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Connor MacLeod wrote:So what? As annoying as the shit Traviss does, she's hardly the all-encompassing evil some people make her out to be. She's an annoyance, but she's a minor irritant at worst. She's not really in a position to make any sweeping, destructive changes to SW - she can hardly overwrite every other author in the SW universe just because of her pet fetishes. B&B were in much more of a position to fuck over Star Trek, and they succesfully managed to do it for years.

The same is true of alot of the remnant trektards like Scooter or the clowns at SFJ - they talk big and try to make themselves out to be more important than they are, but in the end they're a fringe nuisance at worst, and best forgotten or ignored, rather than exaggerated to some epic menace (which is what they want to be, anyhow.)

The same can be said of people like Sarli.

And that's the noted part.

This is the scale of what many of the inept ST writers did. But all of the idiot writers combined are nothing compared to B&B who actually damaged the franchise to the point of where it is now.

So yes, in the end, we gripe and hate and dislike Traviss...but she's just something to gripe and moan. She's never going to destroy the franchise in any of the same effects that B&B did to Trek.

What we need is Zahn to come back. He trashed KJA and other crap that happened since his original Thrawn books in the Hand of Thrawn duology. He should rip into the bitch.

Chris OFarrell wrote:*points and laughs*

All the warsies back 10 years ago who snickered and laughed as Star Trek slowly died and became so horrible, before smirking and pointing to their vaunted Star Wars EU as a way of doing things RIGHT, with tight controls over content, continuity, quality and all that good shit.

I laugh in your general direction!

Oh please, Chris. Nothing can compare to the clusterfuck that is the Trek "EU", for lack of a better term. Or have you forgotten "Spock -Messiah!" or the KJAs of Trek literature, Sandra Mashak & Myrna Culbreath. Those two idiots, in every one of their stories, put Kirk in the feminine role, while Spock somehow always loses his Vulcan logic and turns into Conan the Barbarian.

The very sad thing about Trek continuity is what David Gerrold had to say about what is canon and what isn't:

Gerrold: Arguments about "canon" are silly. I always felt that Star Trek Animated was part of Star Trek because Gene Roddenberry accepted the paycheck for it and put his name on the credits. And DC Fontana -- and all the other writers involved -- busted their butts to make it the best Star Trek they could.

But this whole business of "canon" really originated with Gene's errand boy. Gene liked giving people titles instead of raises, so the errand boy got named "archivist" and apparently it went to his head. Gene handed him the responsibility of answering all fan questions, silly or otherwise, and he apparently let that go to his head.

That said, this is just pathetic. After reading the YodaKenobi review, I just felt ill. Yes, I actually felt gas building up in my stomach as I see one of my most treasured sci-fi franchises being destroyed before my eyes. Again.

How in the FUCKING HELL this BULLSHIT got past ANYONE who proofread it...

I mean Jesus CHRIST!

I agree WRT the YodaKenobi review. And I'm very surprised its still there. We "talifans" were edited for far less venom.

Hehehe! Look at the OS reaction.

I loved this tidbit:

jedipooh86 wrote:@ DagTa2 I'm going to agree with you most of the claimed bashing seemed accurate. When did the forums turn into some kind of fascist society. Iamtheskip simply stated his opinion on several occasion and never wavered from it drawing many people to his side of the argument. And was promptly banned from the site. I read nothing that read that would've offended me if I wouldve forced the Mando's into the the series. Surely there most be worst formus out there, with greater accusations than having a crush on Boba Fett. For all we know Kareen does have a crush on Boba. I personally think Tenel Ka is the baddest woman in the star wars galaxy.

Those filthy talifans!

This really troubles me: New York Times bestseller list: Paperback Mass-Market Fiction

Mange wrote:This really troubles me: New York Times bestseller list: Paperback Mass-Market Fiction

As they pointed out on TFN, people buy the brand. Lots of idiot SW fans read like battered wives; they'll forgive anything, hoping it will get better, as long as it has "Star Wars" on it

Lord Poe wrote:

Mange wrote:This really troubles me: New York Times bestseller list: Paperback Mass-Market Fiction

As they pointed out on TFN, people buy the brand. Lots of idiot SW fans read like battered wives; they'll forgive anything, hoping it will get better, as long as it has "Star Wars" on it

Hell, somewhere I have an article on HOW one reaches the NYT or any best sellers list, and I promise it's not a good honest sales marker, but projections of purchases. If I remember, the jist is literally the bookstores tell the amount they purchased, and THAT is used as the marker.

Still Wayne's point stands. I think of this in the same way of any popular fiction that was popular, and is now on the onus of the rabid fanbase. They(the rabid fanbase) believe it will get better, because it's always either something else or a "slump".

This is actually somewhat encouraging--members of TFN and even the OS seem to be coming around. The criticism is well deserved, but now a significant number of fans there are expressing it. YodaKenobi's review is absolutely shocking--just reading the review makes me angry about the book--and so far he seems to have gotten away with it. On the OS, too, DarkMoose banned one person for criticizing the book, but there was a LOT of discussion that occurred before that. I think that if this keeps up, LFL will start feeling the heat to hire competent writers who care about Star Wars rather than their own fanfic developments.

That's right, Karen, your drivel is no better than fanfic. I say this because your characters bear no resemblance to the real ones, except for the fact that they have the same names. In addition, like many bad fanfic writers, you use the main characters only to highlight the alleged awesomeness of your pet characters.

Master of Ossus wrote:...DarkMoose banned one person for criticizing the book...

Wait, what? You can get banned there for having an opinion the MODs don't like or agree with?

havokeff wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote:...DarkMoose banned one person for criticizing the book...

Wait, what? You can get banned there for having an opinion the MODs don't like or agree with?

Uh... yeah. Where have you been for the last 4 years? Dark Moose has a bad reputation on this board for a reason--he banned me after I called him on misquoting me, and of course their board doesn't have the option of giving you a review by a neutral moderator. So I haven't been back. Other users here have been banned for similarly having "aberrant" views in comparison with the OS board mods, which may have something to do with the fact that the OS boards spend most of their time fawning over every piece of EU they can get. Dark Moose has some sort of love affair with Traviss, too. That's been going on for a while.

Master of Ossus wrote:On the OS, too, DarkMoose banned one person for criticizing the book, but there was a LOT of discussion that occurred before that.

I can't say that I'm surprised given his history, but what did the review look like?

havokeff wrote:Wait, what? You can get banned there for having an opinion the MODs don't like or agree with?

You sure can. Have you been hiding under a rock?

EDIT 2.

Master of Ossus
Mange
This was the first board I posted on. I've posted here and there on a couple others since I joined here, but I have never been to any other Star Wars boards or really even read them. I've heard about people being banned, but I didn't think you could be banned for saying you didn't like something and giving your reasons why.

Basically everything I have learned about online culture I have learned from you assholes.

Mange wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote:On the OS, too, DarkMoose banned one person for criticizing the book, but there was a LOT of discussion that occurred before that.

I can't say that I'm surprised given his history, but what did the review look like?

It's still up. He basically says that the use of Mandos is pointless and detracts from the story, and criticizes Traviss' fetish for all things Mando at the expense of interesting things.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Mange wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote:On the OS, too, DarkMoose banned one person for criticizing the book, but there was a LOT of discussion that occurred before that.

I can't say that I'm surprised given his history, but what did the review look like?

It's still up. He basically says that the use of Mandos is pointless and detracts from the story, and criticizes Traviss' fetish for all things Mando at the expense of interesting things.

What the... That's just disgusting. The guy was only criticizing Traviss.

I certainly cannot see how he said anything that should have gotten him banned. The criticism was reasonable, even quite moderate by any objective standard. Nowhere did he insult anyone or any such thing.

havokeff wrote:Master of Ossus
Mange
This was the first board I posted on. I've posted here and there on a couple others since I joined here, but I have never been to any other Star Wars boards or really even read them. I've heard about people being banned, but I didn't think you could be banned for saying you didn't like something and giving your reasons why.

Basically everything I have learned about online culture I have learned from you assholes.

I started out on the TF.N before I came here. And I finally sunk my roots in here only because I got banned for scolding Charlemange the Moron for talking rubbish.

Charlemagne? Is he that turd who always went "Lightsaber of Truth". What a fucking dipshit.

havokeff wrote:Master of Ossus
Mange
This was the first board I posted on. I've posted here and there on a couple others since I joined here, but I have never been to any other Star Wars boards or really even read them. I've heard about people being banned, but I didn't think you could be banned for saying you didn't like something and giving your reasons why.

Basically everything I have learned about online culture I have learned from you assholes.

Educate yourself, young man!

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http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/swds/darkmo ... tines.html

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Ghost Rider wrote:

Lord Poe wrote:

Mange wrote:This really troubles me: New York Times bestseller list: Paperback Mass-Market Fiction

As they pointed out on TFN, people buy the brand. Lots of idiot SW fans read like battered wives; they'll forgive anything, hoping it will get better, as long as it has "Star Wars" on it

Hell, somewhere I have an article on HOW one reaches the NYT or any best sellers list, and I promise it's not a good honest sales marker, but projections of purchases. If I remember, the jist is literally the bookstores tell the amount they purchased, and THAT is used as the marker.

Still Wayne's point stands. I think of this in the same way of any popular fiction that was popular, and is now on the onus of the rabid fanbase. They(the rabid fanbase) believe it will get better, because it's always either something else or a "slump".

I've heard somewhere that alot of the "best seller" list is usually prearranged or dealt with "behind the scenes" so the popularity can be somewhat fixed, yeah....

I will also note that I don't see alot of obvious "names" there, anything big. No big novels tied to a movie, no big name writers in a partticular genre (like say, TErry Pratchett or Michael Crichoton or Tom Clancy) so it probably makese sense that for the first week, she'd be up on top.

And if you think about it, its obvious in the first week alot of people would be buying it because they are eitehr Traviss's fans/Fandalorians, or those people who mindlessly buy SW stuff for it being star wars. And it looked like a fair number of ppl bought it just to bitch about it too.

The real question is - will things be as they are next week, or the week after?

Lord Poe wrote:What we need is Zahn to come back. He trashed KJA and other crap that happened since his original Thrawn books in the Hand of Thrawn duology. He should rip into the bitch.

I'd bring Zahn back if he didn't do something similar with all his pet characters. I didn't like Outbound Flight as much as I'd hoped because it was pretty hefty Thrawn wanking, and he can be almost as bad with Mara Jade at times. (or C'baoth, or Car'Das, or even Talon Karrde.) He's not nearly as over the top as Traviss, but it CAN detract from the enjoyment. Outbound Flight was a hefty dose of "Thrawn genius this" or "Thrawn Genius that." And his treatment of the chiss is not marginally much better.

I much prefer someone like Allston, Denning, or Luceno. Or the guys who wrote the Medstar books adn the Death Star novel.

Master of Ossus wrote:This is actually somewhat encouraging--members of TFN and even the OS seem to be coming around. The criticism is well deserved, but now a significant number of fans there are expressing it. YodaKenobi's review is absolutely shocking--just reading the review makes me angry about the book--and so far he seems to have gotten away with it. On the OS, too, DarkMoose banned one person for criticizing the book, but there was a LOT of discussion that occurred before that. I think that if this keeps up, LFL will start feeling the heat to hire competent writers who care about Star Wars rather than their own fanfic developments.

That's right, Karen, your drivel is no better than fanfic. I say this because your characters bear no resemblance to the real ones, except for the fact that they have the same names. In addition, like many bad fanfic writers, you use the main characters only to highlight the alleged awesomeness of your pet characters.

I wouldn't get too excited. I would point out that while people ARE criticizing Traviss, its mainly for her portrayal of the Jedi, and to a lesser extent, forcibly intruding the Mandalorians into the LOTF storyline so poorly. There were still a fair number of people praising her as a writer, or her Republic Commando books as great (and a fair number were obviously her mindless fans if not her own cronies.) Its a startt I suppose, but this doesn't mean that there's about to be anything close to a revolution.

Of course, ,its also quite likely given DM, that there's still alot of favoritism for Traviss there, and I suppose if she's still actively itneracting with the fandom, alot of people will still be hesitant to give their opinions right in front of her (you know, that politeness thing they all crave.)

Connor MacLeod wrote: I wouldn't get too excited. I would point out that while people ARE criticizing Traviss, its mainly for her portrayal of the Jedi, and to a lesser extent, forcibly intruding the Mandalorians into the LOTF storyline so poorly. There were still a fair number of people praising her as a writer, or her Republic Commando books as great (and a fair number were obviously her mindless fans if not her own cronies.) Its a start I suppose, but this doesn't mean that there's about to be anything close to a revolution.

Actually, it's kind of important to remember that Karen Traviss isn't a shitty author when she isn't bashing the jedi or wanking the mandalorians. The first Republic Commando book had none of the bullshit that characterized her later novels, and it was one of the best Clone War novels written. Her writing didn't take a nose-dive in the quality department until she got criticized for the 3 million clones number and went batshit crazy. If she manages to regain some of her sanity, or LFL tells her to knock off her shit, she might be able to write some good books again. Of course, to a normal writer, that would be what matters, but she doesn't give a shit about quality writing anymore. It's all about bashing jedi and wanking mandos.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Charlemagne? Is he that turd who always went "Lightsaber of Truth". What a fucking dipshit.

Yeah, the "Lightsaber of Truth" ought to be called "Charlemagne's Lightsaber of Obedience to his Own Canon".

Connor MacLeod wrote:[snip]

I much prefer someone like Allston, Denning, or Luceno. Or the guys who wrote the Medstar books adn the Death Star novel.

I don't think Zahn is a perfect writer, but he doesn't spend an entire plot-arc novel working out how uber his characters are. Frankly, though, if an author wanted to wank Mara Jade or Thrawn it would at least make sense. Mara is a Jedi. Thrawn is a brilliant tactician and commander, who seems to be a tremendous force-multiplier. Boba Fett is a good... fighter... in a galaxy full of them. Traviss really DOES make the Mandos seem as powerful as even high-level Jedi. That's bullshit of the highest order.

Let me put it this way: if Zahn ever spent an entire book discussing how Thrawn would be a physical match for Vader, or how Mara was really more powerful than the Emperor and was just biding her time to kill him and Vader but didn't want Luke to blame her for their deaths, then we'd have a problem on the same order of magnitude as KT's. Maybe less, because Thrawn and Mara really ARE talented on a galactic level.

I'll agree that someone like Denning could be an even better choice, but I don't think Zahn would be bad. As for the TFN/OS criticism, I really just think that it's good that people are criticizing her. I don't think it'll change LFL's policies overnight, but at least these posters aren't getting banned at the first keystroke like previous Traviss critics. I think that's encouraging.

Current rating at TFN: 5.91 Does anyone know where the ratings are kept (if any) for EU books?

And...ouch:

mikal768 wrote:And once again Traviss shows her "True Colors". *sigh*

The Good
It was nice to see the steps taken to move things towards the Legacy era, even if it was done at the expense of everything that makes Star Wars, Star Wars.

The Bad
Anything that showed the backwater militamando's as superior to every- and anything else in the galaxy, whether it be morals, sports, parties, or war. Seriously, if the Mandalorians were so gifted, why haven't they taken over? Oh right. They don't want to.

The Ugly
The idiofication of everyone who doesn't wear handwavium beskar armor and go "awhoooo" or whatever their idiot war cry is.

Seriously... how is it Traviss still has her contract? This was by far one of the most pathetic entries into the LotF series.

Is there any chance I can get a refund on this book?

0.1/10.0 (it's only saving grace being Old Gil dying with dignity, even if he brought Daala back, otherwise I'd have to give it a 0.0)

Boy, we Talifans are sure busy for just being 10-12 in number!