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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

AdmiralKanos wrote:Ad-hominem fallacy; the point is not affected by the personal problems of the guy who launched the case. And there would be no money being wasted if the Congress simply decided to change it back to a less exclusionary form (and despite Marina's bizarre evasions, it's pretty goddamned obvious who "God" is in the pledge), which they could do in about five minutes if they weren't a bunch of jack-asses.

Honestly, the only reason I'm defending it - I think the change was stupid and rather silly myself - is the fact that it would be unpatriotic to change it back. National symbols are just that, and ultimately when you think of the fact that there were schoolchildren who recited the pledge with the words "under God" in it on 9/11, I can't imagine how anyone would want to modify it, nor should it be modified even if some do want it changed.

The fact that terrorists rammed planes into buildings does not change the fact that "under God" has absolutely no place in the Pledge. Or should we just throw civil rights out the window every time we're in the wake of a national tragedy? If I don't want to lay down and let people be delusional at the expense of my civil rights, that's my prerogative. "Unpatriotic" my fucking ass. It disrespects all the ideals the founding fathers strived for. They'd fucking vomit if they were alive today.

Yes, it's an entirely irrational argument. But a nation is more than a collection of people and a set of laws and a fixed definition of territory. Its history, culture, and ideals, the aspirations and the deeds of everyone in it, living or dead, have shaped it and given it a sort of life, at least within the minds of people - And that life should be appropriately honoured, the composite of the nation not stripped down and reduced through artificial means.

Appeal to tradition.
Admitting that the argument is irrational doesn't grant it any kind of validity or credibility. There is no rational argument in existence that justifies keeping "under God" in the Pledge, and there are plenty of perfectly rational ones around justifying its removal. What's the big fucking deal here? If it's "just two syllables," then people wouldn't be getting so pissy about its removal, would they?

RedImperator wrote: "God" refers to the God of the Old Testament. Period.

More likely it refers to the Christian God of both the Old and New Testaments, I should think. Seeing as there are a hell of a lot more Christians in the USA than Jews, and how important the New Testament is in many Christian sects.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Honestly, the only reason I'm defending it - I think the change was stupid and rather silly myself - is the fact that it would be unpatriotic to change it back.

Why?

National symbols are just that, and ultimately when you think of the fact that there were schoolchildren who recited the pledge with the words "under God" in it on 9/11, I can't imagine how anyone would want to modify it, nor should it be modified even if some do want it changed.

There were people who recited the pledge with the original word "indivisible" in it during World War 1 and 2. I guess they don't count? The version used by the men who died on the beaches of Normandy is unpatriotic?

Yes, it's an entirely irrational argument. But a nation is more than a collection of people and a set of laws and a fixed definition of territory. Its history, culture, and ideals, the aspirations and the deeds of everyone in it, living or dead, have shaped it and given it a sort of life, at least within the minds of people - And that life should be appropriately honoured, the composite of the nation not stripped down and reduced through artificial means.

That's just a long-winded appeal to popular opinion.

Durandal wrote:Do you know where those records can be found? I'd be interested in reading them and shoving them in my political science professor's face.

I'll see if I can dig them up. Unfortunately, the debates themselves were in secret and have been lost, but the votes themselves are a matter of public record.

EDIT: I'll have to wait until I get back to school to do it. The online Congressional Record database only goes back to 1994.

I love the "unpatriotic" argument. Giveme a fuckng break. I love this country, but I hate what this country has become. I am at the point where I am willing to leave this country things have gotten so bad.

Go ahead, call me unpatriotic all you want. I dont care, I refuse to live in a country where politicians can tell the entire country that I shouldnt be a citizen, where my civil rights can be curtailed and no one cares. Fuck that shit!

Then take into account that I am a strict constitutional constructionalist, I look around and see my representatives and senators spit on the bill of rights. Then to top it all off I have to go to school and have christianity shoved down my throat, my tax dallars(well if I had any income) will soon go to pay for the construction of churches, indoctrination of the nations children, and to charity organizations that can and will discriminate against me. Most people say god bless America. I say FUCK AMERICA! !!!!!!!!!!

Oh and on a side note. WAKE UP! Once you lose civil rights, they dont come back

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I love the "unpatriotic" argument. Giveme a fuckng break. I love this country, but I hate what this country has become. I am at the point where I am willing to leave this country things have gotten so bad.

Please do leave. If you think America is a horrible place you clearly know very little about the world. Millions come here every year because they know better.

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Oh and on a side note. WAKE UP! Once you lose civil rights, they dont come back

Then why did HUAC end? Civil rights have only improved in this country. Yes, there are concerns, and some of them are severe ones - but as long as the fundamental civil right, the right to keep and bear arms, is protected, then the country is fundamentally on the right track.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I love the "unpatriotic" argument. Giveme a fuckng break. I love this country, but I hate what this country has become. I am at the point where I am willing to leave this country things have gotten so bad.

Please do leave. If you think America is a horrible place you clearly know very little about the world. Millions come here every year because they know better.

And billions don't. Don't start this "America is the greatest place on Earth" jingoism. Most Canadians who go to the States do so strictly because of a job, and many of them eventually return.

There are lots of places on Earth which are much worse than the US. However, the US does not rank #1 on the UN's list of best places to live for many reasons, such as its sky-high murder rate, large population of (44% according to Time Magazine) fundie idiots, etc. Alyrium is just complaining because things are going the wrong way lately, which is true.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Oh and on a side note. WAKE UP! Once you lose civil rights, they dont come back

Then why did HUAC end? Civil rights have only improved in this country. Yes, there are concerns, and some of them are severe ones - but as long as the fundamental civil right, the right to keep and bear arms, is protected, then the country is fundamentally on the right track.

Please produce evidence that the right to keep and bear arms will prevent wrongdoings by the federal government in practice, as opposed to NRA wank-theory.

PS. And please explain that "unpatriotic" bit; I still don't understand how you can think reverting to the original version of the pledge would be unpatriotic. EDIT: never mind, I saw your subsequent post after I added this one.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I love the "unpatriotic" argument. Giveme a fuckng break. I love this country, but I hate what this country has become. I am at the point where I am willing to leave this country things have gotten so bad.

Please do leave. If you think America is a horrible place you clearly know very little about the world. Millions come here every year because they know better.

Yes I am fully aware of what this country stands for and that millions of people come here every year. That doesnt change the fact that power hungry politicians are curtailing our civil righs My right to privacy...gone. My right t freedom against searches and siezures...gone. Hell I can even be labled an enemy combatant and denied my right to due process. All I have to do is be a member of an organization that the govern ment doesnt find politically convienient.

I willstay for the next ten years, see how things go. if my some twist, the patriot acts, and total information awareness go away, my patriotism will return. But I refuse to stand by a country that spits in my face.

AdmiralKanos wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Honestly, the only reason I'm defending it - I think the change was stupid and rather silly myself - is the fact that it would be unpatriotic to change it back.

Why?

National symbols are just that, and ultimately when you think of the fact that there were schoolchildren who recited the pledge with the words "under God" in it on 9/11, I can't imagine how anyone would want to modify it, nor should it be modified even if some do want it changed.

There were people who recited the pledge with the original word "indivisible" in it during World War 1 and 2. I guess they don't count? The version used by the men who died on the beaches of Normandy is unpatriotic?

I'll concede this one. It's hard to find a way to defend the current pledge. It's a symbol of the Cold War - which was incredibly won, but at a great cost (A fifty year wound, indeed..). There are other ways to remember it than particular symbols like 50s propaganda inserted into our national insignia.

Yes, it's an entirely irrational argument. But a nation is more than a collection of people and a set of laws and a fixed definition of territory. Its history, culture, and ideals, the aspirations and the deeds of everyone in it, living or dead, have shaped it and given it a sort of life, at least within the minds of people - And that life should be appropriately honoured, the composite of the nation not stripped down and reduced through artificial means.

That's just a long-winded appeal to popular opinion.

Actually, no. The nation-soul is a philosophical concept I adhere to.

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Yes I am fully aware of what this country stands for and that millions of people come here every year. That doesnt change the fact that power hungry politicians are curtailing our civil righs My right to privacy...gone. My right t freedom against searches and siezures...gone. Hell I can even be labled an enemy combatant and denied my right to due process. All I have to do is be a member of an organization that the govern ment doesnt find politically convienient.

I willstay for the next ten years, see how things go. if my some twist, the patriot acts, and total information awareness go away, my patriotism will return. But I refuse to stand by a country that spits in my face.

Alyrium, I think you're being really hysterical about this. I've got concerns about the Patroit Act but jeez, this country is still one of the best places on Earth. Good luck trying to find better.

Darth Wong wrote:
PS. And please explain that "unpatriotic" bit; I still don't understand how you can think reverting to the original version of the pledge would be unpatriotic.

Well, on thinking about it, I'm starting to wonder if it would. If the national essence is ultimately an evolving and progressive force created by the collection of experiences and deeds and the will of the people, then the idea of the older pledge being subsumed - and then restored - isn't unreasonable.

The problem with that is that most people seem to like it just fine the way it is. Having the courts eliminate it summarily doesn't seem quite acceptable in that context.

Alyrium Denryle wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I love the "unpatriotic" argument. Giveme a fuckng break. I love this country, but I hate what this country has become. I am at the point where I am willing to leave this country things have gotten so bad.

Please do leave. If you think America is a horrible place you clearly know very little about the world. Millions come here every year because they know better.

Yes I am fully aware of what this country stands for and that millions of people come here every year. That doesnt change the fact that power hungry politicians are curtailing our civil righs My right to privacy...gone. My right t freedom against searches and siezures...gone. Hell I can even be labled an enemy combatant and denied my right to due process. All I have to do is be a member of an organization that the govern ment doesnt find politically convienient.

I willstay for the next ten years, see how things go. if my some twist, the patriot acts, and total information awareness go away, my patriotism will return. But I refuse to stand by a country that spits in my face.

You think you wont find the same shit everywhere else?

So you think things are so bad your willing to leave, but not until after you've completed your education, passed the time your most likely to be drafted if such was ever implemented, had to get a job and a few other things. Forgot it, you not going to be going anywhere.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The problem with that is that most people seem to like it just fine the way it is. Having the courts eliminate it summarily doesn't seem quite acceptable in that context.

In the 1960's, most people seemed to like Jim Crow laws just fine the way they were. Having the courts eliminate them summarily seemed quite acceptable in that context.

Darth Wong wrote: Please produce evidence that the right to keep and bear arms will prevent wrongdoings by the federal government in practice, as opposed to NRA wank-theory.

You mean you want me to provide proof of this in U.S. history?

Darth Wong wrote: In the 1960's, most people seemed to like Jim Crow laws just fine the way they were. Having the courts eliminate them summarily seemed quite acceptable in that context.

A Law is part of the State Institutes that actually in that case functioned in an oppressive fashion. This is part of the national symbology and does not perform the same function whatsoever.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

Darth Wong wrote: Please produce evidence that the right to keep and bear arms will prevent wrongdoings by the federal government in practice, as opposed to NRA wank-theory.

You mean you want me to provide proof of this in U.S. history?

I was thinking more along the lines of showing how popular uprisings have occurred by armed citizenry and actually forced the government to take or rescind actions where they would have been able to ignore mobs of people armed with rocks, knives, and Molotov cocktails.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

Darth Wong wrote: In the 1960's, most people seemed to like Jim Crow laws just fine the way they were. Having the courts eliminate them summarily seemed quite acceptable in that context.

A Law is part of the State Institutes that actually in that case functioned in an oppressive fashion. This is part of the national symbology and does not perform the same function whatsoever.

That distinction does not change the fact that your logic is fallacious; appeals to popular opinion cannot justify anything.

Stormbringer wrote:

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Yes I am fully aware of what this country stands for and that millions of people come here every year. That doesnt change the fact that power hungry politicians are curtailing our civil righs My right to privacy...gone. My right t freedom against searches and siezures...gone. Hell I can even be labled an enemy combatant and denied my right to due process. All I have to do is be a member of an organization that the govern ment doesnt find politically convienient.

I willstay for the next ten years, see how things go. if my some twist, the patriot acts, and total information awareness go away, my patriotism will return. But I refuse to stand by a country that spits in my face.

Alyrium, I think you're being really hysterical about this. I've got concerns about the Patroit Act but jeez, this country is still one of the best places on Earth. Good luck trying to find better.

You know I probably am over reacting but to be honest, when ones civil liberties are being curtailed in any way, it is probably better to over react than to under-react.

I probably will not ever be able to leave(unless it is for research purposes, future herpetologist after all) But that doesnt change the fact that I would like to.

Darth Wong wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

Darth Wong wrote: In the 1960's, most people seemed to like Jim Crow laws just fine the way they were. Having the courts eliminate them summarily seemed quite acceptable in that context.

A Law is part of the State Institutes that actually in that case functioned in an oppressive fashion. This is part of the national symbology and does not perform the same function whatsoever.

That distinction does not change the fact that your logic is fallacious; appeals to popular opinion cannot justify anything.

Foundation of democracy however.

Darth Wong wrote: I was thinking more along the lines of showing how popular uprisings have occurred by armed citizenry and actually forced the government to take or rescind actions where they would have been able to ignore mobs of people armed with rocks, knives, and Molotov cocktails.

Would actions in which armed forces mustered from the citizenry have either defeated the federal (or state antebellum ACW) government forces opposing them, or forced them to back down by being able to concentrate a greater force, be acceptable? In both cases the armed nature of the opposition would clearly be a factor in the outcome.

Stormbringer wrote:

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Yes I am fully aware of what this country stands for and that millions of people come here every year. That doesnt change the fact that power hungry politicians are curtailing our civil righs My right to privacy...gone. My right t freedom against searches and siezures...gone. Hell I can even be labled an enemy combatant and denied my right to due process. All I have to do is be a member of an organization that the govern ment doesnt find politically convienient.

I willstay for the next ten years, see how things go. if my some twist, the patriot acts, and total information awareness go away, my patriotism will return. But I refuse to stand by a country that spits in my face.

Alyrium, I think you're being really hysterical about this. I've got concerns about the Patroit Act but jeez, this country is still one of the best places on Earth. Good luck trying to find better.

I think he's going a little far, as well, but keep in mind that he's gay, as well. He probably sees a lot more shit than your average atheist.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

That distinction does not change the fact that your logic is fallacious; appeals to popular opinion cannot justify anything.

Foundation of democracy however.

No it isn't. The foundation of democracy is that the people have a right to be represented in government. It is NOT that the peoples' majority opinion must be right.