German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

Post by Serafina »

Liberty Ferall wrote: I think that an argument could be made that those who believe in YEC shouldn't teach science, but I don't see why that should be extended to history, as you said.

But - can't someone teach about atoms, or about the biology of the mechanisms involved in blood clotting, etc, without believing that all life evolved from a single-celled organism billions of years ago?
Because human history clearly IS longer than 6000 years.
You propably won't get much interferrence for the last 2-4000 years, but all before that is "pre-flood" - but we already had high cultures there, you will completely miss several revolutionary developments in human history (such as the invention of agriculture) - including a lot of early european history, by the way.

And of course, these children won't learn about truly ancient history, such as the first settlement of europe (or other continents).
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

Post by Thanas »

Liberty Ferall wrote: Mike and Ali are Christian fundamentalists, and they send their children to public school. They believe that every word of the Bible is true, that Jesus died for people's sins, and that only believe in Jesus will save a person from eternal damnation. They believe that gays are not born that way, and that homosexuality is a perversion; they believe that those leading an openly gay lifestyle are living in sin. They believe that prayer works and that God is actively involved in the world. They believe that God created the world 6,000 years ago, and that God loves everyone and wants them to go to heaven when they die. Mike and Ali believe that leading a homosexual lifestyle is sin, that abortion is murder, that premarital sex is sin, and that only Jesus can bring salvation, but at the same time, they believe that violence is wrong and they do not advocate actually doing physical harm to gays or abortion doctors.

So - are you saying that Mike and Ali cannot teach these beliefs to their own children?
Those would skirt the line, but generally that is accepted in society. What would not be accepted would be Mike and Ali brainwashing their children or limiting their exposure to school subjects where contradicting things are told, for example biology. So at least the children get several authority figures and access to the works and they have to study and take the tests.

Now, I know what you are going to say next - that homeschooling might provide similar things. That is not the case, however, for a public school is an entirely different environment and teachers are more qualified to engage the child in a discussion and get them on the right track.

That said, it is extremely unlikely that a german parent would proselytize to their own children. I come from a deeply conservative family and I never had a sitdown with my parents where they would try to influence me in any way. In fact, this sort of stuff is usually left to schools and peers with the occasional discussion at home. Now, there are some germans who really fill their children with stuff, but this is not the average. I know of latin professors who do not teach their own children latin, for example, but leave it to the schools.

Socializing by the state is extremely well-done and starts quite early, for example as early as the age of three or four. Since that time period you always interact with a lot of children at a state-run facility and this continues on in the ideal case until you leave school. That is another argument against homeschooling in Germany, by the way.

A few of these facilities are even church run, but aside from the occasional sunday prayer it is maken sure that the church does not influence the children unduly. Plus, religion is an intensely private matter in Germany. I for one do not even know the religion of anybody but my closest twelve or so friends.
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

Post by Thanas »

Raesene wrote:
Liberty Ferall wrote: But - can't someone teach about atoms, or about the biology of the mechanisms involved in blood clotting, etc, without believing that all life evolved from a single-celled organism billions of years ago?
They can believe whatever they want, but have to teach according to the guidelines of the education ministry - and those are not subject to parental votes.
Indeed. To wit, in Germany there is also a two-year mandatory training period after university in which it is made sure the teacher can do his/her job.
Serafina wrote:
Thanas wrote:
Serafina wrote:Yes, inciting any belief system that is based on hatred and contempt for other belief systems should be stopped.
*snip 130 StGB*
You cite the wrong law.
I do? Ooops :oops:
So, what law would be the most appropriate one for what i refered to?
No law. As long as it is not hate speech - which the example Liberty Ferall was referring too clearly is not - you can say whatever you want.
Liberty Ferall wrote:
Thanas wrote:Please, don't go quoting freedoms to me, I do hold a law degree with a specialization in constitutional law. Freedom of religion is an important freedom, but as all freedoms it has boundaries. Such boundaries are the welfare of the child, for example. Here is the basic law of Germany, the things you are looking for are 3(3), Article 4, 6,7, as well as the still existing rights of the Weimar constitution here.
I'm just interested in trying to understand how it differs between the U.S. and Germany.
I have no clue about US parental law, though it puzzles me that parents apparently are allowed to sabotage their children as they see fit.
I think that an argument could be made that those who believe in YEC shouldn't teach science, but I don't see why that should be extended to history, as you said.
Because it stands to reason that they also believe everything the bible tells us about history.
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

Post by Liberty »

Thanas wrote:
Liberty Ferall wrote:
Thanas wrote:There is a difference between parents and their influence on children and adults trying to convert each other. Children are genetically disposed towards believing their parents. In a normal family, the parent will be the first source of information and the biggest authority figure in the life of a child. That is not the same as an adult trying to convert another adult.
So wait - are you saying that parents shouldn't try to teach their religious beliefs to their children?
No, that they should give the child the same chance to an education as every other child has. You know, I am quite tired of you not getting this. I have clarified this numerous times in this thread.

Nobody in Germany is stopped from teaching their children the religion, but there is a boundary. We do not want radicals and we do not want crusaders.
I'm sorry if I'm coming across as dense. I am not from Germany, and so I don't know how things work there. It sounded like you were saying a parent couldn't teach their child their religion if it contained politically-incorrect views, even if they sent their children to public schools. That's what confused me.

And as far as me being dense goes, I have modified my views in response to some arguments on this thread. I admit that:

1. with a good school system like you have in Germany, homeschooling should not be allowed.

2. there should be more regulations in the U.S. to weed out those who are homeschooling for religious reasons and doing a bad job of it (I don't think homeschooling for religious reasons should be de facto outlawed as many families homeschool for both religious and academic reasons, and they're not just bsing that last part to sound legit).

3. you are right, public schools do on average expose students to more viewpoints, etc, than they will see when homeschooled. I had not really thought on this before. However, because of the dismal state of education in many school districts, the desire to have children exposed to many views should not outweigh parents' desire to homeschool students to give them a better education.

4. I uphold parental rights a bit more than some of you do. Right or wrong, that's my (largely gut) position at the moment. I'm not afraid to change it, but that's how it is at the moment.

I still contend that homeschooling can work out very well academically, at least compared to the American public school system, but I am not saying that it always does. I am merely saying that it can.
Those would skirt the line, but generally that is accepted in society. What would not be accepted would be Mike and Ali brainwashing their children or limiting their exposure to school subjects where contradicting things are told, for example biology. So at least the children get several authority figures and access to the works and they have to study and take the tests.
Okay, this makes sense. It sounded for a moment like you were saying those children would be removed.

How do you define "brainwashing"?
That said, it is extremely unlikely that a german parent would proselytize to their own children. I come from a deeply conservative family and I never had a sitdown with my parents where they would try to influence me in any way. In fact, this sort of stuff is usually left to schools and peers with the occasional discussion at home. Now, there are some germans who really fill their children with stuff, but this is not the average.
Do conservative Christian parents not take their children to church, and send them to sunday school, or Wendesday night Bible club? This is extremely common in the United States, or at least in the Bible Belt. And what do you mean "proselytize to their own children"? Because generally what I see is parents teaching their children what they believe. They take them to church, to sunday school, to Bible club, and then many homeschool families - and actually a good number of public school families as well - have "Bible time" with their children each day, where they read the Bible aloud, discuss it, and pray together. Then there are random conversations about God and about Christian doctrine. In fundie families, such conversations come up several times a day. It's just part of their life, part of who they are. Is this proselytizing their children?
Last edited by Liberty on 2010-02-04 10:26am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

Post by Liberty »

Thanas wrote:
Raesene wrote:
Liberty Ferall wrote: But - can't someone teach about atoms, or about the biology of the mechanisms involved in blood clotting, etc, without believing that all life evolved from a single-celled organism billions of years ago?
They can believe whatever they want, but have to teach according to the guidelines of the education ministry - and those are not subject to parental votes.
Indeed. To wit, in Germany there is also a two-year mandatory training period after university in which it is made sure the teacher can do his/her job.
So you're saying someone could believe in YEC and still be an okay science teacher, in your view?
I think that an argument could be made that those who believe in YEC shouldn't teach science, but I don't see why that should be extended to history, as you said.
Because it stands to reason that they also believe everything the bible tells us about history.
Actually, this isn't so. The Bible doesn't discuss Julius Caesar, or the Middle Ages, or Ancient Greece, or the Industrial Revolution. People who believe in YEC are not so dumb as to believe that these things didn't happen because they're not in the Bible.

In my experience people who believe in YEC teach everything pretty much the way other teachers might, including teaching the agricultural revolution, etc (they admit that man had to make that transition, they just say it happened pretty fast right at the beginning), with one change: They'll say things like "the Protestant Reformation was God's plan for spreading the news about salvation" or "the patriots during the American Revolution were successful because (insert actual reasons here), and also because they were following God's will." But these sidenotes aren't inserted if the subject is being taught in a public school setting. So I would argue that someone who believes in YEC can teach history, but I would take issue with the sidenotes and say that their place is not in a classroom of any sort.
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

Post by Serafina »

Liberty Ferall wrote:*snip*
So, you admit that even the best cases distort history?

How is this different from distorting World War II, the Civil War or anything else in history?
Or don't you see anything wrong with lying to further your own belief and spread it to others?
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

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Liberty Ferall wrote:I'm sorry if I'm coming across as dense.
Nah. Sorry about that comment, wrote a bit too much in the heat of the moment.
Okay, this makes sense. It sounded for a moment like you were saying those children would be removed.
Well, that would cause about 20-30% of the people to revolt. :lol:
How do you define "brainwashing"?
There is no general definition for it that I would like to apply to this situation, but to my mind brainwashing in this situation would be generally using your authority as a parent to fill the heads of the children with views that have been scientifically disproved.
Do conservative Christian parents not take their children to church,
I attend church semi-regularly. I rarely see children there. Not much evidence, I know, but even in a supposedly large and good church with lots of tradition and a great priest there are few children. THe children there are usually are taken out and go to a playground or a supervised playgroup in order not to disturb the service. Children in churches is generally frowned upon. Of course, this does not apply to evangelical christians here.
and send them to sunday school, or Wendesday night Bible club?
None of those are standard institutions in Germany. You do not even get religious schooling outside the public schools until you are in grade 10 or 13 and then it is elective.
This is extremely common in the United States, or at least in the Bible Belt. And what do you mean "proselytize to their own children"? Because generally what I see is parents teaching their children what they believe. They take them to church, to sunday school, to Bible club, and then many homeschool families - and actually a good number of public school families as well - have "Bible time" with their children each day, where they read the Bible aloud, discuss it, and pray together.
The only one to whom that applies to in Germany are probably Yehova Witnesses or evangelical christians. I know several girls from extremely conservative families and the only thing that happened there was that grace was said before meals. Religious education is left to the schools or (after grade 10) to the priest.
Then there are random conversations about God and about Christian doctrine. In fundie families, such conversations come up several times a day. It's just part of their life, part of who they are. Is this proselytizing their children?
Well, there is talk about god of course, but in my experience it is less about doctrine than about philosophy. In any case, it is a rare subject. From my own experience, I can say that this happened about two times in the last year.

Liberty Ferall wrote:So you're saying someone could believe in YEC and still be an okay science teacher, in your view?
If he follows the guidelines and never ever bring up his personal views, but instead actively teaches that the church and the bible was wrong about evolution etc, then yes, he would be a well-respected teacher because the subject of his personal beliefs would never come up.
Liberty Ferall wrote:In my experience people who believe in YEC teach everything pretty much the way other teachers might, including teaching the agricultural revolution, etc (they admit that man had to make that transition, they just say it happened pretty fast right at the beginning), with one change: They'll say things like "the Protestant Reformation was God's plan for spreading the news about salvation" or "the patriots during the American Revolution were successful because (insert actual reasons here), and also because they were following God's will." But these sidenotes aren't inserted if the subject is being taught in a public school setting. So I would argue that someone who believes in YEC can teach history, but I would take issue with the sidenotes and say that their place is not in a classroom of any sort.
This is exactly the sort of thing that is most damaging to history.
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

Post by Raesene »

Liberty Ferall wrote:Do conservative Christian parents not take their children to church, and send them to sunday school, or Wendesday night Bible club? This is extremely common in the United States, or at least in the Bible Belt. And what do you mean "proselytize to their own children"? Because generally what I see is parents teaching their children what they believe. They take them to church, to sunday school, to Bible club, and then many homeschool families - and actually a good number of public school families as well - have "Bible time" with their children each day, where they read the Bible aloud, discuss it, and pray together. Then there are random conversations about God and about Christian doctrine. In fundie families, such conversations come up several times a day. It's just part of their life, part of who they are. Is this proselytizing their children?
I'd say most Europeans would consider having 'Bible time' every day excentric behaviour at best, borderline crazy (but not forbidden) at worst with corresponding consequences by the parent's peers.
While religion is taught (non-mandatory) at school in Austria, following an approved curriculum (including ecclesiastic history, fundamentals about other faiths and moral philosophy) in most cases it's seen as a way to better one's average mark instead of fulfilling religious desires. Most children attend church-associated clubs because of the chance to socialise and maybe perform non-penal commmunity service in rural communities; I'd expect few modern teenagers really being interested in the Gospel.

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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

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Raesene wrote:I'd say most Europeans would consider having 'Bible time' every day excentric behaviour at best, borderline crazy (but not forbidden) at worst with corresponding consequences by the parent's peers.
I can only confirm that.
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

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Liberty Ferall wrote:3. you are right, public schools do on average expose students to more viewpoints, etc, than they will see when homeschooled. I had not really thought on this before. However, because of the dismal state of education in many school districts, the desire to have children exposed to many views should not outweigh parents' desire to homeschool students to give them a better education.
One comment on exposure: when I got sent to boarding school, my parents basically said straight out that they were buying friends, not an education. When I was in primary school, I went to the local primary school, which included people from all kinds of social levels, including people who I would not have met otherwise, because their parents were not the kind of people my parents would socialise with. Some of these kids were completely feral, but others were quite nice. In any case, it did give my sisters an me a broader perspective on society. If you homeschool your daughter, it will be difficult for you to give her that kind of exposure.

That said, I think for me that going to the public primary school was a bit of a waste of time, because it was shit and I probably could have taught myself better.
4. I uphold parental rights a bit more than some of you do. Right or wrong, that's my (largely gut) position at the moment. I'm not afraid to change it, but that's how it is at the moment.
It would probably help you to remember that in conversations with non-Americans, views regarding civil liberties are based not only on individual rights, but also social responsibility to a much greater extent than in America. Any argument that's based purely on the idea that people should do whatever they want without government interference will not be accepted quite as readily by non-Americans than by Americans. If you want to avoid arguments going around in circles like this one in the future, it would probably be a good idea to think about exactly why individual (or in this case parental) rights are so important to society and include that as part of your argument.
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

Post by Liberty »

Serafina wrote:
Liberty Ferall wrote:*snip*
So, you admit that even the best cases distort history?

How is this different from distorting World War II, the Civil War or anything else in history?
Or don't you see anything wrong with lying to further your own belief and spread it to others?
Did you catch me saying that they would leave that out of a public school classroom? They know it's just their interpretation. Also, while some would distort and even lie, my point was that someone can believe in YEC and legitimately teach history (Thanas said point blank that those who believe in YEC should not be allowed to teach history). If you're going to say that no one who believes God has been involved in the historical process, influencing people to do certain things, etc, can teach legitimately teach history, you need to realize that you are eliminating every single Christian, not just fundies or those who believe in YEC.

At risk of undermining my entire argument, I give you this:
Teaching Religious Intolerance
Christian fundamentalist textbooks display a breathtakingly arrogant attitude toward other religions.
By Frances Patterson
http://www.rethinkingschools.org/specia ... o162.shtml

To say that Christian fundamentalist textbooks portray Roman Catholicism and non-Western religions in a negative way is to understate the case by several orders of magnitude. All the texts are imbued with an arrogance and hostility toward non-Western religions that is truly breathtaking.

This animus toward other religions is intimately tied to the theological roots of fundamentalist Christian perspectives. As researchers Gaddy, Hall, and Maranzo have noted, because Christian fundamentalists believe that truth can only be found in "God's infallible, literal Word revealed in the Bible, religious tolerance toward others with different values and different world views must be rejected." 1

Criticism of other religions and Christian denominations frequently revolve around the issue of salvation by faith alone versus salvation by good works. Indeed, this was and remains one of the primary differences between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism (with Catholics upholding the importance of good works). As one booklet notes, "Only Christianity requires simple faith rather than good works. Only in Christianity is salvation provided through a person rather than through good works." 2

In looking at the treatment of religion, I again studied three major textbook publishers for fundamentalist Christian schools and home-schoolers: A Beka Press, Bob Jones University Press, and School of Tomorrow/Accelerated Christian Education. I drew on a wider range of the textbooks and materials than in my discussion of politics and included substantially more material from world history and geography textbooks and, in some instances, from English literature texts.

Materials from the three publishers have a recurring theme: that the lack of material progress in various Third World countries and among indigenous peoples can be attributed to their religious beliefs. The publishers also share a tremendous emphasis on conservative Protestant missionary activity; approving passages abound about individual missionaries and Christian converts and the need for both historical and contemporary evangelism.

In one textbook's discussion of India, for example, students are asked how Hinduism contributed "to this country's sad fate." Students are then encouraged to contrast India with the United States and told, "If we refused to kill disease-carrying insects, allowed filthy animals to roam around in public places, and refused to eat meat for nourishment, do you think we would be as prosperous as we are?" 3

A great majority of material in the books and literature studied are unobjectionable: map studies, discussions of Revolutionary War battles, information about the kings and queens of England, facts about the invention of the cotton gin, and so forth. Nevertheless, many statements related to non-Western religions raise serious issues that should be part of the public debate over the use of public funding for sectarian education and the use of these materials for home schooling.
And the article goes on to give examples from the texts.

Let me point out first that the three textbooks used are the worst ones out there, and second that I believe that homeschoolers should not be allowed to use these texts (with proper regulation, they could be given a list of "acceptable" history texts to choose from). And third, history education in American public schools is especially notorious; for some reason, the high school history teacher is also usually the coach for one or more of the school's sports teams, and such teachers are often hired simply to coach and then also asked to teach history. So a lot of them suck. Also, the awfulness of the history texts used by many homeschoolers has made me want to create my own alternative, a history curriculum marketed toward homeschoolers, but one that teaches critical thinking, etc. Maybe sometime in the future, when I'm better qualified, I'll actually make that happen.
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

Post by Raesene »

Liberty Ferall wrote:
Thanas wrote:
Raesene wrote:[...]

They can believe whatever they want, but have to teach according to the guidelines of the education ministry - and those are not subject to parental votes.
Indeed. To wit, in Germany there is also a two-year mandatory training period after university in which it is made sure the teacher can do his/her job.
So you're saying someone could believe in YEC and still be an okay science teacher, in your view?
They might, but I have my doubts that somebody could manage that feat without letting their bias show. Such double think would enable comfortable living in Orwell's Oceania.
Teachers do not have a lot of freedom what they teach, and as YEC or other ideologies are uncommon over here, such behaviour would be noticed by their colleagues and have consequences.

Unrelated, but an example of consequences to fundamentalism:
A catholic priest managed to piss off enough people with fundamentalist comments (e.g. the Haiti quake was perhaps caused by God because Haitians follow vodoo-cults was a recent statement) that the Vatican cancelled his elevation to Weihbischof (usually the successor's position before an elderly bishop retires), and the church is usually quite resistant to public pressure.

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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

Post by Liberty »

Thanas wrote:
Liberty Ferall wrote:How do you define "brainwashing"?
There is no general definition for it that I would like to apply to this situation, but to my mind brainwashing in this situation would be generally using your authority as a parent to fill the heads of the children with views that have been scientifically disproved.
Well, if 48% of the American public believes in YEC, and they pass this on to their children, then 48% of Americans are brainwashing their children. I'm not happy with it, but that's the reality of it. Should these children be taken away?
Do conservative Christian parents not take their children to church,
I attend church semi-regularly. I rarely see children there. Not much evidence, I know, but even in a supposedly large and good church with lots of tradition and a great priest there are few children. THe children there are usually are taken out and go to a playground or a supervised playgroup in order not to disturb the service. Children in churches is generally frowned upon. Of course, this does not apply to evangelical christians here.
Weird. Weird, weird, weird. I attend a Catholic church at the moment, and around half of those in the pews are under 20, and there are always four or five babies in sight as well.

Why are children in churches frowned upon? Just because they're wiggly?
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

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Raesene wrote:Unrelated, but an example of consequences to fundamentalism:
A catholic priest managed to piss off enough people with fundamentalist comments (e.g. the Haiti quake was perhaps caused by God because Haitians follow vodoo-cults was a recent statement) that the Vatican cancelled his elevation to Weihbischof (usually the successor's position before an elderly bishop retires), and the church is usually quite resistant to public pressure.
Ha. That would happen here too, him being blocked for comments like that. Pat Robertson said that a few weeks ago, and everyone pretty much laughed at him (except die hard fundies, probably).
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

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I guess children being frowned upon in church varies from region to region. I´m from the south of Germany which tends to be more conservative and there was never a problem with kids in church. A lot of the people i know acutally were forced to go to church as children by their parents and a whole bunch were altar boys/girls.
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

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ray245 wrote:Doesn't interacting with people who aren't fundamentalist help a lot? Sending a child to a school allows him to interact with people who might not be fundamentalist, which is greatly helpful a child during his formative years.
Depends on where you're at in the US. Rural Georgia, for instance, is going to be composed of a ton of fundamentalists in public school as well, due to the fact that most of the population is fundamentalist Christian.

Plus, there's the fact that some people are going to gravitate toward fundamentalism, regardless of the diversity of people they've met, solely because of their intrinsic mental make-up.
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

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Liberty Ferall wrote:Well, if 48% of the American public believes in YEC, and they pass this on to their children, then 48% of Americans are brainwashing their children. I'm not happy with it, but that's the reality of it. Should these children be taken away?
What is your evidence of YECs brainwashing their children?
Weird. Weird, weird, weird. I attend a Catholic church at the moment, and around half of those in the pews are under 20, and there are always four or five babies in sight as well.

Why are children in churches frowned upon? Just because they're wiggly?
They are disruptive. Even to a church near Mainz they were taken out after a while. And I do not think it weird.
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

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Akhlut wrote:
ray245 wrote:Doesn't interacting with people who aren't fundamentalist help a lot? Sending a child to a school allows him to interact with people who might not be fundamentalist, which is greatly helpful a child during his formative years.
Depends on where you're at in the US. Rural Georgia, for instance, is going to be composed of a ton of fundamentalists in public school as well, due to the fact that most of the population is fundamentalist Christian.

Plus, there's the fact that some people are going to gravitate toward fundamentalism, regardless of the diversity of people they've met, solely because of their intrinsic mental make-up.
Sure, but at the very least, there is a better chance of the child getting exposed to the world and other people as opposed to home schooling.
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

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Thanas wrote:
Liberty Ferall wrote:Well, if 48% of the American public believes in YEC, and they pass this on to their children, then 48% of Americans are brainwashing their children. I'm not happy with it, but that's the reality of it. Should these children be taken away?
What is your evidence of YECs brainwashing their children?
Well, you said the following when I asked for a definition of "brainwashing:"
To my mind brainwashing in this situation would be generally using your authority as a parent to fill the heads of the children with views that have been scientifically disproved.
By this definition, if a parent tells their child that the world was created six thousand years ago by God, that would be brainwashing because YEC has been scientifically disproved.
Weird. Weird, weird, weird. I attend a Catholic church at the moment, and around half of those in the pews are under 20, and there are always four or five babies in sight as well.

Why are children in churches frowned upon? Just because they're wiggly?
They are disruptive. Even to a church near Mainz they were taken out after a while. And I do not think it weird.
It's weird compared to here. I mean, the fundamentalists, evangelicals, and Catholics I have had contact with all feel that teaching their beliefs to their children is very important, so of course they want to have the kids in church too. After all, their eternal salvation is at stake.
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

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Liberty Ferall wrote:What is your evidence of YECs brainwashing their children?
Well, you said the following when I asked for a definition of "brainwashing:"
To my mind brainwashing in this situation would be generally using your authority as a parent to fill the heads of the children with views that have been scientifically disproved.
By this definition, if a parent tells their child that the world was created six thousand years ago by God, that would be brainwashing because YEC has been scientifically disproved.
[/quote]

If thy force them to believe that stuff? Yes. And you know what, this kind of semantic wrangling you are engaging in now is exactly why I gave such a broad definition of brainwashing. What is your goal here? What are you trying to argue here?

It's weird compared to here. I mean, the fundamentalists, evangelicals, and Catholics I have had contact with all feel that teaching their beliefs to their children is very important, so of course they want to have the kids in church too. After all, their eternal salvation is at stake.
In Germany it is more probably a sense of order. Why should kids be forced to sit still for over two hours when it is not only impractible but also disruptive? Also, eternal salvation does not depend on kids always attending church, depending on the church you attend.
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

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Thanas wrote:
Liberty Ferall wrote:By this definition, if a parent tells their child that the world was created six thousand years ago by God, that would be brainwashing because YEC has been scientifically disproved.
If thy force them to believe that stuff? Yes. And you know what, this kind of semantic wrangling you are engaging in now is exactly why I gave such a broad definition of brainwashing. What is your goal here? What are you trying to argue here?
Well, we both agree that children should be taken from their parents in extreme circumstances (fundamentalist Mormons who marry off fourteen year olds after brainwashing them into thinking that their only role in life is to be a good, submissive plural wife and practice perfect obedience come immediately to mind). So, I'm trying to feel where the line is. What is okay and what isn't? At what point should children be taken from their parents? You said you're okay with parents teaching their children their religious beliefs, but you draw the line at "brainwashing." So I'm trying to understand how you're defining that. The provisional definition you gave seemed to indicate that anyone who teaches YEC to their children is brainwashing them. So I was checking if that's what you meant. Does that make sense?
It's weird compared to here. I mean, the fundamentalists, evangelicals, and Catholics I have had contact with all feel that teaching their beliefs to their children is very important, so of course they want to have the kids in church too. After all, their eternal salvation is at stake.
In Germany it is more probably a sense of order. Why should kids be forced to sit still for over two hours when it is not only impractible but also disruptive? Also, eternal salvation does not depend on kids always attending church, depending on the church you attend.
Yeah, I get that. If you want an extreme of what we have in many fundie churches in the U.S. today, you need only to turn to the Puritans. Church was an all day affair and children were constantly threatened with hell.
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

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Thanas wrote:I have no clue about US parental law, though it puzzles me that parents apparently are allowed to sabotage their children as they see fit.
My knowledge of Germany is limited, however, from what I gather US law tends to give the parents much more leeway than German law. Remember that many Americans have a deep, deep distrust for their own government.
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

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I just had a thought. Let's run with Thanas' argument and assume that homeschooling should be allowed in the United States, but only for academic reasons, and only because the U.S. public school system is not great. And of course, there should be regulations to ensure it is done well.

Problem: Everyone who was homeschooling solely for religious reasons, or for religious and academic reasons combined, will now say that they are homeschooling solely for academic reasons.

Solution: Homeschool regulations. I propose the following. Thoughts?

1. Only allow families where both parents have at least a year of college (or perhaps two? or even a full BA?) to homeschool (and Bible college doesn't count - it has to be accredited).

2. Require all homeschool families to register with their state, providing information like number of children, their ages, etc.

3. Provide a list of approved curriculum for each subject (this eliminates fundie textbooks).

4. Require a certain number of classes in each subject for graduation (physics, U.S. history, etc). Obviously, approved curricula must be used. (If these requirements are all fulfilled, perhaps the student should receive an official high school diploma from the state).

5. Require parents to turn in a curriculum plan before each school year. This should include what curriculum will be used for each subject for each child, etc. It must be approved, and may be rejected if it is inadequate.

6. At the end of the year, parents must turn in portfolios for each child, showing that they completed what they said they would.

7. At the end of each year, homeschool students must take standardized testing, and it must be administered by a licensed teacher. If a student does not show a base line of academic improvement (and it may vary from subject to subject), he can no longer be homeschooled.

8. I think it may also be beneficial to require that each family have a visit from a social worker each year, or once each semester. If the social worker determines that there is a problem, or finds that the kids are literally hermits, no social skills, etc, the family will no longer be allowed to homeschool.

I think that the above would really crack down on religious nut homeschoolers. The only problem I see is that it might eliminate the ability for flexibility and working with each child at their own pace, which I see as a major boon of homeschooling.
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

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Just a few thoughts on your ideas, some positive, some negative, some neutral.
Liberty Ferall wrote:1. Only allow families where both parents have at least a year of college (or perhaps two? or even a full BA?) to homeschool (and Bible college doesn't count - it has to be accredited).
At least two years of college for grades 1-8 (associate degree of some sort, basically).

At least a four-year degree for 9-12

This mimics in some ways the Catholic and several other religion-based private schools, which typically go 1-8 with the children typically going to public high school for 9-12. That system seems to work reasonably well and there is already a framework for it.

Parents who decide to homeschool should be able to acquire a two-year degree at a community college without a great deal of hardship. If, after 8 years (or whatever) they wish to continue homeschooling through high school then those first two years could be applied to a four-year degree. This would spread costs for educating the parents over a fair amount of time, which also allows for child care needs which I would count homeschooling to be part of.
2. Require all homeschool families to register with their state, providing information like number of children, their ages, etc.
Good idea. Homeschooling should not be a way of hiding children.
3. Provide a list of approved curriculum for each subject (this eliminates fundie textbooks).
As long as there is some actual choice in that curriculum, not solely 1 approved textbook per topic. For high school students (9-12) this might even be "from this list or a class in the same subject at a local college" which would certainly accommodate the very advanced students. It's not that unusual now for high school students in either public or private schools to do something like this (my public-school nephew took college-level math and computer science courses at University of Buffalo in New York starting around age 12 or 14). It might even be reasonable for there to be some tuition subsidy in such circumstances, as the option for early college could be an incentive to maintain high academic standards in the home school.

There might even be an opening here for "Associate's Degree in Homeschooling" that could be turned into a four-year education degree which would, incidentally, increase the pool of potential teachers in this country and provide a fall-back career for SAHP (stay at home parents) who are typically the ones doing the home schooling either in formal schools or as private tutors.
4. Require a certain number of classes in each subject for graduation (physics, U.S. history, etc). Obviously, approved curricula must be used. (If these requirements are all fulfilled, perhaps the student should receive an official high school diploma from the state).
I think we call that the "GED" right now. (General Educational Development, also known as General Equivalency Diploma). Despite the reputation of the test in some places as not as good as a high school diploma test takers actually have to score better in tested skills than 60% of actual high school graduates so, in fact, it is harder to pass the GED than to graduate high school.

(My Other Half took the GED due to being hospitalized too frequently his last two years of high school to keep up with classwork. He then went off to college. My two home schooled nephews took this test prior to applying for college. Five of my six uncles took this test as they were fighting WWII during what would normally be their high school years, and four them went on to get college degree afterwards. It's probably a more commonly taken option than most people realize).

Anyhow - yes, there is merit in requiring certain amounts of certain subjects to be taught, topped off by appropriate testing.
5. Require parents to turn in a curriculum plan before each school year. This should include what curriculum will be used for each subject for each child, etc. It must be approved, and may be rejected if it is inadequate.
If it is deemed inadequate, would the children then be forced into a public or private school? How many attempts at a submission for a given year are allowed? (I'm presuming that after an initial objection there would be at least one opportunity for revisions). Who judges the curriculum and by what criteria?
6. At the end of the year, parents must turn in portfolios for each child, showing that they completed what they said they would.
Great idea. What are the consequences if that doesn't happen or the work is inadequate? Who makes that judgment?
7. At the end of each year, homeschool students must take standardized testing, and it must be administered by a licensed teacher. If a student does not show a base line of academic improvement (and it may vary from subject to subject), he can no longer be homeschooled.
Does it have to be a licensed teacher, or would one of the many testing sites that already exist be adequate? For example, there are testing site that administer all sorts of tests - standardized educational testing, civil service exam, written pilot's exam - all in the same facility. Would that be acceptable? (Clearly, the site would have to have the capacity to administer the test)
8. I think it may also be beneficial to require that each family have a visit from a social worker each year, or once each semester. If the social worker determines that there is a problem, or finds that the kids are literally hermits, no social skills, etc, the family will no longer be allowed to homeschool.
Once every six months to examine the learning environment, study area, tools used, etc?
I think that the above would really crack down on religious nut homeschoolers. The only problem I see is that it might eliminate the ability for flexibility and working with each child at their own pace, which I see as a major boon of homeschooling.
I'm not sure how it would, so long as the criteria for judging the curriculum is also flexible. Perhaps the child is required to perform work in 4-5 mandated academic subjects (which need to be addressed anyway) but allowed X number of hours per day or week of "independent study". Such independent study might include the writing of papers/reports to satisfy language requirements, combing two subjects, as an example. Science study might also incorporate math (actually, it should) If there is a civics requirement does it matter if that requirement is fulfilled in three weeks or over the course of a year? Providing there is adequate planning and the children are learning what they should I don't think flexibility is a bad thing.

(I still like my sister's idea of taking her boys to gather road kills, clean and mount the skeletons, and then use them to study biology, comparative anatomy, and evolution with a side trip into medicine and forensics while observing the signs of fatal injury in said skeleton)

Homeschooled children should, as part of their educational plan, ALSO have mandated group activities with other children and exercise activities (either solo, in a gym, or as part of a sport team) to ensure proper socialization and health.
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Re: German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

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Liberty Ferall wrote: Well, we both agree that children should be taken from their parents in extreme circumstances (fundamentalist Mormons who marry off fourteen year olds after brainwashing them into thinking that their only role in life is to be a good, submissive plural wife and practice perfect obedience come immediately to mind). So, I'm trying to feel where the line is. What is okay and what isn't? At what point should children be taken from their parents? You said you're okay with parents teaching their children their religious beliefs, but you draw the line at "brainwashing." So I'm trying to understand how you're defining that. The provisional definition you gave seemed to indicate that anyone who teaches YEC to their children is brainwashing them. So I was checking if that's what you meant. Does that make sense?
No, because as I pointed out several times, it depends on the child and on the circumstances. One cannot make a blanket statement like "YEC=brainwashing" and I will not make one no matter how hard you try to force me into one. It is as always a question of specific circumstances.
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