kojikun wrote:Well, okay he let it happen because he's a gimp. He still let it happen. u.u
What a tool.
If you blame Bush for "letting it happen," then you have to place equal blame on Clinton for passing up the chance to take him dozens of times.
OLRIK SAYS: I've had enough of constantly reading the exact same shit thread after thread. If you (I mean it generically) have nothing to contribute other than the 1000th "OH YEAH? Clinton/Kerry were/are worse!" thread hijack, then refrain from posting it, or it will be split and closed as the spam it is.
If you blame Bush for "letting it happen," then you have to place equal blame on Clinton for passing up the chance to take him dozens of times.
You are such a tool. First, name one chance Clinton had to take bin Laden that he passed up. Second, how is that at all relevant to BUSH'S OWN INCOMPETANCE?
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If you blame Bush for "letting it happen," then you have to place equal blame on Clinton for passing up the chance to take him dozens of times.
You are such a tool. First, name one chance Clinton had to take bin Laden that he passed up. Second, how is that at all relevant to BUSH'S OWN INCOMPETANCE?
Dammit Hemlock, I really wish you hadn't taken the bait like that. The last thing we need is another Clinton discussion in a thread about Bush.
I'm starting to wonder if this is concentrated effort. 'QUICK! A thread about Bush's failings! Quick, send someone to make a comment about Clinton and derail it!'
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If you blame Bush for "letting it happen," then you have to place equal blame on Clinton for passing up the chance to take him dozens of times.
You are such a tool. First, name one chance Clinton had to take bin Laden that he passed up.
The Sudanese government offered to hand him over to the US when they kicked AQ out their country. Clinton didn't take them up on their offer because the US "didn't have enough evidence to hold him".
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SirNitram wrote:I'm starting to wonder if this is concentrated effort. 'QUICK! A thread about Bush's failings! Quick, send someone to make a comment about Clinton and derail it!'
I'm thinking it is a concentrated effort. Hanlon's Razor (the quote i've been spamming at the conspiracy theorists in this and other threads) probly still applies, but it's a bit lacking in the face of large amounts of evidence.
If you blame Bush for "letting it happen," then you have to place equal blame on Clinton for passing up the chance to take him dozens of times.
You are such a tool. First, name one chance Clinton had to take bin Laden that he passed up.
The Sudanese government offered to hand him over to the US when they kicked AQ out their country. Clinton didn't take them up on their offer because the US "didn't have enough evidence to hold him".
You see, little one, there are these things called 'laws' in existance. They require something called 'due process'. Despite the best efforts of Ashcroft, they still apply to everyone, not just American-born citizens. Not everyone is so cavalier about violating these things.
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SirNitram wrote:You see, little one, there are these things called 'laws' in existance. They require something called 'due process'. Despite the best efforts of Ashcroft, they still apply to everyone, not just American-born citizens. Not everyone is so cavalier about violating these things.
Eh? I didn't say Clinton should have grabbed him. Perhaps I should have included that in my original post...
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SirNitram wrote:You see, little one, there are these things called 'laws' in existance. They require something called 'due process'. Despite the best efforts of Ashcroft, they still apply to everyone, not just American-born citizens. Not everyone is so cavalier about violating these things.
Eh? I didn't say Clinton should have grabbed him. Perhaps I should have included that in my original post...
Given that the Bushite chorus that continually goes 'CLINTON! CLINTON!' has been saying just that, yes.
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I'm guessing you missed the little word "Equal" in my sentence.
(In case you missed your vocabulary back in 8th grade, equal means putting blame on BOTH of them)
Clinton had a chance to get him from Sudan, and passed it up. The USAF was ready to strike at where OBL was at the time, but Clinton was too busy watching golf. Clinton had sent troops to find him, but said only to find him "Alive or not find him at all," therefore constraining the troops in what they could do.
You can't blame Bush for his shortcomings on 9/11 without blaming Clinton as well.
Nathan F wrote:I'm guessing you missed the little word "Equal" in my sentence.
OK, conceded. I'll rephrase it:
Posts consisting of "Clinton/Kerry were/are equally bad or worse" made in a thread which only concerns Bush are thread hijacks and will likely be split if they're not directly relevant to the issue at hand.
Republicans can be so fucking stupid. Do they have a circuit breaker in their head that says "Democrat President/Presidential candidate/former President" whenever one of theirs has something bad said about them?
When will they fucking learn that what Clinton or Kerry or whomever did doesn't fucking change, at all, what Bush does?
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HemlockGrey wrote:
You are such a tool. First, name one chance Clinton had to take bin Laden that he passed up.
The Sudanese government offered to hand him over to the US when they kicked AQ out their country. Clinton didn't take them up on their offer because the US "didn't have enough evidence to hold him".
You see, little one, there are these things called 'laws' in existance. They require something called 'due process'. Despite the best efforts of Ashcroft, they still apply to everyone, not just American-born citizens. Not everyone is so cavalier about violating these things.
All Clinton would have had to do is secretly lift the EO forbidding assassinations in this one instance.
What Clinton could have told the Sudanese 'You don't have to turn him over to us, just let us know where he'll be on a specific day, and we'll take care of the rest.'. And then promptly dispatched a few gunships or a Spec Ops team to finish the job.
Assassination of an enemy leader outside the USA might fall under the legitimate powers of the President. I'm not sure though. Perhaps someone did run this option past the lawyers and were told it's illegal.
Though it's worth noting that Roosevelt personally approved the killing of Admiral Yamamoto during WW2 and that it took Gerald Ford (IIRC) to issue an order forbidding assassinations of US enemies outside the US.
Of course hindsight is 20/20 and the political ramifications of suspending the EO even in this one instance would be enormous if it got out, even if it was legal, and I'm sure some self-righteous SOB would convince himself that it should get out.
I really can't blame Clinton for not going this route.
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Isn't this some sort of logical fallacy? Tu Quoque, I think.
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Nathan F wrote:You can't blame Bush for his shortcomings on 9/11 without blaming Clinton as well.
WHY THE FUCK NOT?
This is like saying that you can't point out the shortcomings of Ted Bundy without talking about other serial killers too. How is it relevant in any way?
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I'm pretty sure he's going to mention something along the lines of the shit Condie Rice was spewing last night on 60 minutes, that Bush inherited the policies from Clinton blah blah blah.
Richard Clark, however, said that the Clinton administration made anti-terrorism a top priority and that Bush did not really follow through on those policies or did it in an extremely half assed manner, and that the policies themselves were fine.
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Glocksman wrote:Though it's worth noting that Roosevelt personally approved the killing of Admiral Yamamoto during WW2 and that it took Gerald Ford (IIRC) to issue an order forbidding assassinations of US enemies outside the US.
Of course hindsight is 20/20 and the political ramifications of suspending the EO even in this one instance would be enormous if it got out, even if it was legal, and I'm sure some self-righteous SOB would convince himself that it should get out.
It was actually a ban on killing foreign leaders during peacetime, and it was enacted because of bad press from attempts on Castro's life. It does not apply during wartime, and would not apply to Osam bin Laden in any case since he is not a head of state, so I don't know why you're treating it as a factor. Hell, weren't you paying attention back when we thought Saddam had been killed in a bombing raid? It doesn't require any sort of "suspension" for us to things like that.
Sudan also wanted sanctions lifted, IIRC. Not to mention that the Clinton Administration thought that Sudan was fibbing and didn't actually have bin Laden in custody.
Nathan F wrote:You can't blame Bush for his shortcomings on 9/11 without blaming Clinton as well.
WHY THE FUCK NOT?
This is like saying that you can't point out the shortcomings of Ted Bundy without talking about other serial killers too. How is it relevant in any way?
Because, assuming that Bush screwed it up, then so did Clinton, which so many seem to gloss over. You can blame Bush, sure, but blame *also* has to be placed on Clinton.
Nathan F wrote:I'm guessing you missed the little word "Equal" in my sentence.
OK, conceded. I'll rephrase it:
Posts consisting of "Clinton/Kerry were/are equally bad or worse" made in a thread which only concerns Bush are thread hijacks and will likely be split if they're not directly relevant to the issue at hand.
Much better.
Just on a side note, that first post wasn't really directed towards you.
Nathan F wrote:You can't blame Bush for his shortcomings on 9/11 without blaming Clinton as well.
WHY THE FUCK NOT?
This is like saying that you can't point out the shortcomings of Ted Bundy without talking about other serial killers too. How is it relevant in any way?
Because, assuming that Bush screwed it up, then so did Clinton
And that is relevant to Bush screwing it up ... how? If I say "hey fuckup, you just smashed into the back of my car", do you get out and say "oh yeah? Well my next-door neighbour did that too, so there!"
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Exonerate wrote:Sudan also wanted sanctions lifted, IIRC. Not to mention that the Clinton Administration thought that Sudan was fibbing and didn't actually have bin Laden in custody.
From what I've heard, their was a guy who claimed he was acting on behalf of Sudan in offering up OBL. But the US is prohibited from doing this type of deal. So, the US checked with Sudan and they claimed that their was no offer made. As it is the guy that offered the deal was a man who had a lot of money tied up in Sudan, so was eager to see the US lift sanctions on this terrorist sponsor. Was their a real deal out there? I'd like to hear that claim proven by Clinton staffers or Sudan. So far it seems more like the other myths people desperately want to tie to Clinton.
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