How did you enter ST vs SW debate?

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2004-03-27 10:21pm

As an addendum...
I didn't really focus on this board till an internal fracture within the dg community over splitting the galaxy itno multiple servers pissed me off to the point that i left leaving me enough time to properly focus on this board.

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2004-03-28 02:27am

I was always a big fan of star wars right all the way back to when I was a child of about 5 or 6. I remember I used to always want to get toys for it but at that time (1988) the Star Wars toys were no longer being sold. Fast forward to when I was about 12, Star Wars micro machines were just starting to come out and I got a kickass box set that had every major ship from the movies, I saw they had some tech stats on the back of the box and that really interested me at the time (They were very brief and wrong about some things like the SSD size being 8km but I was still young and didn’t know any better of course).

Then around when I was 13, I had a friend who was a pretty big Star Trek fan. I remember getting into an argument with him about an ISD vs the Enterprise and it ended up with me "winning" the argument after whipping out my Star Wars Imperial Technical Journal magazine I had just bought recently at the time. I pointed out with large emphasis the "60 HEAVY Turbolasers and Ion cannons" it said the ISD had, and that because they were "Heavy" and had lots of them that they would just overwhelm the Enterprise.

He sort of conceded the argument but then brought out the whole "But the Borg cube would win!!" argument and I ended up bringing up the SSD and said that because it was so huge at "8 kilometers long!!" that it could just crash right through the cube like a spear even if its weapons weren’t powerful enough.

Flash forward to about 1997 when I was in high school. One of the Sci-fi mags I bought (I think it was called "Invasion!") had a GCS vs ISD article in it and I got pissed off at it because they ended up coming down to saying that the Enterprise would win because "It should be able to deliver more damage in a shorter amount of time" since its firepower was focused into a few larger beam weapons and big torpedoes while the ISD had it all spread out into a bunch of "smaller weapons". At the time I unfortunately found myself agreeing with that because it seemed to make perfect sense based on visuals (man was I a moron or what?), but even still, I simply could not accept that the ISD would lose since it had TIE fighters and TIE bombers to deploy for support and the article never even mentioned those.

For a few more years I basically figured that an ISD would win in a fight with a GCS but only if it got the first shots of the fight and also only if it had TIEs and Bombers for support.

Then in late 2001, I stumbled across Mike’s site, it was the first time I had ever bothered looking for “vs” stuff online and it was the first big site I came across. It was a HUGE wake up call obviously and I felt so energized and giddy at first after finding out just how powerful Star wars really was and I also couldn’t believe what an ignorant idiot I had been because the clues and information was always right their in front of me but I just never looked at it properly because of my naiveté and ignorance to proper science and logical reasoning at the time.

In early 2002 I had been lurking space battles for awhile and posted in a few debates and then I joined up with the SD.net forums when Mike first opened them. The rest is history.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-03-28 05:09am

I found an article on SD.net in a magazine. That is how I found this site and discovered the versus debate.

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 2004-03-28 11:59am

my's was a outgrowth of my b5 versus DSN debates at tigerclaws, which later led me to brian's site and then to mike's sites, I was a bit pissed at meeting a real fanatic trekkie and finding this and poe's site was then very sweet to savor.

That was how was hooked to this debates, though I had been losing interest lately.

Macunaima · Post by **Macunaima** » 2004-03-28 01:14pm

Newbie making his SD.net debut on this message.

I first found references about ST vs. SW debates while looking for general info about Star Trek. I think it was 1998 or 1999, if I recall correct. One of those references was SD.net, and since then, I came here as an occasional visitor, and after the forum started, more often as a lurker. Last Monday, I finnaly sign in on the forum.

Most coincidentally, 3 days ago a major debate about "UFP vs. Empire" broke on in a local Trek forum where I’m a member, and this one was my first engagement as a direct participant on a vs debate. The background that I had as a longtime reader of SD.net and others sources helped me a lot, but I have to say that it is being a crude debate in contrast with, let's say, a typical SD.net debate. There, several trekkers are still making claims like "The Empire only has lasers", "Their ships cannot travel much faster than the speed of light", "They don’t have shields", "Their tecnology is crappy", and so forth. Besides, they almost never back up their claims with evidence or any other support, and they really want their claims to be accept by their face value.

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2004-03-28 11:16pm

I think it would be interesting to here Wongs story of why and how he originally came into the "vs" world.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-03-29 12:02am

Mike entered the debate around 1997 IIRC.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-03-29 12:04am

Lord Poe wrote:Oh, lessee....

I went to a few sci-fi conventions when I was younger, and noticed that Trekkies would sit in circles on the ground laughing at how the Enterprise would kick an ISD's ass, Battlestar Galactica, etc. I was disappointed that something like a Star Destroyer from my favorite film would be so weak against Kirk's Enterprise. But the Trekkies insisted it was true; and they made documentation from the epiodes to prove it.

About 1995, I started reading Usenet groups, and my first stop was rec.arts.starwars. Then I learned this was a largely abandoned group, and everyone moved to rec.arts.scifi.starwars.misc, or RASSM. Soon after, a dozen or so Trek newsgroups cross-posted to the SW group, and everyone was arguing who was the best.

I wished the Star Destroyers were more powerful, to shut these Trekkies up, then, a wonderful thing happened. Some guy named Stephen Cumblidge began arguing for SW, and pointed out that the ISD was MUCH more powerful than the E-D by calculating the very first asteroid calcs. Then he pointed to the 400GW quote from Survivors, and DS9's "By Inferno's Light" which showed the Starfleet couldn't escape a supernova if Bajor's sun exploded. That caused as much of a shit-storm back then as the AOTC:ICS did!

Shortly after, Robert Brown posted to RASSM about his Millennium Falcon page, and I was completely blown away. I became a contributor to his page, and he told me about a friend of his that had a Technical Commentaries site. Curtis' site was amazing, and I forwarded him Stephen's asteroid calcs. He refined them, and Mike Wong did as well, and became a contributor to Curtis' site. Stephen Cumblide fell off the face of the Earth shortly after that. I started posting long passages from Curtis Saxton's site, which enraged the Trekkies even more. I started noticing Mike Wong about that time, and I began really getting into the debates about 1996, and battled the first of many Trekkie enemies like Doug Fortunato, Mike Dicenso, James Grady Ward, and Daniel L. Taylor; themselves Darkstar idiots in their own time.

RASSM and many of the Trek groups got tired of the cross-posting, and someone formed alt.startrek.vs.starwars. I was so fascinated by these guys like Curtis and Mike and Stephen with degrees and college classes taking this stuff as serious debate, that I didn't want it lost to the ravages of time, so I started my website about 1997, with "best of" battle postings from RASSM and earlier. Even a former Trekkie enemy, Mike Dicenso, sent me his copies of TNG and Ds9 episodes on tape that aided in building the website! (I think that truce was short lived. I understand he doesn't have kind words for me these days). Cronan Thompson began blasting the Trekkies with hilarious results about that time too.

Yes, I've fought them all, even Timothy Jones, and Timeout, and Scottty.

Anyway, the rest is history!

In other words, ,you're an old fossil

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-03-29 12:27am

I actually didnt start "jumping in" to the STvsSw debate initially.. Back in 1998 or so I stumbled across some of the major SW technical pages on the net: SD.net, SWTC, Turbolaser commentaries (which at that time was still owned and operated by Brian, and long before he started Babtech-onthe.net), Wayne's site (Which reminds me Wayne, wasn't there some "Emperor" guy you'd mentioned back then.. I remember alot of silly images from there.. Wayne's site has always had this televangelistic flair to it

) and of course, Robert Brown's site. A year or two later I believe I started at spacebattles (though I wasn't strictly a ST vs SW debator.. I largely left Trek alone focusing more on SW and B5... I'm one of those who is most intimately familiar with the Rabid Fiver contingent there..

) I also posted on TL Commentaries when it had a "debate slate" - a few like Cyborg Stan, Marina, Phong, and Ted C could remember that I think...)

Gradually I became more acquainted with Brian, and through him the others (Mike, Wayne, Curtis, Robert, etc.) , and contributed in various ways (Much of it was "Behind the scenes".) I also became acquainted with a great many other debators like Publius and Mad and Evil S'tan (who goes by Darth Physbod) and others from SB. I never posted (much) at ASVS, but I got to know a good many of the people there informally, (such as Durandal, Wilkens, etc.) I also spent a small stint at Robert Brown's boards (where another friend of mine, Andrew Tse, was a member I believe and is perhaps one of the least well known but still fundamentally essential contributors to SW analysis) When Mike started the board I was a bit slow to join but I am one of the earlier members.

Compared to alot of the ASVSers, or Mike or Wayne, I'm not as much as a "veteran", but I can say "I was there" and that I have made my marks, small as they may be

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-03-29 03:48am

Connor MacLeod wrote:In other words, ,you're an old fossil

I'm a Vet, not a Fossil!

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-03-29 03:54am

Connor MacLeod wrote:(Which reminds me Wayne, wasn't there some "Emperor" guy you'd mentioned back then.. I remember alot of silly images from there.. Wayne's site has always had this televangelistic flair to it )

Ah yes, Emperor Montes!
Yeah, Ray always though the whole thing was silly, and still does. So I put up a few of his quotes into my database early on.

Did you see my Ray Montes parody page?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-03-29 05:16am

Lord Poe wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:In other words, ,you're an old fossil
I'm a Vet, not a Fossil!

What's that? I couldn't hear you over the creaking of your joints

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-03-29 05:17am

Lord Poe wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:(Which reminds me Wayne, wasn't there some "Emperor" guy you'd mentioned back then.. I remember alot of silly images from there.. Wayne's site has always had this televangelistic flair to it )
Ah yes, Emperor Montes!
Yeah, Ray always though the whole thing was silly, and still does. So I put up a few of his quotes into my database early on.

Did you see my Ray Montes parody page?

Nope. Its hilarious as hell (he looks like a really cool guy). I'm not quire sure who he is though - a friend of yours? He looks like maybe he did some of that makeup/costuming stuff you did (If I remember some of your page correctly.)

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-03-29 07:27am

Connor MacLeod wrote: Compared to alot of the ASVSers, or Mike or Wayne, I'm not as much as a "veteran", but I can say "I was there" and that I have made my marks, small as they may be

Look at it this way, Mad and myself, we only were able to defeat Rvalencia. You.... you broke him.

Actually, just out of curiousity, what do you guys use to look at ASVS? I'm looking for a newsgroup reader other than Outlook Express(which I once used to lurk . I even witnessed part of the final Solution, although I didn't know what it was at the time)

And don't tell me Deja. I need something that can decode and encode pics.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-03-29 12:45pm

PainRack: I use Xnews.

As for my introduction, I did it in a few AOL message boards for a short time, and then I stumbled across ASVS.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-03-29 02:56pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:I also posted on TL Commentaries when it had a "debate slate" - a few like Cyborg Stan, Marina, Phong, and Ted C could remember that I think...)

Yep, I remember that one. Wasn't it the Dreambook-based guestbook-as-a-messageboard thing?

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-03-29 03:58pm

I have been lurking here off-and-on for the last year and a half.

First, I spent my time online looking for pictures of B5, ST and SW ships (I draw and make kitbashed models. When I find the time and money I'll put some pictures up). That lead me to places like babtech and Tigerclaw's site, where I wound up reading the debates.

I used to be one of those guys who believed that ST was stronger because of shields, but then I read some of the more researched posts and looked up some of the names thrown around out there, like Mike Wong, Curtis Saxton and Brian Young. That's how I found SD.net.

I find the use of science refreshing from the debates I remember reading in 1995-6, when I was a high-school Fiver on the net to read the latest B5 spoilers. There was no objectivity back then.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-03-29 05:06pm

phongn wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:I also posted on TL Commentaries when it had a "debate slate" - a few like Cyborg Stan, Marina, Phong, and Ted C could remember that I think...)
Yep, I remember that one. Wasn't it the Dreambook-based guestbook-as-a-messageboard thing?

Yes indeedy. I also remember Andrew Tse (whom I mentioned) posted on there, if you remember. In fact, alot of those well known Debate slate folks also went on to join Babtech.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-03-29 05:06pm

PainRack wrote: Look at it this way, Mad and myself, we only were able to defeat Rvalencia. You.... you broke him.

You mean the time I made him swear?

Actually, just out of curiousity, what do you guys use to look at ASVS? I'm looking for a newsgroup reader other than Outlook Express(which I once used to lurk . I even witnessed part of the final Solution, although I didn't know what it was at the time)

And don't tell me Deja. I need something that can decode and encode pics.

Google. If I were that in-depth to ASVS, I'd probably use something else.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-03-29 05:22pm

I randomly typed in W W W . S T A R D E S T R O Y E R . N E T one day.

Really.

Done me a world of good.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-03-29 05:58pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
PainRack wrote: Look at it this way, Mad and myself, we only were able to defeat Rvalencia. You.... you broke him.
You mean the time I made him swear?

You broke the AI!

Connor MacLeod wrote:Yes indeedy. I also remember Andrew Tse (whom I mentioned) posted on there, if you remember. In fact, alot of those well known Debate slate folks also went on to join Babtech.

I remember that, but Dreambook was really a horrid format for a message board.

mauldooku · Post by **mauldooku** » 2004-03-29 09:05pm

I accidentally clicked a link from google onto Poe's page. From time to time, I'd check back, silently laughing at how pathetic the people were who spent time on writing and debating these things were.

Then I realize that I was hooked on sci-fi debates

playloud · Post by **playloud** » 2004-03-29 09:52pm

I was just looking up Star Destroyers one day, and I happened to stumble onto this site. Being both a Trek and Wars fan, I was interested. I don't agree with the whole 200 gigaton thing, but it is in the book which Lucasfilm calls canon, so I won't debate that here.

I knew before I came here that the Empire could beat the UFP pretty easy. They have so many more ships, and they are more powerful. However, I think too many people here think that SW is way more powerful than it is. When I hear about SW fighters defeating ST capitol ships, I just roll my eyes. I view Sovereign Class Starships about equal to a Marauder Corvette (with a Galaxy Class Starship being a little more powerful than a CR90 Corellian Corvette). However, there are only a few Sovereign and Galaxy class ships in Starfleet, and the Empire would have no trouble sending in Star Destroyers to take care of them.

So there you have it. I came in believing SW had the greater fleet, but I disagree with how unbalanced most of the people here believe the battle really is.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-29 11:55pm

playloud wrote:When I hear about SW fighters defeating ST capitol ships, I just roll my eyes.

You must not have noticed the giant Can O' Whoop-Ass that that Slave-1 can unleash when the mood strikes its owner.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2004-03-30 12:00am

When we first got a computer in 1995, my dad purchased two games at the same time. A football game (Front Page Sports: Football Pro, I believe) and X-Wing: Collector's CD-ROM. Before, I knew some about Star Wars, but after that I started being more and more of a fan.

Eventually, we got the Internet. It was '98/'99 when I started doing some web searches for Star Wars stuff... First I found the "Redshirts Vs. Stormtroopers Grudgematch"... then I found SWTC, ASVS, and SD.n. I lurked ASVS a bit, but didn't really do anything. I had a few skirmishes on various boards. There was a debate with rvalencia on DescentBB (I think rvalencia joined the DBB just to enter that debate; must've been infected by that virus from Descent after that point).

The DBB debate didn't go too well... I was a pretty rabid Warsie. Though nobody knew what they were doing anyway. So I ended up claiming an X-wing's 60 GJ lasers could stand a chance against the Enterprise-D's 400 GW shields. The main refutation was that there was no way an X-wing could pump out 60 GJ per shot.

I also engaged in one over at Volition's BB, when they had one.. that one went weirdly, as well. Everyone just knew that FreeSpace ships could take out Star Wars ships. But they claimed Star Trek ships would mop up the less advanced FreeSpace ships (that was unexpected, seeing as it was the FreeSpace's home board).

Anyway, I went on to sign up on Spacebattles in Dec '99 and got more serious into versus debating there. I signed up for SD.n soon after it went online. And then there's now, where I'm too busy to do too much other than lurk, but still pop in every now and then.