things or my giving sources for other arguments.
Fast forward a couple years later, enter SD.net forums. About a month after it was created I join up and have now been a member of the larger VS community.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
- Batman
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 16392
- Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
- Location: Seriously thinking about moving to Marvel because so much of the DCEU stinks
Well, I have been a SciFi fan since I could read (or close enough) and a SciFi technophile since I met Perry Rhodan (back when they started the 5th reprint).
Fat forward a few years to ST:TNG and the TechManual and...dissapointment galore. No useful numbers whatsoever. No deck plans. No nothing.
So, after another few years fast forward, imagine how delighted I was to find Curtis Saxons SWTC site. Which had all of the above.
A link from there led me to www.sd.net, and so, after an extremely brief stay at ASVS, I ended up here...
Fat forward a few years to ST:TNG and the TechManual and...dissapointment galore. No useful numbers whatsoever. No deck plans. No nothing.
So, after another few years fast forward, imagine how delighted I was to find Curtis Saxons SWTC site. Which had all of the above.
A link from there led me to www.sd.net, and so, after an extremely brief stay at ASVS, I ended up here...
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
Came across sd.net in early 2002; from there I found a link to SB, and started lurking at ASVS. Shortly thereafter, I started mixing it up in SWvsST debates, and got into a number of rather heated debates with the likes of Gothmog, E1701, "expert physicist" Lord Edam, Chris O'Farrell, Vypr and even Alyeska. Had a few fun ones with DorkStar as well; my first posts here were mostly concerning Scooter's retarded asteroid pages.
- Lord of the Farce
- Jedi Council Member
- Posts: 2198
- Joined: 2002-08-06 10:49am
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
The first seed of my Star Wars fandom was planted back when I was around 5 or 6 years old when I saw ROTJ on one of the HK english language channels, and then reintroduced to it a few years later (about 11 years ago) by a friend making me aware that the trilogy was on free-to-air TV.
For the following few years, I had some continued interest in Star Wars, but due to the limited amount of exposure I experience with Star Wars and the relatively high exposure with Star Trek, I would consider myself more of a Star Trek fan.
Around the end of that period, my interest in Star Wars was rising again, after I noticed a few Star Wars books (IIRC, "Heirs of the Empire", a couple of "Tales from the...", and others) in the library. It was also in this new period that in a casual talk about science fiction that somebody made the following comment:
Anyway, this had the effect of causing me to be more curious about the real difference between SW and ST, and my first stop was at a Yahoo! Club. Admittedly, some of my early points were pretty stupid (or at least, poorly researched), but over the years I've gained more experience and knowledge about the topic, though I'd hardly call myself an expert.
Anyway, it was at that Y! club which I encountered a link to StarDestroyer.net, which eventually lead me to this BBS.
*Then again, my reply to his same assertion made years later (only three years ago), this time backed up by researched points, he still stubbornly stuck to his point that "advanced = more powerful".
Oh, and just because I'm feeling cocky, here's my count of scalped opponents at the Y! club:
The 1,000 mile coward: Virus-X
The Kight-Pussy: Mikey Brown
For the following few years, I had some continued interest in Star Wars, but due to the limited amount of exposure I experience with Star Wars and the relatively high exposure with Star Trek, I would consider myself more of a Star Trek fan.
Around the end of that period, my interest in Star Wars was rising again, after I noticed a few Star Wars books (IIRC, "Heirs of the Empire", a couple of "Tales from the...", and others) in the library. It was also in this new period that in a casual talk about science fiction that somebody made the following comment:
That's not a verbatim quote, but you get the meaning. Anyway, this struck my mind as being wrong in more ways than one, and I replied with some probably (can't remember exactly anymore) equally inane methods for SW to kick ST butt using ST weaknesses. The other guy, of course, stubbornly stuck to his point*."Star Trek ships are more powerful than Star Wars because they are more advanced"
Anyway, this had the effect of causing me to be more curious about the real difference between SW and ST, and my first stop was at a Yahoo! Club. Admittedly, some of my early points were pretty stupid (or at least, poorly researched), but over the years I've gained more experience and knowledge about the topic, though I'd hardly call myself an expert.
Anyway, it was at that Y! club which I encountered a link to StarDestroyer.net, which eventually lead me to this BBS.
*Then again, my reply to his same assertion made years later (only three years ago), this time backed up by researched points, he still stubbornly stuck to his point that "advanced = more powerful".
Oh, and just because I'm feeling cocky, here's my count of scalped opponents at the Y! club:
The 1,000 mile coward: Virus-X
The Kight-Pussy: Mikey Brown
"Intelligent Design" Not Accepted by Most Scientists
What was your nick there?The Dude wrote:Came across sd.net in early 2002; from there I found a link to SB, and started lurking at ASVS. Shortly thereafter, I started mixing it up in SWvsST debates, and got into a number of rather heated debates with the likes of Gothmog, E1701, "expert physicist" Lord Edam, Chris O'Farrell, Vypr and even Alyeska. Had a few fun ones with DorkStar as well; my first posts here were mostly concerning Scooter's retarded asteroid pages.
Let him land on any Lyran world to taste firsthand the wrath of peace loving people thwarted by the myopic greed of a few miserly old farts- Katrina Steiner
Oh, lessee....
I went to a few sci-fi conventions when I was younger, and noticed that Trekkies would sit in circles on the ground laughing at how the Enterprise would kick an ISD's ass, Battlestar Galactica, etc. I was disappointed that something like a Star Destroyer from my favorite film would be so weak against Kirk's Enterprise. But the Trekkies insisted it was true; and they made documentation from the epiodes to prove it.
About 1995, I started reading Usenet groups, and my first stop was rec.arts.starwars. Then I learned this was a largely abandoned group, and everyone moved to rec.arts.scifi.starwars.misc, or RASSM. Soon after, a dozen or so Trek newsgroups cross-posted to the SW group, and everyone was arguing who was the best.
I wished the Star Destroyers were more powerful, to shut these Trekkies up, then, a wonderful thing happened. Some guy named Stephen Cumblidge began arguing for SW, and pointed out that the ISD was MUCH more powerful than the E-D by calculating the very first asteroid calcs. Then he pointed to the 400GW quote from Survivors, and DS9's "By Inferno's Light" which showed the Starfleet couldn't escape a supernova if Bajor's sun exploded. That caused as much of a shit-storm back then as the AOTC:ICS did!
Shortly after, Robert Brown posted to RASSM about his Millennium Falcon page, and I was completely blown away. I became a contributor to his page, and he told me about a friend of his that had a Technical Commentaries site. Curtis' site was amazing, and I forwarded him Stephen's asteroid calcs. He refined them, and Mike Wong did as well, and became a contributor to Curtis' site. Stephen Cumblide fell off the face of the Earth shortly after that. I started posting long passages from Curtis Saxton's site, which enraged the Trekkies even more. I started noticing Mike Wong about that time, and I began really getting into the debates about 1996, and battled the first of many Trekkie enemies like Doug Fortunato, Mike Dicenso, James Grady Ward, and Daniel L. Taylor; themselves Darkstar idiots in their own time.
RASSM and many of the Trek groups got tired of the cross-posting, and someone formed alt.startrek.vs.starwars. I was so fascinated by these guys like Curtis and Mike and Stephen with degrees and college classes taking this stuff as serious debate, that I didn't want it lost to the ravages of time, so I started my website about 1997, with "best of" battle postings from RASSM and earlier. Even a former Trekkie enemy, Mike Dicenso, sent me his copies of TNG and Ds9 episodes on tape that aided in building the website! (I think that truce was short lived. I understand he doesn't have kind words for me these days). Cronan Thompson began blasting the Trekkies with hilarious results about that time too.
Yes, I've fought them all, even Timothy Jones, and Timeout, and Scottty.
Anyway, the rest is history!
I went to a few sci-fi conventions when I was younger, and noticed that Trekkies would sit in circles on the ground laughing at how the Enterprise would kick an ISD's ass, Battlestar Galactica, etc. I was disappointed that something like a Star Destroyer from my favorite film would be so weak against Kirk's Enterprise. But the Trekkies insisted it was true; and they made documentation from the epiodes to prove it.
About 1995, I started reading Usenet groups, and my first stop was rec.arts.starwars. Then I learned this was a largely abandoned group, and everyone moved to rec.arts.scifi.starwars.misc, or RASSM. Soon after, a dozen or so Trek newsgroups cross-posted to the SW group, and everyone was arguing who was the best.
I wished the Star Destroyers were more powerful, to shut these Trekkies up, then, a wonderful thing happened. Some guy named Stephen Cumblidge began arguing for SW, and pointed out that the ISD was MUCH more powerful than the E-D by calculating the very first asteroid calcs. Then he pointed to the 400GW quote from Survivors, and DS9's "By Inferno's Light" which showed the Starfleet couldn't escape a supernova if Bajor's sun exploded. That caused as much of a shit-storm back then as the AOTC:ICS did!
Shortly after, Robert Brown posted to RASSM about his Millennium Falcon page, and I was completely blown away. I became a contributor to his page, and he told me about a friend of his that had a Technical Commentaries site. Curtis' site was amazing, and I forwarded him Stephen's asteroid calcs. He refined them, and Mike Wong did as well, and became a contributor to Curtis' site. Stephen Cumblide fell off the face of the Earth shortly after that. I started posting long passages from Curtis Saxton's site, which enraged the Trekkies even more. I started noticing Mike Wong about that time, and I began really getting into the debates about 1996, and battled the first of many Trekkie enemies like Doug Fortunato, Mike Dicenso, James Grady Ward, and Daniel L. Taylor; themselves Darkstar idiots in their own time.
RASSM and many of the Trek groups got tired of the cross-posting, and someone formed alt.startrek.vs.starwars. I was so fascinated by these guys like Curtis and Mike and Stephen with degrees and college classes taking this stuff as serious debate, that I didn't want it lost to the ravages of time, so I started my website about 1997, with "best of" battle postings from RASSM and earlier. Even a former Trekkie enemy, Mike Dicenso, sent me his copies of TNG and Ds9 episodes on tape that aided in building the website! (I think that truce was short lived. I understand he doesn't have kind words for me these days). Cronan Thompson began blasting the Trekkies with hilarious results about that time too.
Yes, I've fought them all, even Timothy Jones, and Timeout, and Scottty.
Anyway, the rest is history!
Kinda pathetic when my old days in the debate come about after you've already become a vetran. Seems none of the Trek veterans from that era really hung around.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
- harbringer
- Padawan Learner
- Posts: 479
- Joined: 2003-12-01 09:02am
- Location: Outreach - Lyran Alliance
- Contact:
I originally came into the debate scene when a friend that I met through TTG's started spouting crap about the federation kicking the empires ass. Now I had seen both star trek and star wars and didn't think it could happen but I was at a loss as to what proved it exactly and that was what he wanted (oohhh it was fine for - The Enterprise would whip an ISD - but if I tried to do the same thing he said prove it.) for his proof he used scooters website. After a couple of searches I found a website I think run by the Master of Ossius mailed him got a pointer to here and liked it so I stayed.
"Depending on who you talk to, a mercenary can be anything from a savior to the scum of the universe. On the Wolf's Dragoons world of Outreach, the Mercenary's Star, we know what a merc really is - a business man." - Wolf's Dragoons, Outreach (Merc World mag. 3056)
A buddie of mine is always telling me how much "better Star Wars" is than trek, the usual argument- I'm a big fan of one series, he a big fan of the other, so its constant argument and attempts to justify why either is better, lol.
He's always quoting figures at me, fictional figures of course, which make Star Wars ships much more powerful than canon Trek ships, but I can't argue with him there, in the Trek universe, Trek ships are powerful enough and that's all that matters. Size and Power seem to be a bigger issue for Wars fans.
Online, this is pretty much the first place I've come across to actually argue it out, but it seems I'm too late, it's all been done, so reading will suit me.
He's always quoting figures at me, fictional figures of course, which make Star Wars ships much more powerful than canon Trek ships, but I can't argue with him there, in the Trek universe, Trek ships are powerful enough and that's all that matters. Size and Power seem to be a bigger issue for Wars fans.
Online, this is pretty much the first place I've come across to actually argue it out, but it seems I'm too late, it's all been done, so reading will suit me.
- Gandalf
- SD.net White Wizard
- Posts: 16354
- Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
- Location: A video store in Australia
I was perousing the SW.com forums, they had an SW vs ST thread. I was still in the "navigational deflectors" phase of debate.
I came here, are being initially shocked and horrified, I grew to like it. I created an account on the forums on day 4 of it's operation, forgot about it and came back later with this one.
I came here, are being initially shocked and horrified, I grew to like it. I created an account on the forums on day 4 of it's operation, forgot about it and came back later with this one.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"
- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist
"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"
- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist
"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
- Slartibartfast
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 6730
- Joined: 2002-09-10 05:35pm
- Location: Where The Sea Meets The Sky
- Contact:
I've never actually been IN the debate. I'd say I first discovered it after finding Saxton's and reading it start to finish (the hyperspace explanations really caught me). I also when I was a kid thought, poor Star Wars, they only have lasers, nav deflectors, yadda yadda. But if Trek fans say so it must be true, etc. Before reading Saxton's site, I had read a few crossovers, and usually the Star Wars side was always sold short.
So I think I did a Versus search or something and found SD.Net, when it hadn't been up for long. All the scientific explanations made sense to me, and I felt happy that SW was actually a lot stronger. I don't debate SW vs ST but I enjoy watching the SW side win.
So I think I did a Versus search or something and found SD.Net, when it hadn't been up for long. All the scientific explanations made sense to me, and I felt happy that SW was actually a lot stronger. I don't debate SW vs ST but I enjoy watching the SW side win.
- Kamakazie Sith
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 7555
- Joined: 2002-07-03 05:00pm
- Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
In a debate between universes size and power matter a whole lot.Jon wrote:A buddie of mine is always telling me how much "better Star Wars" is than trek, the usual argument- I'm a big fan of one series, he a big fan of the other, so its constant argument and attempts to justify why either is better, lol.
He's always quoting figures at me, fictional figures of course, which make Star Wars ships much more powerful than canon Trek ships, but I can't argue with him there, in the Trek universe, Trek ships are powerful enough and that's all that matters. Size and Power seem to be a bigger issue for Wars fans.
Online, this is pretty much the first place I've come across to actually argue it out, but it seems I'm too late, it's all been done, so reading will suit me.
I had debated on the side with STvsSW with my friends but we never got too serious. Anyway, I really got into it when I found SB.com. We had numerous debates there and things weren't as one sided as they are now, except among the Pro-SW population. I'd say both sides won an even number of discussions but that could be a bias opinion.
I then found ASVS, and debated in both areas for some time. I learned a whole lot during that time, even though I had discussions with my friends the rules of debate were quite foreign to me and I had some hard lessons at ASVS, especially against such favorites as Durandal and Wilkens, but thankful ASVS isn't as hardcore as they like you to believe....well as long as it doesn't take them a thousand tries to get through, if you go over that you were fucked! .... I barely missed that mark, I think....
They say hind sight is 20/20 and I can say that Mike Wong wasn't given near enough credit by myself, call it denial because that's exactly what it was. There were a couple of events that opened my eyes. One was one of the April fools jokes that he pulled at SB.com, that was pretty damn good lol. The other is a discussion I had with him regarding his shield page, specifically, the death USS Odyessy, and he was very civil but to the point. I gained a lot of respect for Mike Wong after those two events.
The Pro-SW side started to win more and more victories and by the time ICS came out it was just simply icing on the cake. SD.net was opened and I joined to support the ST side, even though we'd already lost we still debates to fight it seems as there was no limit to how far some Pro-SW would take ST down.
The rest is just history....
Milites Astrum Exterminans
- Cyborg Stan
- Jedi Knight
- Posts: 849
- Joined: 2002-12-10 01:59am
- Location: Still Hungry.
- Contact:
I believe it was '96 or '97, in which I was surfing around randomly for stuff, much as I do now. After mucking about on Yahoo, I managed to find a Star Wars vs Star Trek category, and from there I eventually found a website with a forum for that. From there, I got acquianted with Brian Young's work, then probably Saxton's and Poe's. Much later, I managed to go on ASVS.
ASVS Vets Assoc, Class of 1999
Geh Ick Bleah
Avatar is an image of Yuyuko Saigyouji from the Touhou Series.
Geh Ick Bleah
Avatar is an image of Yuyuko Saigyouji from the Touhou Series.
- nightmare
- Jedi Council Member
- Posts: 1539
- Joined: 2002-07-26 11:07am
- Location: Here. Sometimes there.
Well, let's see.. I started out as a growing fan of science and space exploration, growing up in the dying residue of the space race.
I missed out on the original release of ANH, being a bit too young to be able to go myself, something that irked me to no avail. Trek, however, was comparatively plentiful on TV.
I enjoyed TOS, though the setting was usually corny, it was 60's disco in space. Still, it had something original and special to it.
I watched TNG and enjoyed most of it.. especially when they blew stuff up and didn't get holier-than-thou philosophical.
By chance, I was roleplaying a little with WEG and decided to do a crossover (long story, actually). This is when I first had to consider power levels - what would my captured ISD be compared to Klingon BOPs? I didn't have any numbers behind it, but after considering size and observed firepower for a couple minutes, I had my answer.
Not long after this, I stumbled upon "I Want You..", Mike's site. Took a good long while to read through it, but it confirmed what I suspected, and I learned a lot more about both SW and ST by then. It was never any question which side I preferred, but I never compared them scientifically before. I got the message, and a number of good links - spacebattles, in which I lurked for years, simply because I could learn and read about a lot of scifi there. ASVS, which I made a couple brief cameos in, (though I was VS. debating for the first time on another usenet group, in which I was defending B5 vs Trek, though not with any great conviction.) and the ASVS crossover archive, which has some very good fanfics along with a few really bad ones. Finally but not least, SWTC. A haven for scifi analysis in general and SW in particular.
I guess I got hooked.. I was continually irked by irrational statements for Trek by some of its now infamous supporters, which made me like Trek less than I originally did. When Voyager got into its second season, I gave up on it. It itched like a scabbing wound.
when sd.net forums was first created, I was actually by chance the first here after Mike thanks to the time difference, but I didn't sign up for some reason. I guess I wanted to see if it turned out to something interesting first. Which I have to say it did, and I have learned a lot more about scifi and some about science, too, in my stay here.
Additionally, I joined a SW rpg site back in 2000, which I'm now running.. this place has helped me improve its quality.
Although I was part of the orignal SW fans, I actually like the prequels. I was a bit disappointed by TPM, but that was only because of two things - the heavy commercialism that wasn't part of (but quickly became) the original SW, and the hype built up before TPM. Now I enjoy it more with every time I watch it without those concerns. AOTC was a great movie.
The EU annoys me however, with such things as IG-2000 taking over the Death Star, the rebel heroes always win, in a stupid way to boot, tiny fighters being a serious threat to capital ships etc. Fortunately, SW policy allows me to ignore most of those.
There you have it, a long and gradual story, and now that the era of great debates are essentially over, I spend less time on following the SW-vs-ST debate. Real life concerns also takes a lot more of my time these days.
I missed out on the original release of ANH, being a bit too young to be able to go myself, something that irked me to no avail. Trek, however, was comparatively plentiful on TV.
I enjoyed TOS, though the setting was usually corny, it was 60's disco in space. Still, it had something original and special to it.
I watched TNG and enjoyed most of it.. especially when they blew stuff up and didn't get holier-than-thou philosophical.
By chance, I was roleplaying a little with WEG and decided to do a crossover (long story, actually). This is when I first had to consider power levels - what would my captured ISD be compared to Klingon BOPs? I didn't have any numbers behind it, but after considering size and observed firepower for a couple minutes, I had my answer.
Not long after this, I stumbled upon "I Want You..", Mike's site. Took a good long while to read through it, but it confirmed what I suspected, and I learned a lot more about both SW and ST by then. It was never any question which side I preferred, but I never compared them scientifically before. I got the message, and a number of good links - spacebattles, in which I lurked for years, simply because I could learn and read about a lot of scifi there. ASVS, which I made a couple brief cameos in, (though I was VS. debating for the first time on another usenet group, in which I was defending B5 vs Trek, though not with any great conviction.) and the ASVS crossover archive, which has some very good fanfics along with a few really bad ones. Finally but not least, SWTC. A haven for scifi analysis in general and SW in particular.
I guess I got hooked.. I was continually irked by irrational statements for Trek by some of its now infamous supporters, which made me like Trek less than I originally did. When Voyager got into its second season, I gave up on it. It itched like a scabbing wound.
when sd.net forums was first created, I was actually by chance the first here after Mike thanks to the time difference, but I didn't sign up for some reason. I guess I wanted to see if it turned out to something interesting first. Which I have to say it did, and I have learned a lot more about scifi and some about science, too, in my stay here.
Additionally, I joined a SW rpg site back in 2000, which I'm now running.. this place has helped me improve its quality.
Although I was part of the orignal SW fans, I actually like the prequels. I was a bit disappointed by TPM, but that was only because of two things - the heavy commercialism that wasn't part of (but quickly became) the original SW, and the hype built up before TPM. Now I enjoy it more with every time I watch it without those concerns. AOTC was a great movie.
The EU annoys me however, with such things as IG-2000 taking over the Death Star, the rebel heroes always win, in a stupid way to boot, tiny fighters being a serious threat to capital ships etc. Fortunately, SW policy allows me to ignore most of those.
There you have it, a long and gradual story, and now that the era of great debates are essentially over, I spend less time on following the SW-vs-ST debate. Real life concerns also takes a lot more of my time these days.
-
- Pathetic Attention Whore
- Posts: 5470
- Joined: 2003-02-17 12:04pm
- Location: Bat Country!
Ever Since i was a child i'd loved st and sw. In '01 or '00 (i think late '00 but i could be wrong) my family got our first computer that was actually connected to the net. I browsed around. My first phase of comptuer usage was browsing desktopstarships for scfi wall papers. Looking around for other such sites i came across ditl. It formed my inital knowldge of ST and the OT and a few novels made up my SW info. I then got heavily into free MMORPGs and MMOTBS games. The key one being darkgalaxy. One day someone on the dg forums started a debate about ST vs SW. I ofc used the Turbolazer<Navigational deflector argument in an attempt to defeat the pro wars faction that was pwning the debate. Lantz posted a link to sd.net and i browsed around. Thinking that the IWYFTGE portal and dind't contain anything of value (how stoopid was i???) I immeadatly posted in a thread the nav deflectors argument. After being told to read the site i read a little bit and then still insisted on arguing that the Ent E could defeat like 4 tie D's. After being pwned in that thread I throuroughly read the site and realized my idiotic mistakes. I came in too late for the real debate so i've never been involved in any real debate other than the bashing of utter idiots and perusing of old threads and the various websites on it. I've recentley dabbled in ASVS and have enjoyed it.