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Beowulf wrote:Neither type of xESA is necessary for TWS operation. The AWG-9 is capable of tracking 24 seperate targets at once. With the improved electronics available in the late 80's compared to the 60's, the tracking range for both the MiG-31 and F-106H are likely to roughly identical. Also, the F-106 probably has a much lower RCS than 15m, an average fighter is 3-5m2.

No F-106s have AWG-9 radars. No fighter is going to have a RCS of 3-5 m square unless it's clean (and I think I do recall calculations for all 4th generations from Eurofighter to MiG-35, clean or not). No clean fighter can engage in meaningful combat. What's wrong here?

Beowulf wrote:PESA is not required for multiple target tracking.

The practical speed of re-orienting a mechanical array would be a pressing issue when engaging in missile combat. Electronically scanned arrays give true multi-tasking capability to the pilot - the mechanical radar would take 12-14 seconds to complete a scan, meaning it's true multi-target tracking abilities would be rather lacking.

Beowulf wrote:The F-106A has those limits. Improved engine technology would allow greater speeds to be achieved.

I'm talking about F-106A successors as well. None had radical engine improvements installed, or planned. Most upgrades concerned avionics. So where's the difference from F-106A? Next issue?

Beowulf wrote:However, all of it's armament is internal, which greatly increases sustained speed (due to lower drag). Additionally, if you're carrrying more than 6-8 AAMs, you're probably got more than you can use.

No, the MiGs would be carrying not AAMs but Kh-31Ps as additional armament, to supress ground radars. Makes sense - the Costas have nothing to protect their radars with, while the Kh-31's range would allow the MiGs to suppres the radar network from quite a distance.

Beowulf wrote:See answer to 3.

I haven't seen that any planned or actually improved F-106s had a better ceiling, or it was mentioned that projected versions had better ceiling. Have you? Because 3 kilometers is a lot. Basically, it would be difference of life and death since the MiG-31s would be totally covering the area and seeing every rising asset in the region.

Beowulf wrote:Because only having two AFBs is retarded? I have closer to 60 different airbases (precise number not available because I don't have my unit list with me at the moment).

Because First World military power Tian Xia is totally comparable with Costa! Oh wait, I smell bullshit. How many AFBs does a typical Third World nation undergoing a revolution have? What are it's sortie rates? Stop bullshitting Beowulf, or I'll go down through every single minutiae about Third World wars, and we will see how really capable the Costas would be in pulling off an aerial battle with 100+ machines.

Beowulf wrote:By nearly every naval engineer on the planet. If it was effective, it'd see significantly more use.

Really? So British and Soviet engineers are idiots? Or maybe because they actually conducted trials of the system against torpedoes, they can speak more about it than those who didn't do shit? Because they actually did; and the systems went through several generations (Hedgehog-Squid-Limbo for the British, MBU-200-600-RBU-1000-6000-12000 for the USSR) at each iteration the system could have been abolished. The trials must have spoken otherwise. Torpedoes haven't become more invulnerable since the 1970s really, so what the hell are you talking about?

Anyway, hows this for casualties:
Carrier damaged
1 kirov damaged

That looks more like reality. The carrier could technically sink, but I doubt that the flotilla will abandon it. The fight for survival would be extremely fierce with all ships doing everything they can to stop it from sinking. The effectiveness of the RBU system can be doubted, but there were trials against torpedoes, so were it really useless, it won't have survived the first iteration of Soviet trials. After all, heavy Soviet torps aren't that much different from US torps.

30 MiG-31s destroyed
some number of B-1B destroyed
30 F-106H destroyed
3 Su-30MKI destroyed.
48 A-4SU destroyed.

That certainly looks more realistic. I'm still skeptical about the abilities of the mechanically scanned arrays to correctly be able to engage many targets, but you're right in that here it doesn't matter. The F-106s outnumber the attackers.

The B-1Bs would be cannon fodder if they entered the battlezone, and doing it to drop gravity bombs in a middleo f an air war is patently stupid in my view... so I think they veered off as soon as it got heated.

Literal decimation of the 1st and 5th divisions (10%)

Fine. I doubt there's a possibility to inflict any greater casualties even with total air supremacy in such a short time. I really doubt it. Like I said, I won't be shy to look into minutiae of Iraq war and Yugoslavia war to see if that's mildly realistic.

P.S. Technically this could be my final post here for several days. I am in the process of learning Chinese which is very hard and consumes lots of free time and memory. Probably I'll not be at the forum for a week or so.

So I hope this casualty count would be agreed on by others. I think the discussion has served us well. Meanwhile I'll look into THird World wars like I said.

Ryan: I'm not saying this to back up Beo (Fingolfin's brutal "you're a lapdog" treatment kind of got through to my evil and opportunistic core ), but the F-106H was pretty much one of the pinnacles of Sheppish twinkery. Guided by a decent hardened ground radar system, they make amazing missile launch platforms, and despite its' many amazing performance categories the F-22 (and by that same token, the MiG-31M used by the Baernish to engage the Costans) is -not- perfect. They can be killed by sheer number of missiles, which (I suspect) was how Shep's air force dealt the MESS air armada the blows it did and how the Costans could have achieved any kills against modern interception aircraft.

I am, however, not convinced Costa has the radar system required. Anyway. That's just my two bits. By this point, I kind of don't care about it either way.

In unrelated news, I wanted to poll you guys about something. Which name & flag (either will work, i haven't really done much fluff yet) should I use for my new nation north of Velaria?

Estovakia
(more Old Continent-derived and socialist)

OR

Emmeria
(more Messican/Frequesean-derived and monarchist)

Let me know, guys.

Czechmate wrote:Ryan: I'm not saying this to back up Beo (Fingolfin's brutal "you're a lapdog" treatment kind of got through to my evil and opportunistic core ), but the F-106H was pretty much one of the pinnacles of Sheppish twinkery. Guided by a decent hardened ground radar system, they make amazing missile launch platforms, and despite its' many amazing performance categories the F-22 (and by that same token, the MiG-31M used by the Baernish to engage the Costans) is -not- perfect. They can be killed by sheer number of missiles, which (I suspect) was how Shep's air force dealt the MESS air armada the blows it did and how the Costans could have achieved any kills against modern interception aircraft.

Yes, throwing absurd numbers of missiles at it is going to kill it--provided that you can actually get a lock to begin with, of course. I recall reading articles where pilots would talk about how there were situations where they could fucking see the plane in front of them and were physically incapable of getting a weapons lock on it.

In unrelated news, I wanted to poll you guys about something. Which name & flag (either will work, i haven't really done much fluff yet) should I use for my new nation north of Velaria?

<snip>

Let me know, guys.

I think I like the second one.

Czechmate wrote:They can be killed by sheer number of missiles, which (I suspect) was how Shep's air force dealt the MESS air armada the blows it did and how the Costans could have achieved any kills against modern interception aircraft.

I am, however, not convinced Costa has the radar system required. Anyway. That's just my two bits. By this point, I kind of don't care about it either way.

The Costa is a third world shithole. I doubt it can even AFFORD F-106Hs that's been obscenely modified to be able to stand toe-to-toe with 4.5 generation fighters. I doubt they can AFFORD to buy that obscene amount of missiles - or PLANES for that matter. I doubt they can AFFORD to train any pilots for that.

UNLESS I wasn't the first one to bring Mercenary Aces in, and that all these Costan fighter pilots are actually ex-Tian Xian maverick renegade TOP GUNS with names like Kim Chi or Crouching Tiger or Hidden Dragon or something. Or Tonkinese mercs or something. Or Klavostani mercenary fighter pilots - if they have those.

These guys are third world crapholes and in any vaguely sane scenario, they'd be the least likely guys to have anything remotely resembling a competent air force.

I mean, shit, the only worthwhile territory the Costan government can control is its capital - and half of its military has outright mutinied and gone under the control of Stone Cold Sam Austin.

Estovakia
(more Old Continent-derived and socialist)

OR

Emmeria
(more Messican/Frequesean-derived and monarchist)

Let me know, guys.

I'd go with the Estovakians, actually. Emmerian flag is weak-ass shit and looks dopey.

Besides, your in the F-ing continent.

I prefer the Estovakian flag (and name). Plus we kind of have enough monarchies around, methinks.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Besides, your in the F-ing continent.

I don't think so- isn't this new country supposed to be sitting on some island chain off North-Velaria?

Emmerica has a flag to close to Zoria's (a Navy blue banner with a horizontal white line going down the middle with a Nato Compass Rose at the center).

Zor

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I'd go with the Estovakians, actually. Emmerian flag is weak-ass shit and looks dopey.

Besides, your in the F-ing continent.

Aw hell naw. Had enough of that hood.

Here's a map of the north pacific islands, above velaria. Misteria is Pollux' country (light green), Estovakia is my country (dark blue), and the other two are second-world NPCs. better than Velaria, about on par with Fking, lagging behind my guys (i don't like playing crapholes) and the First World nations of MESS and CATO because of their isolationist tendencies. In fact, I figure all of the North Pacific nations are pretty well unconcerned with events outside of the northpac islands and Veleria proper.



I reckon the two NPCs are roughly a duchy, duchy and a half each. I'll put up OOBs for them sometime soonish. I only made them NPCs cause...well, gotta quantify them somehow.

short summaries:

Polarian Autarchy (Polarians): Pretty much self-explanatory; ruled by a hereditary lord with a rubberstamp parliament. They're roughly based on a better-managed North Korea. Grrrrrr, Taepodong-2! Kim Jung KILL!

Archipelagic Federation (Feds): An idealized interventionist federation of a number of smaller island nations. Could be likened to the early United States, more a number of territories under one banner than a single coherent country.

Miratia is...uh, I'm not sure. They're just there cause Pollux might maybe be coming back someday maybe and I don't want to be accused of taking his nation away.

Also, I have decided on Estovakia as the name. Woo! I'll probably swap the colors of my islands and the Polarians, cause red is probably more suitable for me than them.

EDIT: Hey, cool, I just realized I get to use Strigon Squadron and their bitchin Su-33 paintscheme. Double Woo!

That's not Miratia. That's Mysteria. Last time I checked, he had great relations with Stas and the CSR back in the day.

EDIT:

I thought Czech was roleplaying Tian Jiao!

you'll note it now says misteria.

Czechmate wrote:Miratia is...uh, I'm not sure. They're just there cause Pollux might maybe be coming back someday maybe and I don't want to be accused of taking his nation away.

You better get your story straight!

I certainly will not be surprised when Misteria 'decides' to join CATO. ;|

EDIT: And how could you of all people not pick up on ''Kim Jung KILL"?

EDIT2:

Colors fixed.

Kim Jung Kill is very catchy, now that you've made me notice!

Kim Jung KILL!

That's more like it.

The sultan's nationalization of the mercenary companies only applied to those working in Costa, and with the end of hostilities there, has been ended. Thus spake the Sultan.

Beowulf wrote:The sultan's nationalization of the mercenary companies only applied to those working in Costa, and with the end of hostilities there, has been ended. Thus spake the Sultan.

Why are you putting this in the comment thread after I've already acted on the other information?

Edit: Even if the above is the case the plot can still move forward. Given how Klavostani mercs have been used for just about every dirty plot in this game I'm sure there are plenty of them that think they should be in charge of the nation. With the Sultan acting strangely (Since he actually isn't the Sultan but an impostor) and canceling contracts now is the time to act before he goes too far. From what I remember the mercs are the real power there anyway; their total forces are even bigger than the national army.

Wow. I did not know that Prime Minister Shroom's comment to Gero on "damned dopplegangers!" was remarkably astute. I didn't know (because I didn't read) about that impostor thing until... now!

Also:
FLAMING GUITARS, LANGLEY! ROCK ON!

Well, I (the Exile Duke IC, until now) had the lookalike surgically altered to be as close to the dead Sultan as possible, then had all my own guys do the cleanup and forensics on the Great Hall. All in all, no one should know it's an impostor unless they're shamelessly metagaming.

EDIT: Though you should totally act on your ill-gotten OOC knowledge IC. I'd love to see the result. :3

EDIT2: I suppose it's up to Beo to finish the Klavostan plot, since I'm not playing the Exile Duke anymore. Nor do I run Tian Jiao.

Glory to Estovakia!

I already called "Czechmate" a "fucker in the OOB thread" IC.

Doesn't matter, anyway. Maybe everyone thinks that the Sultan is acting weird because he had parts of his brain exploded? Maybe everyone thinks that the scars from your cheap surgery are evidence of a lobotomy?

Man, you suck. That's an utterly shitty plotline from that Hitman movie. You should've had more of that Olga chick's titties, by the way.

Loinstar wrote:Shroom gave me a call and said soemthing about feeding me to the bleeding breasts of whores, but that's it.

I SO DID NOT!

Czechmate wrote:Well, I (the Exile Duke IC, until now) had the lookalike surgically altered to be as close to the dead Sultan as possible, then had all my own guys do the cleanup and forensics on the Great Hall. All in all, no one should know it's an impostor unless they're shamelessly metagaming.

EDIT: Though you should totally act on your ill-gotten OOC knowledge IC. I'd love to see the result. :3

Bullshit. He's not the same man and doesn't have the same personality. People who knew him well will be able to tell the difference. (If nothing else it would be considered brain damage). Plus to be any use the new Sultan would have to change his policies and other intel services will pick up on that.

Whether the Sultan is an impostor or not is irrelevant. His policies now seem to be very closely aligned with Tian Xia (Why the hell else would the mercenaries withdraw before the MESS's fleet even sailed?)

Indhopal is moving to secure its regional interests which include not having nations that are friendly to expansionist foreign powers on its borders.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I already called "Czechmate" a "fucker in the OOB thread" IC.

What in the name of Nova Terra's irresponsible, uncaring God are you on about?

EDIT: And what the fuck has possessed you to make this personal?

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Also:
FLAMING GUITARS, LANGLEY! ROCK ON!

Sergey Karić was just as much of a douchebag as his cousin Srdjan. The only people who'd miss him are the ultra-hardcore punks, the scum of the Border States (the other core of Anti-Shep's fandom), and the Sirnothi ultranationalists (Anti-Shep did openly declare their support and admiration for General Cortes, after all).

Czechmate wrote:

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I already called "Czechmate" a "fucker in the OOB thread" IC.

What in the name of Nova Terra's irresponsible, uncaring God are you on about?

Here

"Now down south, the Vineyards has become a MESS observer. Worse with Tian Jiao. It's outright MESS-owned, Tian Xian, with an utter sycophant of a leader. For all we know, the Klavostanis are MESS puppets too, no thanks to those damn dopplegangers!

And here

"You alright?" Alison asked Shroom.

"Yeah, meeting with Gero went well. Better than I could've ever thought."

"But you look kind of... tired. Worried?" Alison pressed.

"It's nothing," Shroom shrugged. "Czechmate was just being a total whore in the OOB thread."

"Yeah," Alison agreed. "Czechmate is a total whore."

It's not personal. It's for the lulz.

[EDIT: Damn! Langley, he was the cousin of Srdjan? Cool! ]

So...an Old Dominion embassy guard killed Srdjan Karic's cousin?

Why, somebody's about to become a statistic

Czechmate, you may have been given another chance at playing the game and a new country to play it with. But, nobody gave you the right to arrange your neighborhood to suit your needs. Those vacant islands are supposed to serve as a placement point for new players and not some dumb NPC nations you invented. I do not intend to allow you to go through with this, Consider this my formal objection.

Too bad, Kim Jung Kill would've been a cool character.

But Shady raises a good point. Those are NPC holdout nations in case someone joins, mang! I forgots about that!

Yeah!

EDIT;

BEN DOVER makes his glorious return to the international geopolitical scene! HUZZAH!