Federation shuttle craft vs TIE fighter

[Lancer]

You can not count NOT FIRING as a fucking miss.

You can when you're engaged in a Twilight Zone debate where someone uses hitrates as a basis of accuracy estimates without regard to size of target, range, or movement. And don't tell me you weren't doing that; this "100% accuracy" statement is a complete red-herring in any thread where TIE fighters are the target unless you think it actually applies.

would a widebeam phaser blast from the Delta Flyer make this a moot point?

[Sarevok]

Can starship phasers fire widebeams ?

[Lancer]

Can starship phasers fire widebeams ?

I'm not sure. Hence my asking the question in PST.

[Rogue 9]

Look, whether the Feds can get 100% accuracy on TIEs is irrelevant. TIEs are unshielded. Hit 'em a couple times and they will fly apart, whether there were misses scattered among the hits or no.

[Darth Wong]

Can starship phasers fire widebeams ?

I'm not sure. Hence my asking the question in PST.

Who the fuck cares? Even if they can, the geometry of the cone will obviously reduce the beam intensity to that of a warm urine stream.

[Darth Wong]

Look, whether the Feds can get 100% accuracy on TIEs is irrelevant. TIEs are unshielded. Hit 'em a couple times and they will fly apart, whether there were misses scattered among the hits or no.

Your oh-so-intelligent analysis neglects the fact that the TIE will be shooting back, dumb-ass. The question is who scores the kill, not whether it's possible to kill a TIE if you're guaranteed of scoring a hit before he does.

[Ender]

Lord Chaos at SB do a count a few years back to get hit rates? What did he turn up (I remember it was 70% for SW and ~20% for Stormtroopers but that is it)

[The Silence and I]

Assuming a recent make of shuttle, say Insurrection or later, and I give this to the shuttle.
Assuming an older make, I give this to the TIE.
Reasons:
Firepower- TIE fighters chasing the Falcon in the Hoth asteroid field manage to do all of no distinct damage to a rocky outcrop on a large asteroid; Vader wished the Falcon captured, but weapon yields still must exceed the Falcon's shield dissipitation rating or shooting would be pointless. I am not impressed, and would say TIEs cannot exceed 1-2 kt at an absolute max.
Shuttlecraft have survived repeated hits from their own weapons, and even capital ship weapons. Whether you agree with my statement on TIE firepower or not I believe it is fair to argue a late model shuttle can survive a few hits from a TIE's weapons.
Accuracy/range- ISDs manage to miss the Falcon at spit-ball range over Tatooine, a jamming-free zone, and the Imperials had no particular reason to want to miss long enough for the ship to escape; an ISD's fire control ought to be a tad better than a too-small-even-for-life-support fighter. Did I mention the ISDs that try to cut Han off don't open fire until they are < 2 km away, and the first one was steadily missing around 500 meters? On Bespine while Lando retrieves Luke from the weather vane three TIEs become visible on an intercept course, weapons silent. The Falcon turns around and heads towards them, ends up passing them with still no shots fired! The TIEs have to swing around to follow, and finally, after closing some more, they start firing. I believe assuming 100% hit rate against the shuttle is foolish, and this inaccuracy will increase the shuttle's survival time-if it has long enough to hit the TIE it is game over.
In TNG the Ent-D destroys a Ferengi missile on an intercept course with a wormhole. Worf has bare seconds to react, and manages to get off two rapid shots. The second hits (total firing time is <1 sec). This is from a ship that has 12 phaser banks and never uses more than one at time in standard combat, even against multiple opponents.
Now, fast forward a bit; the Ent-E can fire multiple phaser banks simultainiously, skim a Sona ship at several hundred meters per sec. and rapidly aquire targets along its surface, Picard's shuttle (Insurrection again) has greater maneuverability than older models and even has a torpedo launcher or two. Data's scout ship is just as maneuverable and very well armed. The Argo looks like an assault shuttle (would like to know its real capabilities), and the Feds actually have a ground vehicle with a weapon...the point being they're trying...
What I have attempted to illustrate is the increasing militance of the Federation, not only of capital ships but the small craft too. And, if the Ent-D can hit a distant missile moving accross its bow with very little warning I should think later Federation ships would find this easy. Clearly shuttles are not as capable as capital ships, but they are becoming very competent and I have no doubt, giving equally competent pilots, that a late model Federation shuttle craft with its nearly full weapon coverage can survive long enough to hit the TIE fighter, and get its kill.

[Trogdor]

I give this to the TIE fighter. There are probably several different kinds of shuttle, but I got the impression that, during the TOS and TNG eras at least, that their main purpose was really just ferrying stuff around during the situations where the transporters weren't useable. Sure, we've seen shuttles fire phasers, but I really don't think that's the norm.

I remember a TNG episode, the one where Riker falls for some member of an asexual race, where they're trying to figure out how big some anomaly is by shooting phasers at it and seeing where the beam disappears. Said asexual being asks him what weaponry the shuttle has and Riker replies with something like, "Usually none, but we put phasers on it for this mission."

Conclusion: the E-D normally carries no armed shuttles. This implies that the average shuttle's just a small, unarmed transport unit and could never stand up to any kind of combat vessel.

[Techno_Union]

I give it to the TIE. It is highly maneuverable and its weapons will break through the shuttle's shields and quickly destroy it. The shuttle, in my opinion, will not be able to keep up with the TIE or be able to shoot it. The best chance it would have is if the shuttle were equipped with a torpedo launcher so they could at least have a chance to it the TIE.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I give this to the TIE fighter. There are probably several different kinds of shuttle, but I got the impression that, during the TOS and TNG eras at least, that their main purpose was really just ferrying stuff around during the situations where the transporters weren't useable. Sure, we've seen shuttles fire phasers, but I really don't think that's the norm.

I remember a TNG episode, the one where Riker falls for some member of an asexual race, where they're trying to figure out how big some anomaly is by shooting phasers at it and seeing where the beam disappears. Said asexual being asks him what weaponry the shuttle has and Riker replies with something like, "Usually none, but we put phasers on it for this mission."

Conclusion: the E-D normally carries no armed shuttles. This implies that the average shuttle's just a small, unarmed transport unit and could never stand up to any kind of combat vessel.

This is TNG, after the Dominion war things changed a great deal. Don't ignore this fact.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I give it to the TIE. It is highly maneuverable and its weapons will break through the shuttle's shields and quickly destroy it. The shuttle, in my opinion, will not be able to keep up with the TIE or be able to shoot it. The best chance it would have is if the shuttle were equipped with a torpedo launcher so they could at least have a chance to it the TIE.

Shuttles are able to withstand ST capitol ship fire for a short period of time. A TIEs cannons can match that?

[Sarevok]

I give it to the TIE. It is highly maneuverable and its weapons will break through the shuttle's shields and quickly destroy it. The shuttle, in my opinion, will not be able to keep up with the TIE or be able to shoot it. The best chance it would have is if the shuttle were equipped with a torpedo launcher so they could at least have a chance to it the TIE.

Shuttles are able to withstand ST capitol ship fire for a short period of time. A TIEs cannons can match that?

TIE cannons can deliver kiloton level firepower which is same as Trek capital ship firepower.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I give it to the TIE. It is highly maneuverable and its weapons will break through the shuttle's shields and quickly destroy it. The shuttle, in my opinion, will not be able to keep up with the TIE or be able to shoot it. The best chance it would have is if the shuttle were equipped with a torpedo launcher so they could at least have a chance to it the TIE.

Shuttles are able to withstand ST capitol ship fire for a short period of time. A TIEs cannons can match that?

TIE cannons can deliver kiloton level firepower which is same as Trek capital ship firepower.

Kiloton ranges 1-999

IIRC the latest figures but ST capital ship firepower in the upper kiloton range.

IIRC TIEs are in the tens....

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Shuttles are able to withstand ST capitol ship fire for a short period of time. A TIEs cannons can match that?

TIE cannons can deliver kiloton level firepower which is same as Trek capital ship firepower.

Kiloton ranges 1-999

IIRC the latest figures but ST capital ship firepower in the upper kiloton range.

IIRC TIEs are in the tens....

Wasn't it, ST capital TORPEDO firepower was in the upper kiloton range, and thus phasers are probably less?

[Stark]

I wish people would stop mentioning ST hits on fast-moving missiles in this debate. It's *delta* v that matters here; and torps etc have jack shit. They're not speeding up, slowing down, turning etc; fighters do this sort of thing all the time. Saying you can hit a missile at short notice is the same as saying they can hit a rock at short notice; both objects on predicatable, unchanging vectors.

[Connor MacLeod]

Shuttles are able to withstand ST capitol ship fire for a short period of time. A TIEs cannons can match that?

Why are you assuming that they use the same output against shuttles that they use against capital ships, exactly?

TIE cannons can deliver kiloton level firepower which is same as Trek capital ship firepower.

Kiloton ranges 1-999

IIRC the latest figures but ST capital ship firepower in the upper kiloton range.

We see the Falcon getting hit by weapons fire from an ISD, but that doesnt mean that it can shrug off multi-gigaton bolts. (Same might be said for say, the queen's yacht.)

IIRC TIEs are in the tens....

Depends on the grade of weapon partly, but more on the rate of fire. Ties probably pump out some tens to hundreds of terawatts worth of firepower.

[Sarevok]

TIE cannons can deliver kiloton level firepower which is same as Trek capital ship firepower.

Kiloton ranges 1-999

IIRC the latest figures but ST capital ship firepower in the upper kiloton range.

IIRC TIEs are in the tens....

Wasn't it, ST capital TORPEDO firepower was in the upper kiloton range, and thus phasers are probably less?

Photon torpedoes were mentioned to be 200 isotons in Voyger. If an isoton is equal to a kiloton that would make photon torpedoes 200 kiloton.

[Connor MacLeod]

isoton = 1 ton of TNT.

*runs for the hills before the conflagration starts*

[Kamakazie Sith]

isoton = 1 ton of TNT.

*runs for the hills before the conflagration starts*

Blasphemy! Kill him...

[Sarevok]

isoton = 1 ton of TNT.

*runs for the hills before the conflagration starts*

That would make photon torpedo yields only 200 tons. Trek weapons must be pretty weak then.

[Lord of the Farce]

One way of working out the weapons and shields numbers is to:
-Look at the Pegasus estimates.
-Get info on the safe distances for the Enterprise's torps.
-Get the Enterprise's surface area measurements.
-Calculate energy absorbed by the Enterprise inside safe distances.

[The Silence and I]

I am somewhat partial to episodes like Relics, where the shields are known to take a quantifiable amount of energy, somewhere around 10-30 megatons at least, over a few hours, IIRC. And Pegasus is misleading I think, because it cannot be known how many torpedoes="most"
I say this because of Voyager-her class VI torpedoes were classified as having 200 isotons (whatever that is) by the Borg, yet individual torpedoes on the Enterprise-D are given ~20 isotons IIRC (I have not looked these up in quite a while, so I may make some errors). With this difference, Voyager could bitchslap the Ent-D, yet that makes no sense. However, antimatter must be transfered to a torpedo to arm it, and antimatter for this purpose is likely readied in storage facilities; the larger the facility the more torpedoes you can arm, independent of the number of physical casings. I believe this total adds to 200 isotons on Voyager, the combined total of several torpedoes. It could follow that the Ent-D uses the same system, and Riker meant they would need to use most of their combat antimatter to destroy the 'roid. If you think about it, the Ent-D never fires a great many torpedoes, ever. In an extended battle the support of two launchers capable of at least 6 simultaineous shots every few seconds would be welcome, yet they rarely take more than pot-shots. In Survivors, they open up with everything they had, and continue for only a few torpedo launches before apparently running out of stream--why? It must certainly have occured to them that minor but ultimately useful shield damage may not immediately register on sensors, they should have continued firing, but I propose their Alpha strike was used up.
so, in Pegasis it would follow that destroying the asteroid would deplete their combat-ready torpedoes significantly. With a Romulan Warbird in the area you don't want to do that. However many torpedo casings you have left they will not do much good without warheads.

[Phyre]

A TNG Shuttle vs. a Standard TIE Fighter = Fighter wins. TIEs carry very very very low shielding, minus the Interceptor, which has none. But they still carry, in the ST universe, powerful lasers. So Firepower and Manuverability go to the TIE, while Shields go to the TNG Shuttle. Gotta say, the Shuttle could only last but so long.

[Ghost Rider]

Sigh....

Read it and understand why

Thread locked.