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Patroklos wrote:Thats just another plot whole. You are right, Luke should have figured this all out via StarGoogle as soon as he entered mainstream galactic circles. At the very least someone from the Clone War days like Dodanna or Mothma should have said "Skywalker, our new JEDI KNIGHT hero....where have I heard that name before...."

To Lukes credit before then he apparently didn't even know who Vader was in his contemporary roll let alone a hero from a war decades earlier. I can forgive that, most people probably can't name half Obamas cabinet.

Don't be obtuse. ANH establishes that people didn't know that Anakin and Vader were the same person, because Red Leader even says that he met Anakin once as a boy. If Vader's true identity really were known, then he wouldn't have referred to Anakin in such a positive manner.

Darth Yan wrote:I remeber in Dark lord that there were rumors that he was one of dooku's men. Also, the burns would have connected him to mustafar, which was a covert mission (if it was known that anakin had murdered the council without trial that would have been hard to explain)

What? That makes no sense. His burns wouldn't have connected him to Mustafar, because as a covert op no one is supposed to know about it. People wouldn't be able to make the connection because as far as they're concerned there's no connection to make.

Patroklos wrote:Where are you getting that nobody knew Vader's background? There is no reason to hide it, his status as a hero of the Republic and slayer of the rebellious Jedi would be an tremendous tool for bothVader and Palpantine to use to their advantage.

If you think Vader just materialized out of thin air to become a leading member of court and the the Emperors right hand man then we are left with evil cartoon cackling again. That might work for a shaddow muscle goon like Darth Maul, but Vader was front and center from day one.

Yeah, sorry, it far better fits Palpatine's character and motives to have Vader as a mythical monster than an old war hero. Time and again in the movies and out, it's pounded into our heads that Palpatine's near sole motive is to rule by fear, and Vader being a masked, caped monster, unrivalled in combat ability, willing to kill at the drop of a hat, at Palpy's beck and call, is far more fearsome then trying to present a 'good' public image as a former war hero.

As for giving the impression that this makes certain characters into cackling despots... well, like it or not, Star Wars *is* based at least somewhat off the whole "good vs. evil" thing, and Palpy's definitely on the evil side. I personally prefer more shades of gray, but I'm not Lucas.

Thats just another plot whole. You are right, Luke should have figured this all out via StarGoogle as soon as he entered mainstream galactic circles. At the very least someone from the Clone War days like Dodanna or Mothma should have said "Skywalker, our new JEDI KNIGHT hero....where have I heard that name before...."

Yeah, but they're also thinking, feeling humans. Sure, they might have known that Vader was Anakin, but they also have to take into consideration: Is it a good idea to tell your bright young hero, possibly the sole hope of the Rebellion, that his father is actually the mass-murdering, legendary right-hand man of Palpatine? Obi knew Luke better than anyone, and he was more than hesitant about this, it's entirely human to withhold information like that for the sake of the recipient's emotional stability.

is it concievable for vader to order the cops to keep their ears out for rumors of obi wan?

There would have been many worlds to check so vader and palpy would have no reason to single out tatooine. obi wan has no connection to the world.

Darth Yan wrote:There would have been many worlds to check so vader and palpy would have no reason to single out tatooine. obi wan has no connection to the world.

Except for that one really huge connection involving the fact that that was the place where Anakin met Obi-Wan and was rescued from slavery. If Vader was conducting even a halfway competent investigation, he would be devoting resources to pretty much every planet he knew Obi had been and done things on, and Tattoine is likely very high on that list, below Coruscant, but likely at the same level as Geonosis.

if i were the dark lord i'd look for worlds were obi wasn't involved, because it would be easy to hide.

common plot holes that can be adressed

1.) A census: Given that the sheer amount of murderous loons and intergalactic space hillbillies who shoot first and ask questions never, any census officer would need military protection; if they focused on tatooine, it would set a precedent for other more violent worlds, resulting in resources being diverted at potentially inopportune moments. And Given that the military is involved in a lot of work, no one's going to see the point.

2.) There are countless worlds for obi wan to hide, so there is no reason to check tatooine.

3.) Vader wouldn't have a vision of luke unless certain criterion were met (given what we see of visions in the films). in this case, luke would have to be fully grown, open to the force, and would have had to start training.

4.) Empire doesn't use infinite energy (since they obviously use technobabble bs to avoid using infinite energy), so their processing isn't perfect; it's good, but it's still going to have some slowness, the occasional bug or viruses, and other issues.

5.) The only people who would find the news important are palpy and vader and their agents; the average policeman would assign no connection to an old man who lives in the desert with a surname that could easily be shared by thousands to the jedi hero, especially since the only sources aren't the most reliable (the farmers are uneducated at best and some are involved in criminal dealings.) Especially since most people don't believe in the force.

Honestly, the series isn't perfect, but it's still damn good.

In my opinion letting the Rebel Commando land on Endor instead of capturing Shuttle Tydirium in space via tractor beam struck me as something of a plot hole, since doing so would A, deliver Luke right into Vader's and the Emperor's hands and B, quite efficiently prevent the sabotage of the Death Star Shield. I don't think any reason why the imperials had to let the commando set foot on Endor was given in the movie.

Maybe they'd didn't want to take the risk of the rebels letting off an alert beacon, or self-destructing.

Srelex wrote:Maybe they'd didn't want to take the risk of the rebels letting off an alert beacon, or self-destructing.

Self-destruct might be the reason, especially due to Vader's and Palpatine's obsession of converting Luke. That makes me wonder if they had simply destroyed the shuttle if Vader had not felt Luke's presence.

An alarming beacon doesn't seem to be something to worry about for the Imperials considering the advanced jamming technologies available to them and the SW universe in general.

Maybe, but given that Vader knows that Luke can communicate telepathically with the Force (and doesn't know Leia's aboard) it may be a case of them simply not wanting to take the risk.

Maybe, but given that Vader knows that Luke can communicate telepathically with the Force

How would he know this? Plus he didn't know Leia was his daughter until his fight with Luke. But regardless he knows enough about the force to not want to take the risk and there could be rebel agents either on the ships or DS construction crew that could report back that the strike team has failed.

That makes me wonder if they had simply destroyed the shuttle if Vader had not felt Luke's presence.

Piett was going to let the shuttle pass because their codes cleared before Vader did anything. How the rebels expected the disappearance of their shuttle rather than its landing at the shuttle pad to not be noticed is a good plot hole though.

An alarming beacon doesn't seem to be something to worry about for the Imperials considering the advanced jamming technologies available to them

They couldn’t have been jamming communications at the time because they were talking to the shuttle, it may take some time to charge a jamming field to block out all communications, which is not something we have seen them have the capability of doing. Even with the extreme jamming of the DS1 which was warping space itself coms were operating effectively between the fighters and the rebel base. Although it might be an assumption that because local coms was operating then coms was possible over longer distances.

Yeah, something tells me that the devices that allow instantaneous interstellar communications are not the same ones used for relatively small distances within a single planet's orbit. It is certainly possible to jam long range communications without doing so to short range ones even for us.

Darth Tanner wrote:
How would he know this?

Remember the little chat they had when Luke was on the escaping Falcon towards the end of TESB?

If the rebels were going to attack the shield generator immediately, then having the shuttle disappear off the grid is ok. That they waited a day, IIRC with all the Ewok stuff, then it becomes less and less plausible. The sheer amount of traffic in the construction area would make the disappearance of a single shuttle a minor foot note in the daily log but after a day or so someones gotta say "Hey wait a minute, we're missing one."

Perhaps someone did notice, but just saw it as a glitch or an oversight, or maybe was unable to get anyone of significance to notice before the battle began.

Metahive wrote:In my opinion letting the Rebel Commando land on Endor instead of capturing Shuttle Tydirium in space via tractor beam struck me as something of a plot hole, since doing so would A, deliver Luke right into Vader's and the Emperor's hands and B, quite efficiently prevent the sabotage of the Death Star Shield. I don't think any reason why the imperials had to let the commando set foot on Endor was given in the movie.

Did you miss the bit where the Emperor explains everything has been his plan all along? He leaked the code and Vader was on hand to let the shuttle through in case a lackey got trigger happy. His plan was to bring Luke to a point of maximum despair as all his friends died about him.
Not the brightest of plans, but as it's been pointed out already Palps was a cackling villian of the old school.

dworkin wrote:

Metahive wrote:In my opinion letting the Rebel Commando land on Endor instead of capturing Shuttle Tydirium in space via tractor beam struck me as something of a plot hole, since doing so would A, deliver Luke right into Vader's and the Emperor's hands and B, quite efficiently prevent the sabotage of the Death Star Shield. I don't think any reason why the imperials had to let the commando set foot on Endor was given in the movie.

Did you miss the bit where the Emperor explains everything has been his plan all along? He leaked the code and Vader was on hand to let the shuttle through in case a lackey got trigger happy. His plan was to bring Luke to a point of maximum despair as all his friends died about him.
Not the brightest of plans, but as it's been pointed out already Palps was a cackling villian of the old school.

Having his friends strapped to torture tables would have gotten him more dispair

"Your resistance causes your friends pain, and your fleet has no way of knowing that there is no way to drop the shields! It's truely hopeless!" (Cackling).

Hell, make it so that the torture happens at the flip of a switch, and Vader and Palpatine are in the way of Luke rescuing his friends (who are like, on the wall or something), and that would really push Luke to flip out.

How about just drop the overly complicated plan in the first place, finish the DSII, and start blowing up worlds until Luke surrenders?

Surely Luke would take the death of a few hundred billion to heart, especially if it included places like Dac.

How about just drop the overly complicated plan in the first place, finish the DSII, and start blowing up worlds until Luke surrenders?

Surely Luke would take the death of a few hundred billion to heart, especially if it included places like Dac.

Sure go on blowing up planets giving more sypathy for the rebels while at the same time making more rebels in the process.

Stupid fuck.

Yeah, because I can't think of any examples of powers going round raising places until they were pacified. Thats certainly never worked in history before. No sir, totally unheard of. Those Romans? Myth. Mongols? Lies. Japanese around 1945? Just a legend.

STUPID FUCK!!!!! Ahhhh snap!

It is totally unheard of for an empire to raze their own population, you stupid fuck. The Romans, Mongols and Japanese, as ruthless as they were towards populations they were conquering, never turned their wholesale destruction against other Romans, Mongols or Japanese. Once you joined the Roman empire and fulfilled your civic duties, you were a Roman citizen and enjoyed all the privileges and protections thereof. The Mongols and Japanese were united by tribalism — their violence was directed outwards and at other populations. In any case, as long as you fulfilled your duties as a Roman, Mongol or Japanese, violence was not directed against you.

What you propose the Galactic Empire to do is to do exactly what the Roman, Mongol or Japanese empires never did: direct violence indiscriminately at its own population. This is politically unsustainable — the reason you are in the Empire is to gain the protection thereof. If joining the Empire does not gain their protection, then it doesn't matter if you join or not — your planet may be blown away at any time. This is not a recipe for loyalty.

Patroklos wrote:How about just drop the overly complicated plan in the first place, finish the DSII, and start blowing up worlds until Luke surrenders?

Surely Luke would take the death of a few hundred billion to heart, especially if it included places like Dac.

The second the Empire pulled that, they'd be faced with ever single planet merging their defense forces and launching an all out assault on the Death Star + Coruscant. Then there is a good chance every mercanary and criminal would do that as well.

You don't clean your own house by shitting in the corner.

Idiot.

Wyrm wrote:What you propose the Galactic Empire to do is to do exactly what the Roman, Mongol or Japanese empires never did: direct violence indiscriminately at its own population. This is politically unsustainable - the reason you are in the Empire is to gain the protection thereof.

And yet the Empire did exactly this to the population of Alderaan.

Channel72 wrote:

Wyrm wrote:What you propose the Galactic Empire to do is to do exactly what the Roman, Mongol or Japanese empires never did: direct violence indiscriminately at its own population. This is politically unsustainable - the reason you are in the Empire is to gain the protection thereof.

And yet the Empire did exactly this to the population of Alderaan.

Which was known to harbor dissident elements. And they did suffer for it.

The point is, one planet will scare many and make many rebel. But to go "Fuck this shit" and start blowing away planets to have one man turn to the dark side? And people think movie Palpatine is a psychpathic idiot.