Thrawn Defects to the Federation

[Sam Or I]

Thrawn Defects to the Federation before the war, for reasons of his own. Would this change the balance of the Imperial Invasion, and how so?

[Mr Bean]

Thrawn is the best damn stratagist avaible to the Federation

However even he can not take a Fleet of 10,000 Ships that one needs to attack ONE ISD and make a fight of it

The Stravo Fanfic is an excellent example of how hard it is even for a brillant Commander to do anything aginst a massive-overbearing enemy


1 ISD VS 500 of any Federation Ship is predoomed to failure because they don't have enough Quantum Torps onboard to bring down an ISD's shields

Short of pulling something completly out of left wing, Thrawn goes down, and goes down hard


As it was pointed out 1 Excutitor has enough Shield Covrage so that a Federation Fleet of 10,000 Defiants(Which they don't have mind you) would be unable to take down the Exc because they would have to RELOAD MISSLES TWICE, oh and surive aginst 400 Guns which can kill any ship in one shot that fire 2 second rate(Once per 2/sec) and they need over half a hour of pounding to take down a single shield...

At any point in time the Exc can run and accept the hundreds of losses it inflected to its enemys and the zero losses it took

[Ender]

Well thrawn did manage to do nasty damage tp Parak's group with extremely primitive Tech, so it wouldn't be to big a stretch to say he would do the same here.

IF he had time to prepare, maybe he could change the outcome. But I find that unlikely. Good as he was, the Empire has 12 other GA's to call on to send after him enmass if need be.

[Mr Bean]

Well thrawn did manage to do nasty damage tp Parak's group with extremely primitive Tech, so it wouldn't be to big a stretch to say he would do the same here.

They where out-gunned and outnumberd but only by a Factor of 20, Not 20,000

[Alyeska]

Well thrawn did manage to do nasty damage tp Parak's group with extremely primitive Tech, so it wouldn't be to big a stretch to say he would do the same here.

They where out-gunned and outnumberd but only by a Factor of 20, Not 20,000

IIRC they were outnumbered 20-1. They didn't really state how heavily they were outgunned other then saying Thrawn had "primitive" ships.

[Vympel]

Worst. Versus Topic. EVER.

[Mr Bean]

No they where outgunned 5 to 1, PLUS the weaponry factor of being outgunned by 2 or 3 times as much, so I round it, and Say 20-1 WITH numbers AND Weapon-counts

They had primative ships (How much is not said) but the weapons apperntly where not

Great Leadership is a Force-multiplier, but not THAT much of one

[Failed Glory]

This is odd... in any other thread Thrawn kicks the ass of a 1000 ISDs with a tie fighter and a blaster (no hyperbole). "He never makes a mistake and is unbeatable" has been seen numerous times on this board.

Perhaps change the question to one like the following: If Thrawn decided to carve out the entire Milky Way for his desires and control, how many ships would he need to overtake and protect the galaxy?

Consider there is only one way from each galaxy to the other, so there is only one point to protect from Imperial interests.

Take the Borg, Romulans, Feds, and whatever other forces in the Milky Way that must be quashed into account as well as calming the native folk of the Milky Way.

[Alyeska]

Actually Thrawn does make mistakes and wrong conclussions. Just read the Thrawn triology. He looks at evidence as to what is going on and makes plenty of mistakes. However they are usually conservative mistakes in reasoning that allow him to compensate for the possible mistake. The only CRITICAL mistake that Thrawn ever made was placing a recording unit on the Viper motivator that was installed on a De-con droid. Had he installed a transmitter the droid would have managed to warn Thrawn about the Noghri before the Noghri would have known about it. With that warning, Rukh (sp) and all other Noghri units would have been detained or sent home where Thrawn would have punished them. Thrawn would have survived Bilbringi and the New Republic would have been fucked. The Vong would have been dealt with instantly and destroyed when they eventually pushed.

[Ender]

Well thrawn did manage to do nasty damage tp Parak's group with extremely primitive Tech, so it wouldn't be to big a stretch to say he would do the same here.

They where out-gunned and outnumberd but only by a Factor of 20, Not 20,000

1) That was a slam against Feddie tech, though it only makes sense if you knew what I was referring to. Which brings me to point 2

2) I was not talking about his first encounter with the "destroy outbound flight" group, I was talking about how he took out 2 Ties and some stormies after being banished to a planet. He had squat, yet raised hell. HTat was why Parak brought him back.

Frankly I think he can do alot to improve the Feddies chances, if he has time. Give him a year like he had in the heri to the Empire bit to prepare for the offensive, and I garuntee you the Imperial commander will be calling for the other GA's and superweapon backup.

[Admiral Drason]

Why the hell would he join the feddies int the first place. Hes to smart to fight a war which he knows he will probably loss. He might take over the feddies to help him take over the Milky Way but not to fight the Empire. He would just join forces with the rebels and hand the imps there asses if he wants to fight Imperials.

[Vendetta]

No, he would die in the same old stupid Imperial way of completely failing to take somegthing into account.

He may have a reputation as a great strategist, but he also fell for his own press, believing his control over the Noghri to be absolute.

He made an assumption, and it was fatal to him.

[Mr Bean]

I was not talking about his first encounter with the "destroy outbound flight" group, I was talking about how he took out 2 Ties and some stormies after being banished to a planet. He had squat, yet raised hell. HTat was why Parak brought him back.

Not it was not Read Vison of the Future, The Chiss gave thier side of the story plus Baron Fel was in it add his own part

They took out the Imperal Force sent to take out the Outbound Project and on urging from one of Papys advisors who was along as well destroyed the Out-Bound Project, Since he first met the Imperals he was planing soon after to join them, THAT is why they brought him back Because Parak was SENT by Papy to get Thrawn after word reached him of his excile and offer him the Deal

[Publius]

Admiral Thrawn's prowess is grossly overestimated by both sides. In "Mist Encounter," Mitth'raw'nuruodo only managed to accomplish what he did -- killing a few stormtroopers and downing a pair of TIE fighters -- through a combination of luck, subterfuge, and the lack of preparation on the part of the newly-minted Imperial forces.

It is important to remember that the Imperials were anticipating encounters with smugglers, not with an unknown alien. The stormtrooper commander, Colonel Mosh Barris, was also a mediocre officer of limited talent; he was thereafter cashiered from the Marines and reassigned as prefect of a minor and unimportant world (Garqi; refer to "Missed Chance").

Secondly, the extent of Commander Mitth'raw'nuruodo's victory over the minor task force despatched to eliminate the Outbound Flight project is grossly exaggerated. Remember, the Outbound Flight was destroyed shortly before the Clone Wars began. Prior to the emergency powers resolution seen in Attack of the Clones, Supreme Chancellor Palpatine had very limited authority. There was no standing military or naval force (ref. Cloak of Deception, Rebellion Era Sourcebook, HoloNet News), and the only Republic-level forces with any warmaking capacity are the Jedi Order and the Republican Guard, a branch within the Judicial Department.

In Cloak of Deception, when Supreme Chancellor Valorum despatched a group of Judicials on a serious mission, they were transported aboard courier ships of the same make as the Radiant VII, which was effortlessly destroyed by the Acquisitor in the opening scenes of The Phantom Menace. Indeed, the fleet Senator Tarkin assembled to fight in the Stark Hyperspace Conflict was composed of just such "warships." It is generally suggested by the Imperial Sourcebook that Dreadnaught heavy cruisers were the most powerful warships in common use prior to the introduction of the Victory Star Destroyer; Rogue Planet hints strongly that the Dreadnaughts are, in fact, in the hands of the Security Forces, not in the hands of the Judicial Department.

It can be established, then, with a certain degree of probability, that Supreme Chancellor Palpatine was not able to despatch ships significantly more powerful than the couriers generally used by the Judicial Department and the Republican Guard. They were probably crewed by the Republican Guard (The Stele Chronicles state that he had close ties with the Guard, and the New Essential Guide to Characters says he was strongly supported by Commander Terrinald Screed of the Judicial Department), which means that the force sent to destroy the Outbound Flight is the galactic equivalent of a Federal Bureau of Investigation task force.

Furthermore, the entire force was under the command of Kinman Doriana, one of the Supreme Chancellor's aides. Citizen Doriana is not a trained officers; he was placed in charge in order to ensure that the matter was dealt with discreetly.

Consider, then, that the primitive nature of the Chiss' technology and ships was grossly exaggerated by Admiral Parck. Gamer #5 indicates quite clearly that (with the exception of unconscionably inferior hyperspatial navigation) the Chiss are generally on technological par with the galaxy proper. The Chiss do not possess any warships greater in length than 300 metres, but that is hardly a significant setback when it is considered that the opposing forces most probably did not contain a single ship comparable to an escort frigate.

In effect, the mismatch between the two forces is not quite so severe as Admiral Parck suggests. This is not surprising, considering the distinctly propagandistic tone of Admiral Parck's comments -- he goes so far as to suggest that Mara Jade, Lord Vader, and Admiral Thrawn were the Emperor's replacements for Citizen Doriana. He also demonstrates that he ascribes to the cult of the leader, as far as Admiral Thrawn is concerned; he suggests that any true warrior would be glad to sacrifice everything to follow Admiral Thrawn. Admiral Parck's speech sounds like the adulation of a Communist for General Secretary Stalin during the Second World War (which is not altogether inappropriate; Gamer #5 reveals that the Chiss are in fact Communists).

In reference to the original topic:

Admiral Thrawn's defection to the United Federation would have no appreciable effect on the war effort.

Admiral Thrawn was not the only grand admiral in the Empire's service. There are others, who are by definition his peers. Not only is he matched by any of the others among the Emperor's grand admirals, but the New Essential Guide to Characters states quite plainly that Fleet Admiral Piett exhibited genius to match that of any of the grand admirals. Admiral Ackbar defeated Grand Admiral Syn in battle; Grand Admiral Grunger and Grand Admiral Pitta destroyed one another. Grand admirals are far from invincible, the tiresome deification of Mr Zahn's author surrogate notwithstanding.

The Last Command and Isard's Revenge reveal that Admiral Thrawn blundered badly at the Battle of Bilbringi; by the time he was killed, the battle had degenerated to the point that it was unsalvageable. He had utterly failed to establish an adequate defensive perimeter around the shipyards; his battle plan was so poorly and sloppily done that the loss of a single Golan station, incapacitated by a single starfighter squadron and a pair of assault frigates, thoroughly wrecked the entire plan. Admiral Thrawn's forces were so poorly positioned that he could not spare any ships to provide defence for the shipyards; to do so would so badly disrupt his plan even further that it was simply not done.

Finally, Admiral Thrawn has not only his equals, but his betters. In the end, when all is said and done, Admiral Thrawn's logistical and strategic deprivation, his manpower and equipment shortfalls, his ignominious death and failure -- all was orchestrated by a single man, whose genius so far exceeded his that to compare them is to compare Alexander with Ney, Iulius Cæsar with Quinctilius Varus, Napoléon with Burnsides.

If Admiral Thrawn were to defect to the United Federation, it would be meaningless in the grand scheme of things. The glorious Galactic Empire would remain strategically and logistically invincible; its economy and warmaking capacity would still dwarf those of the United Federation. The Empire would retain its college of grand admirals -- Admiral Thrawn's peers and equals --, and, more importantly, the Galactic Emperor himself -- Admiral Thrawn's uncontested better -- would remain firmly in power.

Conclusion: Defection is irrelevant. Resistance is futile.

Publius

[Guest]

Thrawn Defects to the Federation before the war, for reasons of his own. Would this change the balance of the Imperial Invasion, and how so?

Son don't be silly, Thrawn is a Tatical Master not a suicidal maniac, it'd never happen.

[Alyeska]

Thrawn Defects to the Federation before the war, for reasons of his own. Would this change the balance of the Imperial Invasion, and how so?

Son don't be silly, Thrawn is a Tatical Master not a suicidal maniac, it'd never happen.

And ST vs SW would happen? Just debate the topic, don't evade it.

[Isolder74]

Thrawn Defects to the Federation before the war, for reasons of his own. Would this change the balance of the Imperial Invasion, and how so?

Son don't be silly, Thrawn is a Tatical Master not a suicidal maniac, it'd never happen.

Agreed

[Alyeska]

If you people refuse to debate this topic because of how unrealistic it is, then you ought not be posting in this forum at all.

[Patrick Degan]

Even if Thrawn were completely the vaunted genius he is touted to be —and even military geniuses are not perfect (see Lee at Gettysburg)— it would make no difference in the outcome of an Empire/UFP war. The greatest general who ever lived could do nothing against a vastly superior enemy force with far greater firepower and numbers than he can ever hope to bring to the table.

[Sam Or I]

Fine a backstory

At the last second before Thrawns death, Q saves him and transports him to the milkyway. Him with the tatical knoweldge he has, eventually takes over the Federation, the Klingon and the Romulan Empires. By this time A captian that once served under Thrawn, who has a Personal grudge against him (for keeping him down, by being to politacally ambitious) finds out he is Alive, he is now admiral of a Imperial task force. Q leads him to a wormhole to the Alpha Quadrant. Would Thrawn be able to defend the Alpha Quadrent from one imperial task force.

Better? Reasons are a dime a dozen of why.

[Ironwolf]

eventually takes over the Federation, the Klingon and the Romulan Empires

If that is the case, then I am sure we are talking over a few years in which he has time to reinvent some of the technology from his previous position and would probably be able to mount a half descent defense. He seems to know the procedures trained to and used by the tractor beam operators as evident when Luke gets away from him the second time. I'm sure that he would have some knowledge as to how the offensive and defensive measures work in his old universe and possibly find ways to duplicate or some semblance of them in the Milky Way.

[Mr Bean]

Depends on the sized of the task-force, any greater than three ISDs and he's fucked six ways from Sunday,

Stravo's idea he had Kirk use in his fanfic(With some slight modifcations I noted to stick to Cannon) is the only vauge way that Thrawn can stand a chance short of loading 1,000 Ships with high expolsives per ISD

[Stravo]

Depends on the sized of the task-force, any greater than three ISDs and he's fucked six ways from Sunday,

Stravo's idea he had Kirk use in his fanfic(With some slight modifcations I noted to stick to Cannon) is the only vauge way that Thrawn can stand a chance short of loading 1,000 Ships with high expolsives per ISD

Damn Bean that was Kirk's second trick!

[consequences]

True, his first trick of that battle was the "beam a bomb" tactic, first used in star Trek novel #18 "My Enemy, My Ally." He also had other tricks he used to ecape in both of his previous encounters with Imperial Forces.

[Guest]

Thrawn's only mistake ever was in over estimating his enemies, for arguements sake say he did take over the AQ he still couldn't upgrade the fleets enough to withstand an Imperial Task force. He was a Grand Admiral not an enqineer he'd never be able to design a Star Destroyer on his own. Thrawn understood his enemies psycology and knew how to use a Star Destroyer effectivly, he did not know thr entire workigns of the Imperial Ships