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Thanas wrote:A professional and loyal officer corps does not fully disintegrate into feuding warlords withing the span of less than four years.

I could be misremembering but wasn't there a source that said the only thing holding the Empire together was a use of Battle Meditation on a scale never seen before or after by Palpatine?

There's some EU good stuff. Unfortunately the really comprehensive things tend to get tripped up trying to rationalize the crap sometimes.

I'd personally like some sourcebooks for individual member states. Like Corellia, Kuat, or the former Alderaan. Hopefully not written by idiots with no sense of scale, but I suppose that might be asking too much.

Technically, more ICS-like stuff. Perhaps the equivalent of a Jane's, written in universe. Preferably by somebody technically minded. And illustrated not by the finger-painting the new essential guides seem to have devolved to.

I would like to see more technical books, preferebly some that delved farther into the EU as I'd like to have some hard number on the Executor-class' predecessor the Mandator-class as well as the Praetor-class Star Battlecruiser that the Rebels got the reactors from to power the Hoth Ion Cannon.

I'd also like to see a piece that isn't critical of the Empire, sure they were largely evil, but sources like the ISB indicate they engaged in large aid projects as well as spreading literacy to parts of the Galaxy that had never known it. I'd like to see a book where the Stormies are the good guys fighting legitimately labelled terrorist Rebel cells and fighting piracy.

Srelex wrote:

Havok wrote:

Abacus wrote: In fact, I would like to see the entire thing shit canned so we could actually get something good and consistent started after ROTJ.

To be honest, with any kind of vast fictional universe like this, you're bound to get varying qualities and inconsistencies.

Absolutely, but now we have a complete ground work as far as the movies go, and a more of a base to build on that is coming from GL in the form of the Clone Wars and the upcoming live action show.

i'll second the Imperial equivalent to Rogue Squadron. I liked the Fel Storyarc 'In The Empire's Service', and want more stories from this point of view.

Fel's abduction/defection from the Alliance to join Thrawn would be interesting. More Legacy-era (from the comics, not the books) would be interesting too.

Screw starfighters. Do something like Horatio Hornblower or Jack Aubry in the Imperial Navy. Midshipman in some local force, bounce from corvettes to Star Dreadnought across a dozen books. Everything from Academy hijinks to hickville patrol to Shadow Hand. See the galaxy from outside a damn cockpit for once.

A professional and loyal officer corps does not fully disintegrate into feuding warlords withing the span of less than four years.

Professional and loyal to who? To Palpatine. Who died. Then they started fancying themselves his successor and carved out their own satrapies. It says nothing about their professionalism or loyalty to him that they fought amongst themselves.

fractalsponge1 wrote:Screw starfighters. Do something like Horatio Hornblower or Jack Aubry in the Imperial Navy. Midshipman in some local force, bounce from corvettes to Star Dreadnought across a dozen books. Everything from Academy hijinks to hickville patrol to Shadow Hand. See the galaxy from outside a damn cockpit for once.

Starfighter will appeal more tot he public - the single man/woman whose actions directly influence his suvival, contrary to being a small keg in a capital ship, where a single being is often overlooked.

Raesene wrote:

fractalsponge1 wrote:Screw starfighters. Do something like Horatio Hornblower or Jack Aubry in the Imperial Navy. Midshipman in some local force, bounce from corvettes to Star Dreadnought across a dozen books. Everything from Academy hijinks to hickville patrol to Shadow Hand. See the galaxy from outside a damn cockpit for once.

Starfighter will appeal more tot he public - the single man/woman whose actions directly influence his suvival, contrary to being a small keg in a capital ship, where a single being is often overlooked.

Yeah, but we've seen successful fiction based on capital ship command- Hornblower and Aubrey in the Napoleonic Wars, the Honor Harrington series... it can be done.

The fighter pilot perspective in Star Wars is badly overpopulated, in my opinion.

Simon_Jester wrote:Yeah, but we've seen successful fiction based on capital ship command- Hornblower and Aubrey in the Napoleonic Wars, the Honor Harrington series...

Star Trek.

[slaps forehead] You're right.

Though that's a different genre than the novels that make up the backbone of the EU...

Simon_Jester wrote:Though that's a different genre than the novels that make up the backbone of the EU...

This is a bad thing how exactly...?

I'd like to read about Separatist holdouts being flushed out by the Empire, decades after the end of the Clone Wars. Droid armies and navies that just never shut down or warlords continuing the fight against the Empire, and show how some of these CIS commander leftovers plant the seed for the Rebel Alliance.

if i recall some seperatists joined the rebels

Darth Yan wrote:if i recall some seperatists joined the rebels

I know there's a Recusant-class Light Destroyer in Rebel possession in Star Wars Rebellion 4: My Brother, My Enemy Part 4.

fractalsponge1 wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:Though that's a different genre than the novels that make up the backbone of the EU...

This is a bad thing how exactly...?

Not, but what works in a TV series may not work so well in a novel. Then again, in this case, it probably will.

AATC-86 wrote:I'd like to read about Separatist holdouts being flushed out by the Empire, decades after the end of the Clone Wars. Droid armies and navies that just never shut down or warlords continuing the fight against the Empire, and show how some of these CIS commander leftovers plant the seed for the Rebel Alliance.

Mmm. Yeah, I'd like to see that too. Plus that gives you the opportunity to portray the Empire before the whole thing goes to full out Evil Military Dictatorship after Alderaan. There's still a Senate, and the Imperial Navy is still flying "in the name of the Senate and People of the Galaxy" in some obscure sense, even if they're very much Palpatine loyalists.

Mmm. Yeah, I'd like to see that too. Plus that gives you the opportunity to portray the Empire before the whole thing goes to full out Evil Military Dictatorship after Alderaan. There's still a Senate, and the Imperial Navy is still flying "in the name of the Senate and People of the Galaxy" in some obscure sense, even if they're very much Palpatine loyalists.

So would I, I wanted to see a finalized transition for the both republic navy to the later imperial navy and also a final transition and merging of Separatist and old republic loyalists into the later rebel alliance, since equipment wise that was what happened, since much Separatist equipment thematic echo the later rebel alliance, just the republic forces were direct ancestor the later imperial navy.

Havok wrote:And even then, as I pointed out, he doesn't just kill willy nilly even if you do fail him.

The novel implied Piett fear that he would.

As for 25,000 ISD, wasn't the issue regarding Zahn co-opting a number from WEG regarding number of sectors and the normal ISDs attached to it.... then assuming that's the entirity of Imperial naval forces.

fractalsponge1 wrote:Palpatine was supposed to have reserved a significant chunk of the military. Maybe that (in universe) explains why you hear nothing about the large reserve forces like Azure Hammer. That's a major problem with the emptiness of the chronology. Where did the central forces go, what were the Core Worlds doing, etc. The Atlas was a start, but there are still many gaps. At what point do you decide the existing numbers are all off? Like the 3 million clones BS. That's published, but manifestly idiotic. Thrawn couldn't possibly have taken over a third of the galaxy and held it with his flying column and a few hundred Dreadnaughts, and the known warlord factions that supposedly submitted to his authority don't have enough power to do it in combination. Maybe a lot of the military that Palpatine didn't hide was just poorly organized and bereft of direction from the center, frantically trying to keep everything together, but otherwise not doing much farther afield until someone like Thrawn or reborn Palpatine came around. I can hope for a major retcon and rationalization, but I'm not particularly hopeful that we'll get a good resolution to it.

The problem is the EU never really fleshed out a proper picture of the Empire fall and it won't until it chooses to actively retcon/delete massive parts of the EU.

There are potential retcons and indeed, the EU is going that direction.... but still refuses to delete shit that contradicts the workable solutions.

All we know is that the Imperial Fleet withdrew from many outlying worlds and Core/Major worlds exerted their own authority against the central government on Coruscant and other Imperial leaders, as disputes over who was the real leader of the government and loyal to Palpatine moved into conflict.
What's is written however focuses entirely on Trevadoc and Zsinj type warlords, ignoring the presence of Admiral Rogriss and stuff. Or even the Glove of Darth Vader series, which featured a "loyalist" group of Imperial moffs who moved against Coruscant for fear of them being disloyal to Palpatine regime.

Abacus wrote: However, if you are trying to find a RL historical example for the warlordism that consumed the post-Endor Empire, look no further than practically all of Chinese history. Particularly after the fall of the Manchu dynasty in the 1920s and 1930s. At any one time there were upwards of hundreds of miniature areas, regions, and sometimes large cities that were under the control of various different military warlords who mustered what power they could. Like how Pellaeon rallied the remaining Moffs and warlords into the Imperial Remnant, Chiang-Kai Shek rallied the various warlords into the Kuomintang to fight off the Japanese and later the communists (ultimately failing and forming a funnily similar "remnant" of Nationalist Chinese on Taiwan).

The Manchu dynasty didn't fall in the 1920-1930s. The fall of the dynasty was in 1911, in the double ten revolution. It took almost ten years for warlordism to become the prevalent fact of the Empire and even here, it was due more to the Chinese Parliament withdrawing support from Yuan Shi Kai and setting up another armed resistance against the dictator.
A parallel may be set up with regards to Sate Prestage and the loyal opposition, as well as Issard. But by Prestage era, the warlord era has already started.

PainRack wrote: The Manchu dynasty didn't fall in the 1920-1930s. The fall of the dynasty was in 1911, in the double ten revolution. It took almost ten years for warlordism to become the prevalent fact of the Empire and even here, it was due more to the Chinese Parliament withdrawing support from Yuan Shi Kai and setting up another armed resistance against the dictator.
A parallel may be set up with regards to Sate Prestage and the loyal opposition, as well as Issard. But by Prestage era, the warlord era has already started.

It was a broad comparison. Either way, my point was made. Thank you for the information.

PainRack wrote:

Havok wrote:And even then, as I pointed out, he doesn't just kill willy nilly even if you do fail him.

The novel implied Piett fear that he would.

You don't need the novel to tell you that if, y'know, you watch the movie. And again, he did NOT kill him so the point still stands.

Havok wrote:

PainRack wrote:

Havok wrote:And even then, as I pointed out, he doesn't just kill willy nilly even if you do fail him.

The novel implied Piett fear that he would.

You don't need the novel to tell you that if, y'know, you watch the movie. And again, he did NOT kill him so the point still stands.

I'm fairly sure that that was down to the fact that Firmus Piett was rather skilled at shifting blame onto others and getting credit when credit was due (such as how he engineered Ozzel's downfall, not that it wasn't going to happen eventually, but Piett definitely helped bring it about quicker to serve his career).

Thanas wrote: He did, including letting the crew of an outpost be eaten by carnivores on purpose because Vader felt a bond with them. Seriously, in the entire EU Vader comes across as a barely-sane lunatic sociopath.

Which actually fits in with the Anakin we see in the prequels but meh.

And admittedly, even in the movies, Vader throws men away, for example the famous line about him ordering ships into an asteroid field despite knowing he could loose many ISDs in doing so.

Or the times he's thrown storm troopers at enemies in a stupid manner. The boarding of the T4 is a particularily good example there.

TESB just stands out because he's utilizing Imperial resources and lives to carry out his personal little obsession.

Oh yeah, and he was going to kill Motti I think it was in ANH just for badmouthing his religion. That's hardly justified methinks.

Granted Palpy still outdoes him for stupid shit when it comes to Endor, but still.

Thanas wrote:A professional and loyal officer corps does not fully disintegrate into feuding warlords withing the span of less than four years.

From what I remember the Imperial Navy was a mishmash of what were called the "generationals" the people from professional military families, the Clone Wars/Republic era vets, the former local system defense force officers, etc. People basically like General Dodonna, and the "new breed" who were fanatically (rabidly) pro-Imperial, oft-times quite political, and in some (many?) cases conniving and underhanded bastards (although saying "political" might just cover that too.) Palpy (from what I recall of years old conversations with Publius on the matter) loved to set up situations where infighting would occur - he basically set everyoe off against everyone else to beneift him (Army vs Navy, brnaches of the Navy vs other branches, etc. to keep everyone too busy to bug him and to make them easier for ihm to manipulate. This of course means a degradation of the "quality" of the corps in some ways (a political or fanatical officer isn't always a good thing) but I figure he was balancing competing interests as best as he could.

In terms of the warlordism, I think it depends on the officers in quesiton. The Generationalis and other "old school" officers would likely either remain loyal to the Empire proper (which did still exist, even at a reduced time, until the DE era and thereafter as I recall) or would have reverted to their old "system/sector" scale loyalties that preceded the Empire, or gone over to the Rebels (this could explain where the REbels magically get all this military might from post Endor with which to fight the Imperials, in fact.) The fanatically Pro-Imperial would likely stay with the Core Empire unless they were assasinated or otherwise removed (again the aforementioned in-fighting.) The rest would probably go "independent" as warlords, pirrates, or whatever. I really don't think its an "either/or" type situation in any event, you could get parts of hte Navy going off in multiple directions quite easily - its not a single, monolithic entity, even if Palpy tried to make it "all human".

Stofsk wrote: Not according to the narrative. One ISD seems to be countered by 3 Dreadnaughts. This was when General Bel Iblis entered the fight in 'Dark Force Rising' IIRC.

Which would make 200 Dreadnaughts worth 66 ISDs, or thereabouts. And it doesn't matter anyway, because like I said, the point wasn't that Dreadnaughts were supercool and p. rad, it was that the Empire and New Republic fleets were more evenly matched now than they had ever been, and a fresh injection of ships would have tipped the balance to whoever got to them first.

As I recall 3 Dreadnoughts could sort of duke it ought at least in the short term, but it took the arrival of all six to actually overwhelm the Judicator at the end of Dark Force Rising (and evne then they were using ion cannons to do it)

I wouldn't even say "equivalence to ISDs" neccesarily matters anyhow - the value of tha Katana fleet to Thrawn wasn't in the numbers it added in absolute terms (which is going to be tiny no matter how you cut it) but in the fact it gave him some "unattached assets", even if second rate ones, with which he could execute attacks or other strategies with (bolster defences, whatever.)

I'm sure Thrawn had a huge fleet beyond what we actually saw him use in the books - its just that the vast majority of that would be involved in defensive tasks (holding territory, guarding supply lines, etc.) and thus is either unavailable (or extrmeely risky) for him to utilize against the NR without exposing himself. The NR is likewise strapped for vessels for various reasons (lack of shipping, conflict with the Warlords and Thrawn, etc.) and is basically in a stalemate (which was, I think, the underlying theme for most of the book - Thrawn was trying to garner ships as well as crews with which to begin conducting wars against hte Rebels.)

Once he snagged the Katana fleet, he had hundreds of ships with which to start breaking the stalemate. It may not be enough to give him swift victory, but its enough to start tilting the balance of the conflict in his favor, when combined with other things (like the clones) - alot of the threat and details in TTT were long term things, not short term "wonder weapon" insta-victories like some SW stories.

Overall it may seem minimalist (and it kinda is) but its not neccesarily inconsistent with the scope of things - its all in how you look at it.