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Yeah, I haven't even seen the CG series. Unfortunately, I can't just toss it off to Tartakovsky's mad exaggeration because it seems to show up in other stuff too (Battlefront 2).

The initial animated shorts are full of crap like that. Tartakovsky definitely went for style over substance with the cartoon. That's how we ended up with shit like the speederbike joust and the Separatist seismic tank.

The CG series is much better about keeping it toned down though.

I actually liked the stylization of the Tartakovsky shorts. Okay, yes the speederbike jousters make me cringe too, but for the most part the stylization made it feel really dynamic and fun.

The CG series on the other hand... ugh. I can't get past the faux claymation look of it.

Illuminatus Primus wrote: The end of The Godfather is the culmination of the "fall" of Michael Corleone. After which point being a bloodthirsted right bastard is what he's all about as a character. Anakin is supposed to still be somewhat admirable and hasn't completely "fallen" yet in AOTC. It would be like Michael killing all those people at 1 hour 20 min and it be like, "Well...he's not that bad yet."

Fair enough, but Kay already knows that Michael killed a police captain in cold blood -a scene that happened about midway through the movie.

She also had zero problem with associating with pretty much every major criminal in New York. She also knew exactly who and what Micheal's father was and still married into the family. Kaye has some other issues.

Formless wrote:I actually liked the stylization of the Tartakovsky shorts. Okay, yes the speederbike jousters make me cringe too, but for the most part the stylization made it feel really dynamic and fun.

The CG series on the other hand... ugh. I can't get past the faux claymation look of it.

Personally, I love the look of most of the CG in that series...it's the godawful writing that put me off of it.
The series itself may be fine and dandy, but I couldn't get past the first twenty minutes of the "movie", unfortunately.

If the LAATs are strictly being dropped from high-atmosphere as fast-attack dropships...eh...that, I suppose I can countenance. As long as they're not shown as some sort of spaceworthy craft...and it beats the hell out of drop pods.

Havok wrote:She also had zero problem with associating with pretty much every major criminal in New York. She also knew exactly who and what Micheal's father was and still married into the family. Kaye has some other issues.

I'm seriously baffled by this comparison. Sure, there's a vague similarity in that both situations involve a woman falling in love with a deeply flawed man, but that's really where the similarity ends. Anakin slaughtered dozens of innocent women and children. Michael, on the other hand, murdered a corrupt cop and a bunch of rival mafia thugs. Michael doesn't really cross the "moral event-horizon" until he murders his brother-in-law, but Kay doesn't even know about that. Furthermore, as I pointed out before, Kay and Michael knew each other since college, and Kay agreed to marry Michael because he promised to become legitimate. Really, it's easy for the audience to understand (without approving of Michael's behavior) why Kay would initially believe Michael was a good person, and continue to overlook Michael's crimes until she couldn't take it anymore.

But Padme met Anakin only a few days before he wantonly slaughtered dozens of people. Padme was immediately sympathetic, and the incident was never even referred to again for the rest of the movie. If anything, the Padme/Anakin relationship is a surreal, gross exaggeration of the Michael/Kay relationship. It's completely bizarre and totally unbelievable, given that Padme was portrayed as a paragon of pacifism in the first movie.

The CG series looks amazing, especially in HD. If you're judging it based on the pilot movie, I'd say you should give it another look, so long as you remember it is still for a younger audience, though it is getting quite dark.

On technical grounds alone Season 2 of the show beats the shit out of the pilot movie. As for writing, it makes Anakin a likeable character. He wasn't likeable in the prequels. Nuff said

Channel72 wrote:

Havok wrote:She also had zero problem with associating with pretty much every major criminal in New York. She also knew exactly who and what Micheal's father was and still married into the family. Kaye has some other issues.

I'm seriously baffled by this comparison.

Well first of all, I'm not making a comparison, I was just commenting that Kaye had some issues.

But since you brought it up... Why is it that Kaye, after knowing that Micheal, had not only killed a cop, but had now become the head of the fucking Corleone crime family still agreed to marry him? Yeah, she had some issues. Mainly with naivety.

Sure, there's a vague similarity in that both situations involve a woman falling in love with a deeply flawed man, but that's really where the similarity ends. Anakin slaughtered dozens of innocent women and children. Michael, on the other hand, murdered a corrupt cop and a bunch of rival mafia thugs.

You have a weird definition of 'innocent' as this is a group of people that routinely seem to kidnap, attack and kill the non Tusken population on Tattooine, with glee. (See the TPM race)

Michael doesn't really cross the "moral event-horizon" until he murders his brother-in-law, but Kay doesn't even know about that.

You are a fucking idiot. Michael crossed the "moral event-horizon" when he began to take over the operation of of a murdering, pimping, protection racket, drug dealing crime family after his return from Sicily. Killing Fredo is his ultimate act of being so fucking far past your "moral event-horizon" and so far gone and reprehensible, that it is the catalyst for him finally realizing what he has become.

Furthermore, as I pointed out before, Kay and Michael knew each other since college, and Kay agreed to marry Michael because he promised to become legitimate.

Oh he promised to become legitimate? Yeah, like I said Kay has issues.

Really, it's easy for the audience to understand (without approving of Michael's behavior) why Kay would initially believe Michael was a good person, and continue to overlook Michael's crimes until she couldn't take it anymore.

Uh, and it isn't easy for the audience to understand (without approving of Anakin's behavior) why Padme would initially believe Anakin was a good person, and continue to overlook Anakin's crimes until she couldn't take it anymore? You do remember the whole saved my entire planet through kindness, giving, bravery and courage thing from TPM don't you? I mean, I know it wasn't like, a big part of the movie or anything, but you might have noticed a little bit of that side plot.

Oh yeah, and he is supposed to be the greatest Jedi in the history of the order, but y'know, such minuscule details. I mean aside from that backgroud fluff, why would Padme give Anakin the benefit of the doubt.

But Padme met Anakin only a few days before he wantonly slaughtered dozens of people.

Uh... OK.

Padme was immediately sympathetic, and the incident was never even referred to again for the rest of the movie. If anything, the Padme/Anakin relationship is a surreal, gross exaggeration of the Michael/Kay relationship. It's completely bizarre and totally unbelievable, given that Padme was portrayed as a paragon of pacifism in the first movie.

What? Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about. Padme led the charge back to Naboo to fight the TF. She physically lead the assault team to retake her throne. How the fuck could anyone but an idiot think Padme was a 'paragon of pacifism'?

That aside, you do realize that Padme was in love with Anakin right? It sorta happened when he saved her planet from the droid armies, uh, like, 10 years before AOTC takes place. Y'know, one of those silly little side plots.
This love was there the whole time and was just realized when he came back into her life, so it is not like your claim that Padme just met Anakin holds any water. When you are in love with someone you do lots of stupid things for them, including not turn them in (to uh... no one, since the authorities on Tattooine view them as a menace and practically an enemy, oh right, if Tattooine wasn't already controlled by gangsters) for killing the people that just kidnapped and killed their mom.
I mean, I know the majority of people on this board are all high and mighty, but if you could punish the people that just killed your mom/son/daughter/wife with impunity however you saw fit in a cloud of rage, in a situation where there are effectively zero repercussions, no one is going to really think you are all of a sudden a horrible person if you avenge that death with death.

If anything it is Kay that is completely fucked up in comparison to Padme. Micheal is openly the leader of the biggest crime family in the country, while Anakin is a fucking COP. I mean, really?

Havok wrote:But since you brought it up... Why is it that Kaye, after knowing that Micheal, had not only killed a cop, but had now become the head of the fucking Corleone crime family still agreed to marry him? Yeah, she had some issues. Mainly with naivety.

I haven't seen the movie in a while, but didn't Kay marry Michael well before he became the head of the crime family? You can call Kay naive for believing Michael's promise to become legitimate, but Kay's naivety is at least humanly understandable. The last scene in the movie is dramatic precisely because Kay finally realizes what Michael has become, but it is too late because they're already married. In constrast, Padme married Anakin after she knew he slaughtered women and children.

Havok wrote:You have a weird definition of 'innocent' as this is a group of people that routinely seem to kidnap, attack and kill the non Tusken population on Tattooine, with glee. (See the TPM race)

Don't be retarded. Obviously, the Tusken children are innocents.

Havok wrote:You are a fucking idiot. Michael crossed the "moral event-horizon" when he began to take over the operation of of a murdering, pimping, protection racket, drug dealing crime family after his return from Sicily. Killing Fredo is his ultimate act of being so fucking far past your "moral event-horizon" and so far gone and reprehensible, that it is the catalyst for him finally realizing what he has become.

Wrong. A character only crosses the "moral event horizon" when he becomes totally irredeemable in the eyes of the audience. Obviously, this is somewhat subjective, but in my opinion Michael is still theoretically redeemable until he kills his brother-in-law. Michael acting as the head of the crime family is not enough to convince the audience that he is irredeemable, because it's always been a part of his life, even though he initially wanted nothing to do with it. The tragedy of Michael Corleone is that he wanted a normal life, but due to circumstance he became wrapped up in his family's organization until he ended up replacing his father after Sonny died. But it wasn't until Michael killed Carlo and then lied about it to Kay that he truly became a monster.

Havok wrote:Uh, and it isn't easy for the audience to understand (without approving of Anakin's behavior) why Padme would initially believe Anakin was a good person, and continue to overlook Anakin's crimes until she couldn't take it anymore?

Are you serious? Anakin crosses the "moral event horizon" like two days after meeting Padme, by slaughtering women and children. Yet Padme still marries him later.

Havok wrote:You do remember the whole saved my entire planet through kindness, giving, bravery and courage thing from TPM don't you? I mean, I know it wasn't like, a big part of the movie or anything, but you might have noticed a little bit of that side plot.

And this somehow cancels out Anakin's wanton slaughter of innocent women and children?

Havok wrote:Oh yeah, and he is supposed to be the greatest Jedi in the history of the order, but y'know, such minuscule details. I mean aside from that backgroud fluff, why would Padme give Anakin the benefit of the doubt.

And this somehow cancels out Anakin's wanton slaughter of innocent women and children? Besides, the fact that he was supposed to be the greatest Jedi in history should have set off even more red flags here.

Havok wrote:What? Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about. Padme led the charge back to Naboo to fight the TF. She physically lead the assault team to retake her throne. How the fuck could anyone but an idiot think Padme was a 'paragon of pacifism'?

Regardless, she is clearly portrayed as a defender of democracy and diplomacy. In Episode II she arrives on Coruscant to vote against the creation of an army. The way she reacts to Anakin's confession is completely out of character.

Havok wrote:That aside, you do realize that Padme was in love with Anakin right? It sorta happened when he saved her planet from the droid armies, uh, like, 10 years before AOTC takes place. Y'know, one of those silly little side plots.
This love was there the whole time and was just realized when he came back into her life, so it is not like your claim that Padme just met Anakin holds any water. When you are in love with someone you do lots of stupid things for them, including not turn them in (to uh... no one, since the authorities on Tattooine view them as a menace and practically an enemy, oh right, if Tattooine wasn't already controlled by gangsters) for killing the people that just kidnapped and killed their mom.

Are you saying Padme was in love with an 8-year old? Meeting someone when they're 8, and then meeting the same person 10 years later is essentially like meeting two different people.

Havok wrote:I mean, I know the majority of people on this board are all high and mighty, but if you could punish the people that just killed your mom/son/daughter/wife with impunity however you saw fit in a cloud of rage, in a situation where there are effectively zero repercussions, no one is going to really think you are all of a sudden a horrible person if you avenge that death with death.

Anakin didn't just avenge the death of his mother; he wiped out an entire tribe, including women and children. You're trying to minimize the atrocity here, for the sake of your ridiculous comparison with the Godfather.

Wait, so is anyone forgetting that the entire planet saving thing was entirely by accident on Anakin's part? Though, I suppose Padme wouldn't really care, but yeah. Then there's the whole falling in love with an 8 year old at 14 that's kind of weird. All the more evidence that Padme might be a little off in her own mentality. Which might explain her whole easy forgiveness of the Tusken slaughter.

I'm not remembering anything from the movies that indicates Padme was attracted in a romantic way to Anakin when he was a child (God I hope not). They were friends, sure, but I really didn't have the sense that there was anything more to it than that.

So I'm going to have to ask for a source.

The acceptance/forgiveness of Ani slaughtering the Tusken village I can buy, actually, given that they DID murder his mother so it's not like he didn't have motive and he WAS heartbroken about it afterwards. ' I'm a Jedi. I'm supposed to be better than this.'

Batman wrote:The acceptance/forgiveness of Ani slaughtering the Tusken village I can buy, actually, given that they DID murder his mother so it's not like he didn't have motive and he WAS heartbroken about it afterwards. ' I'm a Jedi. I'm supposed to be better than this.'

Murdered his mother in a fairly horrifying way, too. Human juicebox...ugh.

Here's another thing: what do we know about Tusken society? Do, for instance, the women fight as well (I think they fight in KOTOR, for what that's worth)? After Anakin kills the first few Tuskens, he's basically got a fight with the entire tribe on his hands anyway.

I don't really have a problem with Anakin going nuts after witnessing his mother dying in his arms, who had been kidnapped and tortured for what appears to be no good reason other than downright sadism on the part of the Tuskens. Killing the kids sounds a bit harsh, but for all we know those kids had gaffi sticks and rushed him. It's not like there aren't cultures that exist today which employ child soldiers.

The arguments used to justify the Tusken slaughter were also used by European colonists to justify what they did in the New World. "Those people have a culture which practices barbaric acts, therefore its okay to slaughter the lot of them".

Here's another thing: what do we know about Tusken society? Do, for instance, the women fight as well (I think they fight in KOTOR, for what that's worth)? After Anakin kills the first few Tuskens, he's basically got a fight with the entire tribe on his hands anyway.
Here's another thing: what do we know about Tusken society? Do, for instance, the women fight as well (I think they fight in KOTOR, for what that's worth)? After Anakin kills the first few Tuskens, he's basically got a fight with the entire tribe on his hands anyway.

If the Tusken's are anything likes the tribes on earth then no. The physically stronger men would do the hunting and fighting whilst the women would raise the children and tend to the housework.

The acceptance/forgiveness of Ani slaughtering the Tusken village I can buy, actually, given that they DID murder his mother so it's not like he didn't have motive and he WAS heartbroken about it afterwards. ' I'm a Jedi. I'm supposed to be better than this.'

Murdering everyone in the village? What, was everyone taking part in the torture? Where they forming a line like the movie airplane?

stormthebeaches wrote:The arguments used to justify the Tusken slaughter were also used by European colonists to justify what they did in the New World. "Those people have a culture which practices barbaric acts, therefore its okay to slaughter the lot of them".

Here's another thing: what do we know about Tusken society? Do, for instance, the women fight as well (I think they fight in KOTOR, for what that's worth)? After Anakin kills the first few Tuskens, he's basically got a fight with the entire tribe on his hands anyway.
Here's another thing: what do we know about Tusken society? Do, for instance, the women fight as well (I think they fight in KOTOR, for what that's worth)? After Anakin kills the first few Tuskens, he's basically got a fight with the entire tribe on his hands anyway.

If the Tusken's are anything likes the tribes on earth then no. The physically stronger men would do the hunting and fighting whilst the women would raise the children and tend to the housework.

The acceptance/forgiveness of Ani slaughtering the Tusken village I can buy, actually, given that they DID murder his mother so it's not like he didn't have motive and he WAS heartbroken about it afterwards. ' I'm a Jedi. I'm supposed to be better than this.'

Murdering everyone in the village? What, was everyone taking part in the torture? Where they forming a line like the movie airplane?

Look at it from an IU perspective. The Tuskens are generally recognized as savages that plauge the locals, so even if killing them isn't justifiable from an OOU POV, it can be rationalized if we approach them from an IU mindset.

I doubt it helps that Anakin's last experience with Tuskens before that point was them shooting at his podracer for the hell of it.

The idea that the whole tribe was guilty or were attacking him-- right down to the children-- is nothing more than a post hoc rationalization for which there is no evidence. I see no reason to give Anakin any more sympathy than I already had. Zero.

His mom gets kidnapped and tortured to death, a death which happens in Anakin's arms, and he gets no sympathy from you. Nice.

Yes, because that's a perfectly reasonable reason to kill numerous people and their kids who had nothing to do with that event. And then show almost no remorse over it. He's not insane, just angry, and he's from an order which is based on learning self control. Tell me, why should I feel any sympathy for the little shit? He does absolutely nothing to deserve it.

Who said anything about reasonable? OF COURSE that was overboard. But it was a perfectly understandable overreaction given what they did to his mother even leaving alone that from what we know about Sand People people culture it IS entirely possible that the entire tribe DID wind up attacking him. Yes, he's from an order that emphasizes self control. He's ALSO already shown that he's not particularly GOOD at it.
Wether or not YOU feel like sympathizing with Anakin, PADME doing so looks entirely believable to me, especially as he DOES show remorse. They apparently abducted and tortured his mother to death for the heck of it, she died in his arms, and he STILL feels guilty for what he did.
Again, 'Im a Jedi. I should be better than this.'

The question is, who ISN'T better than that who isn't a psychopath?

Everybody who sees his mother tortured to death for no apparent reason by people who as it seems generally terrorize the rest of Tattooine's population for the heck of it?