Microsoft to face a record fine in the EU

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Post by Sharp-kun »

Dooey Jo wrote:Wait a second, does the EU want to fine MS because they're shipping the Media Player with Windows? Was that the best reason they could come up with? When I first saw the headlines in the news I thought it was more of the usual monopoly they always get in trouble for, but it turns out it is because of WMP?
Thats what I said. Yay to the general idea, boo to the specific point.

The general public seem to be either neutral or against this from what I've seen. They view it as the EU just creating work for them, they want to be able to play media without the hassle of picking software and installing it.

Dooey Jo wrote:But now the EU wants to take that away from me?
Yes, because thats the reason people don't use Realplayer ;) :roll:
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Post by Edi »

Dooey Jo wrote:Wait a second, does the EU want to fine MS because they're shipping the Media Player with Windows? Was that the best reason they could come up with? When I first saw the headlines in the news I thought it was more of the usual monopoly they always get in trouble for, but it turns out it is because of WMP?
Not just because of that, but because of MS aim of squeezing everyone else who is in the media player business out of it, the way they did to Netscape in the browser wars in the 1990s. Microsoft is illegally trying to drive competition out of business. It's also trying to illegally leverage its OS monopoly into server markets (which is what half of the EU decision was all about) and if past MS behavior is any clue, they will also extend this practice into firewall and security software by "integrating" something into the OS and gradually mixing the non-essential code into essential code in such a way that it won't later be possible to remove it, and then they will bitch and moan about the authorities trying to stifle their "innovation".

Another big issue is that of the closed file formats and what is going to be adopted as industry standard, because if the proprietary WMP media formats become de facto standard, that will give MS a near-complete monopoly on digital media content the way they now have in desktop operating systems, so it's also another case of trying to illegally leverage a monopoly into related markets, and this after their current monopoly was also determined to have been acquired through illegal means.

Dooey Jo wrote:By doing this, the EU forces us that can't get anything better than a 56-k connection to use RP and therefor getting a shitload of spam and other such shit! I thought the EU was to pass a law against spam...
Tough bananas. I'm in the same position as you are, but I'd rather go without WMP than hand MS a free license to dictate what I can and can't watch and with what.

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Post by Sharp-kun »

Edi wrote: Not just because of that, but because of MS aim of squeezing everyone else who is in the media player business out of it, the way they did to Netscape in the browser wars in the 1990s.
I thought the reason Netscape lost out was because they were crap? Thats why I switched.
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Post by phongn »

The bundling practices certainly contributed to Netscape's downfall, but NS4 was not a good product. The NS5 project that would become Mozilla took far too long to get anywhere as well.
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Post by Sharp-kun »

phongn wrote:The bundling practices certainly contributed to Netscape's downfall, but NS4 was not a good product. The NS5 project that would become Mozilla took far too long to get anywhere as well.
Contributed to it yes, but I wouldn't say it was a huge factor. Didn't AOL bundle netscape to users? Given their size, I would have thought that would give a large user base.
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Post by phongn »

AOL intended to use NS5 as their next-generation browser ... but the Mozilla project took too long to get done, so they went with IE.
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Post by General Zod »

Sharp-kun wrote:
Edi wrote: Not just because of that, but because of MS aim of squeezing everyone else who is in the media player business out of it, the way they did to Netscape in the browser wars in the 1990s.
I thought the reason Netscape lost out was because they were crap? Thats why I switched.
according to alot of people netscape was supposedly the better browser. however the fact that netscape charged to download it made alot of people switch over to microsoft, who didn't charge for their browser at all. plus, microsoft eventually stopped incorporating NS in windows bundles, exclusively using IE.
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Post by Crayz9000 »

Dooey Jo wrote:One of the things I actually like about Windows is that I get one of the best (of not the best) media players with it for free. But now the EU wants to take that away from me? Then, they can at least give some money to my phone company and let me have that damned ADSL so I can download WMP. The only player that really is small enough for me to download is RealPlayer, and I hate that fucking thing; the spywares and ads and all that crap.
RealPlayer... small? Are you kidding me?

If you want a good, small, fast media player, try Media Player Classic. Or BSPlayer. Both are only a little over a megabyte to download, which certainly beats RP8's ~5 megabytes.
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Post by phongn »

Darth_Zod wrote:according to alot of people netscape was supposedly the better browser. however the fact that netscape charged to download it made alot of people switch over to microsoft, who didn't charge for their browser at all. plus, microsoft eventually stopped incorporating NS in windows bundles, exclusively using IE.
You try coding CSS for Netscape 4. It just plain doesn't work.
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Post by Crayz9000 »

I've coded CSS for Netscape 4. I had to make two separate pages, one specifically for NS4 and the other for everything else. It was a pain in the ass to implement, too, since I needed to first make a JavaScript that would determine which browser was being used (thanks, Microsoft, for fucking up the standard browser tag) and then direct you to the proper page.
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Post by phongn »

IIRC, not a few sites used SSI to determine what browser you used and then transparently sent you to the proper size. IIRC, Amazon does this, and at least at one point they still supported Lynx(!)
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Post by General Zod »

phongn wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote:according to alot of people netscape was supposedly the better browser. however the fact that netscape charged to download it made alot of people switch over to microsoft, who didn't charge for their browser at all. plus, microsoft eventually stopped incorporating NS in windows bundles, exclusively using IE.
You try coding CSS for Netscape 4. It just plain doesn't work.
i was referring to end users actually, not coders. supposedly it's alot more stable to run than IE. i'm rather clueless as to how netscape is coded myself.
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Post by phongn »

NS4 was coded a bit better, but trying to code for it was a nightmare if you tried to use CSS. Webpages that strictly adhere to the W3C DOM model will break on it -- pages that will gracefully render on NS3!

Plus, there was the whole "lets make our media plugins use Java!" thing when they already had perfectly usable native ones. The bookmark manager was also the most unintuitive thing I've ever used...
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Post by Crayz9000 »

I remember, in discussing a bug on Bugzilla a while back, a Mozilla developer remarking that the NS4 codebase was "hopelessly broken," or something to that extent.
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Post by phongn »

Crayz9000 wrote:I remember, in discussing a bug on Bugzilla a while back, a Mozilla developer remarking that the NS4 codebase was "hopelessly broken," or something to that extent.
Yes, which is why NS started over fresh. However, I think they should have kept the NS3 codebase and improved it when they went to NS4 (IIRC, they started over fresh there as well).
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Post by Drooling Iguana »

Sharp-kun wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote:there's also plenty of open source alternatives that can be used in place of microsoft operating systems. which would drastically reduce the cost of machines if they were packaged with them.
Yes, they can be. You still have the problems of chaging over. Can you imagine the horror of thousands of computer illiterate secretary's trying to use Linux?
Oh no! So they'd be forced to use an OS where all the most-used tasks (launching programs, etc) ate handled in pretty much the same way as they're used to (provided that they're using a reasonably user-friendly desktop environment) while being pretty much entirely virus- and spyware-free and keeping the vital system files safe from being inadvertantly fucked up? The horror... The horror...
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Post by Pu-239 »

Of course, there are the apps the the secretaries need, but that's what Winelib is for... just mandate recompilation (with fixes to fix compatibiity problems of course) of all major apps sold in the EU (or the company can pay codeweaver or somebody else to help port software). Then again, that costs money and is draconian, but oh well. Or remove copyright status from MS products (then again, WIPO wouldn't be too happy). Office runs on CXOffice and Wine too.

Anyway, a properly configured system should easily be used by secretaries, since computer illiterate people shouldn't be touching system settings anyway.

Also, it's not like switching all computers at once to Linux, only new ones.

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Post by Thinkmarble »

Actually there are a couple of towns and city using Linux and other open source products exclusivly.
Munich with 4 million citizen being the largest.

Personally I have made the experience that linux is easier to use and install then Windows.
The only thing which is more difficult is installing a program where no package for your package manager exist, and even then it is most of the time sufficient to type configure, make be done with it.
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Post by Drooling Iguana »

What applications would a typical secretary need that don't have equivalents available for Linux?
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Post by Spyder »

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:What exactly could they do to Microsoft if Bill Gates just said "Fuck you, we're not paying."?
Adopt China's piracy laws :twisted:
:D
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Post by Crayz9000 »

Drooling Iguana wrote:What applications would a typical secretary need that don't have equivalents available for Linux?
Microsoft Access, maybe.

There's no direct Linux equivalent IIRC, although there are a number of different ways you could get Access's functionality.
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Post by Hamel »

Crayz9000 wrote:
Drooling Iguana wrote:What applications would a typical secretary need that don't have equivalents available for Linux?
Microsoft Access, maybe.

There's no direct Linux equivalent IIRC, although there are a number of different ways you could get Access's functionality.
Openoffice.org has a spreadsheet app that seems to be just like Access, but I havn't tinkered with that part of the suite yet.
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Post by Crayz9000 »

The spreadsheet program (OOo Calc) is comparable to Microsoft Excel, not Access.

Like I said, with a bit of tinkering you can rig up a rough Access equivalent, but there doesn't seem to really be a direct equivalent.
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Post by 2000AD »

Spyder wrote:
BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:What exactly could they do to Microsoft if Bill Gates just said "Fuck you, we're not paying."?
Adopt China's piracy laws :twisted:
Which are?
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Post by Drooling Iguana »

2000AD wrote:
Spyder wrote:
BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:What exactly could they do to Microsoft if Bill Gates just said "Fuck you, we're not paying."?
Adopt China's piracy laws :twisted:
Which are?
Pretty much nonexistant, IIRC.
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