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Dahak wrote:A luxury car is one that not every idiot on the streets buys and drives. Given the scores of people driving BMW, Mercedes, Audis here, they are not luxury. And sorry if it hurts your feelings, but German cars are among the top-selling ones here, being Germany, not much of American cars.

So like I said "It's a luxury car as long as it isn't German, unless it's Porsche". Of course German cars are going to be more common in Germany. Still not seeing how you figure Porsche even makes luxury cars at all. Way to ignore that one.

Dahak wrote:It is not my problem that you seem to fight against a perceived minority complex or something when it comes down to other car "countries" than the USA...

Which is why you've been harping on about "ugly american cars" this whole time? Pot/Kettle=Black, assclown.

Dahak wrote:And an M5 is not middle-sized. I could have said Mercedes C-class, but well...

There you go playing Move The Goal Posts again, you dishonest douchebag. You said "Mid-Class", not mid-size. The 5 Series are mid-class, they are not BMW's top of the line luxury car by any means.

Dahak wrote:while a BMW 5 and 7 are upper class with the 7 touching "luxury" cars.

Ok, make up your fucking mind, dumbass. Every the 5 series is a "luxury" car or it is not "luxury" car.

Fuck, why am I even asking you. BMW says it's a "luixury sports sedan" so that's what it is, regardless of what your snobbish little notions are.

aerius wrote:

salm wrote:I don´t know much about cars but since when is an M5 a midclass BMW?
A midclass is more like something with a 3 in it not the ones with the 5s.

BMW has a 1, 3, 5, 6, and 7 series, so 5 series cars would be in the midclass.

Well, it might be in the middle of the BMW range but it´s still higher class compared to cars from other companies if you ask me.

I mean by that logic the Porsche Boxter would be a lower class car because it´s the crapiest car Porsche produces.

Meh, however, other German cars i´d consider luxury are The upper class Mercedes like the S-Klasse and the Maybach or the large BMWs like the 7er and things like that.

Now the truely hilarious part is Dahak started off going on about how the interior of the ZR-1 looked "cheap" for a $100,000 car, he then brings up an $82,000 luruxy sports sedan as being an example of what a good iterior looks like, then essentially says that same luxury sedan is cheap, and then brings up ginormously expensive shit like Bentley?

Kid moves goal post much I'm not even sure what fucking sport he trying play anymore.

Fuel economy for the ZR1's out: 14/20.

I don't know how to dress my links

Let's compare that to the Ferrari 599: 11/15.
Now the Mercedes SLR: 12/16.
Now the Aston Martin DBS: 11/17.

Get the idea?

I find it amusing he didn't give any sort of response to my post. I guess he couldn't tell it was aimed at him as well as all the other sods who are compensating for their short-comings by driving around a car that looks pretty but isn't as functional as a less pretty car. In their opinion, anyway. Next time I guess I should sit and quote every little snippet so that he sees his name and can tell that he's included among the people I'm talking to.

I don't think that it's necessarily illegitimate to compare the interior of a $90k car to a $100k car. The Corvette interior isn't as nice, and that might affect a buyer's decision. I personally think that's an idiotic reason not to buy a sportscar.

The equivalent 2 door offering from BMW weighs what, a thousand pounds more? Compromises are made when designing cars and the Chevrolet has made the decision to put their development into lots of performance and they have succeeded.

I think ZE GERMANS should shut the fuck up, this interior looks fantastic.

OHH IT DOESN'T HAVE THE LITTLE RIMS OF CHROME ON EVERYTHING AND CONTRASTING COLOR STITCHING DURR HURR IT MUST BE A CHEAP INTERIOR.

Germans have always had an obnoxious unjustified sense of superiority about their overpriced cars. I just roll my eyes whenever I see a German talking smack about American cars; for many years they used to tout their "fine German hand craftsmen" in their advertisements, which was a nice way to spin-doctor the fact that their cars came off the line so shitty that they needed to be hand-tuned in order to meet spec.

Darth Wong wrote:Germans have always had an obnoxious unjustified sense of superiority about their overpriced cars. I just roll my eyes whenever I see a German talking smack about American cars; for many years they used to tout their "fine German hand craftsmen" in their advertisements, which was a nice way to spin-doctor the fact that their cars came off the line so shitty that they needed to be hand-tuned in order to meet spec.

Have you heard the basic design principle of German engineering?


"Never use one ton of large parts where five tons of small ones will do the same job"

Did you know the Germans (until very recently I believe) used to have special shops in their production facilities where they would take all the parts that didn't fit and assemble them into working systems. May the Gods have mercy on you if you bought one of the cars fitted with those; you'd never get spares to fit it.

I'd describe the interior of the Corvette (mine is practically identical to the ZR-1 illustrated above) as functional. The instruments, controls, switches etc are well placed and intuitive. One doesn't have to take ones eyes off the road to do things. It's so designed that everything one needs to drive is within easy reach. For a sports car, that's pretty close to the definition of perfection; everything one needs, where one needs it and nothing one doesn't need to get in the way.

Stuart wrote:Have you heard the basic design principle of German engineering?

"Never use one ton of large parts where five tons of small ones will do the same job"

I once had to deal with a set of German engineering drawings for some plastic injection tooling. Fifty E-size drawings for a single mould, and it wasn't even a particularly fancy mould. It was unbelievable, and not a single thing about this uniquely overcomplicated design would ever be detectable in the final product.

Darth Wong wrote: I once had to deal with a set of German engineering drawings for some plastic injection tooling. Fifty E-size drawings for a single mould, and it wasn't even a particularly fancy mould. It was unbelievable, and not a single thing about this uniquely overcomplicated design would ever be detectable in the final product.

That's been a constant theme in adopting German (and Swedish) weapons designs to civilized production methods. The Germans have this bizarre idea that complexity = efficiency. Their engineers are brought up on the concept of "add more parts; if its still works, it must be better".

Beautiful example is to field strip a Walther P-38 and a Tokarev TT-33 and look at the pile of bits. The TT-33 is superbly engineered in the true sense of the word; every part doies exactly what it is supposed to and if it can fulfill two functions at one it does so. The P-38 has lots of small bits that collect mud.

I think Ma Deuce has the right of it; Germans spend a lot of time designing the interior so the owner can admire it while waiting for the breakdown trucks.

The LS9 engine in the new ZR-1 has been certified to over 100,000 miles, and this is the case with all other engines in the Corvette lineup.

Corvettes are actually surprisingly tough and reliable, if you're crazy enough, you can even drive one across the Yukon on cratered gravel roads without killing it.

Darth Wong wrote:

Stuart wrote:Have you heard the basic design principle of German engineering?

"Never use one ton of large parts where five tons of small ones will do the same job"

I once had to deal with a set of German engineering drawings for some plastic injection tooling. Fifty E-size drawings for a single mould, and it wasn't even a particularly fancy mould. It was unbelievable, and not a single thing about this uniquely overcomplicated design would ever be detectable in the final product.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't massively increasing complexity generally frowned upon in engineering unless there's a benefit that far exceeds the increased potential for catastrophic failure?



So, when do we start hearing people piss and moan over Formula 1 interiors? Those things cost more than a dozen ZR1s, and yet the interior is even less aesthetically pleasing! Nevermind that Fomula 1s are race cars and put performance first. For that kind of money, it needs to be fuckable! (I'll quit with rubbing salt in the wound now, if you'd like.)

Napoleon the Clown wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't massively increasing complexity generally frowned upon in engineering unless there's a benefit that far exceeds the increased potential for catastrophic failure?

Yes. Common sense applies here. This is true even for software engineering, where there's no per-unit duplication cost; design, testing and maintenance costs escalate rapidly with complexity, so you avoid it where possible.

That said I do appreciate things like the Veyron, where the approach taken was just 'cram every single bit of technology possible into this car and finnish it to the highest possible standards, cost be damned'. It's in no way practical or good value, but it isn't really supposed to be, it's more like a piece of mechanical art.

Incidentally I did a little research on the new Corvette and I now agree that it's a very impressive achievement; it's a mass produced item that matches or exceeds the performance of numerous far more expensive, semi-hand-built cars. I do think the interior looks a bit cheaper, but I imagine there just wasn't the demand in the market to bother with a higher trim level - if the priorities of most Corvette drivers are like Stuart's.

As for Dahak, he exhibited this kind of behaviour in every debate I've seen him participate in - and I've yet to see him win one.

Napoleon the Clown wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't massively increasing complexity generally frowned upon in engineering unless there's a benefit that far exceeds the increased potential for catastrophic failure?

Yes. German engineering is horrendously overrated, and always has been. They once surveyed Japanese automotive engineers and asked them to rank the different nations' automotive industry engineering. Naturally, they ranked themselves first, which you can take however you want. But then, more importantly, they ranked America second, and Germany last.

Napoleon the Clown wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't massively increasing complexity generally frowned upon in engineering unless there's a benefit that far exceeds the increased potential for catastrophic failure?

Not if you are German. In German Engineering, complexity at all costs is an end in itself.

I do think the interior looks a bit cheaper, but I imagine there just wasn't the demand in the market to bother with a higher trim level - if the priorities of most Corvette drivers are like Stuart's.

I'd guess I'm pretty typical of the market the Corvette is aimed at - people who want a high performance car that can be driven in standard road conditions (by the way, there's no reason why a ZO6 can't be driven routinely and I see no basic reason why somebody shouldn't do the same with a ZR-1.) However, driving a very high perfomance vehicle in traffic is an art form that needs acquisition. Basically, if somebody drives around admiring the internal finish of fine Corinthian leather, they're going to kill themselves when the car gets ahead of them. In cars like teh Corvette, a functional interior makes sense. Having said that, I think GM could have done a better job on it but what they have done is certainly adequate.

Stuart wrote:I think Ma Deuce has the right of it; Germans spend a lot of time designing the interior so the owner can admire it while waiting for the breakdown trucks.

That, and the controls are often so complicated you have to look at it just to perform simple functions, especially with one of those "integrated" control systems like BMW's iDrive (do not ask me about the first and only time I tried using that abomination).

Besides, I don't know what's so appealing about German interiors anyway: Oh sure, the materials and craftsmanship are first-rate, but the design and and prevalence of the color black makes them feel like tombs.

Couldn't a person who'd normally afford a high priced german luxury car just 'gasp' spend less money on a corvette for performance and reliability and just get a custom interior?

Honestly I don't know what the, if any, ruckus would be about. My personal preference would be to get as much money put into that suckers performance, which requires the most stringent and precise engineering and maintenance for safety and performance concerns. Than later go to some really nice upholsterer and have them make custom seats for me.

That, and the controls are often so complicated you have to look at it just to perform simple functions, especially with one of those "integrated" control systems like BMW's iDrive (do not ask me about the first and only time I tried using that abomination).

Second-generation iDrive has been upgraded to "useful". Well, except the FM controls, those are still about as intuitive as trying to tie your shoelaces with chopsticks.

I'm going to rethink my opinion of the ZR1. I still think the interior is a failure, but I accept that this is largely due to personal taste, and shouldn't be a deal-breaking issue. I guess this idea flows partly from the fact that the motoring press is half-follow puts a great deal of stress on interiors and aesthetics, and partly because I mis-judged the public for the car. The third part is a healthy helping of chauvinism.

It's an interesting car.

Linky

Small update: At last, we have the ZR1's Nurburgring track time, which is 7:26.4 (apparently the fastest lap by any road-legal production car), beating the Nissan GT-R by 3 seconds, which shouldn't be surprising, because at $35 grand more expensive and with less weight and far more power under the hood, the ZR1 better be faster. This is a tad slower than the GT-R Spec-V's unofficial 7:25, though that car will probably end up costing at least as much as the ZR1.

I'm sure they can shave a few seconds off that time by flying in Jan Magnussen to do the driving like they did with the Z06.

aerius wrote:I'm sure they can shave a few seconds off that time by flying in Jan Magnussen to do the driving like they did with the Z06.

And/or do the lap under perfect weather conditions: according to the article, there was a strong headwind on the main straight when the ZR1 did it's official run.

Early road test impressions are in. Performance at least on par with a Porsche Carrera GT for a quarter of the price. And from the videos I'm seeing the engine sounds every bit as good as the LS7 in the Z06.

In regards to German engineering, Benz seems to have finally cleaned up their act with the latest models, especially the more expensive ones, so maybe so-called "German engineering" will start getting some respect back.

On the other hand, BMW, VW, and I think Audi are still keeping to the more recent definition of German engineering, which is to know your service people on a first name-basis.



In regards to the ZR1, the interior looks pretty decent for an American car (compared to something hideous like an Escalade). The steering wheel comes off a bit like a Porsche, but that's okay. And I'm not so sure about the parking brake being within passenger leg reach.

Nurburgring video of the 7:26.4 record lap. It's awesome.