StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Ok, bask in my Glorious Draconic Self

I can't open your sheet.

Try it now. I forgot to put it on public.

That did it. Nice strength, looks like the party found a new pack mule. xD

EDIT: Also that makes 7 of 9 so far.

Here's mine, now fit for public consumption: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.p ... tid=224640

Looks good.

Norade, some house rules questions.

1) Are we not playing with encumbrance or do we have looser encumbrance rules? A lot of people are walking around with heavy loads on, and I think a few people are actually over their max load. I am just curious because I would definitely buy some armour if the encumbrance rules are being enforced less strictly. Otherwise my 9.75 lbs light load is a bitch for finding usable items.

2)How are you handling the skills=metagame problems? I know I will hit the do goofy shit with perform cap at around level 3-5 and while comical, I don't think I should really be awing powerful outsiders when I can only cast 1st level spells. Knowledge skills can also get really funky like this. I'm guessing you'll just ignore the stupider effects and change the DCs on the "Do the impossibles" that aren't really that impossible.

3) Do you generally do "Magic Marts", do you have dedicated town crafters who you have to wait for them to make items or do you make item gathering an actual task. This mainly just affects how my character will interact with treasure, but I am a dragon and interacting with treasure is my most important social interaction.

BTW if you are in my party and can lift 40lbs, you will be carrying me at some point. Be ready to touch a font of pure draconic power.

Dark Hellion wrote:Norade, some house rules questions.

1) Are we not playing with encumbrance or do we have looser encumbrance rules? A lot of people are walking around with heavy loads on, and I think a few people are actually over their max load. I am just curious because I would definitely buy some armour if the encumbrance rules are being enforced less strictly. Otherwise my 9.75 lbs light load is a bitch for finding usable items.

I would assume some items in backpacks would be loaded into saddle bags. If not people would be encumbered. As for you, I have a funny feeling you're going to be finding some rings and bracers pretty soon.

2)How are you handling the skills=metagame problems? I know I will hit the do goofy shit with perform cap at around level 3-5 and while comical, I don't think I should really be awing powerful outsiders when I can only cast 1st level spells. Knowledge skills can also get really funky like this. I'm guessing you'll just ignore the stupider effects and change the DCs on the "Do the impossibles" that aren't really that impossible.

Generally, it hasn't come up. However it will basically be like an STGOD, you do things purely to fuck with my game and for each outside you awe you gain a critic. For other checks it will depend. Basically I see it as don't try anything you wouldn't allow and don't overshadow others in their area of expertise if you can help it.

3) Do you generally do "Magic Marts", do you have dedicated town crafters who you have to wait for them to make items or do you make item gathering an actual task. This mainly just affects how my character will interact with treasure, but I am a dragon and interacting with treasure is my most important social interaction.

I tend to do a bit of all the styles. Somewhat tailored treasure, exotic things need to be crafted, but you can generally find most things you'll want in a magic store. This is Eberron after all, and this game is already gathering a fast paced pulp adventure feel.

BTW if you are in my party and can lift 40lbs, you will be carrying me at some point. Be ready to touch a font of pure draconic power.

Get you a wand and call you a turret system. xD

Hawkwings wrote:Sheesh, way too much information. Remember I'm a noob here! But thanks. I'm gonna draft up a level 1 ranger to start, and explore from there.

Always think well about what is going to be your first level! You get two advantages: Four times the skillpoints and full HP. The latter is not that big a difference, but the former is! And the scout gets 8 more skillpoints in that case compared to the Ranger, which is two maxed skills more.



Well, here is my proposal for you:
Scout 1 (look at the character sheet). Tons of usefull skills (you need to take it as your first level, else you do not get as man skillpoints).
Ranger 1: +1 BAB, +2 Reflex/Fortitude Save, Track, 1 Favored Enemy, Wild Empathy, Ability to use Longbows
Fighter 1: +1 BAB, +2 Fortitude, +1 Talent (take Weapon Focus for your bow) - 1 Talent from Levelling (Take Swift Hunter)
Ranger 2: +1 BAB, +1 Reflex/Fortitude Save, Combat Style (equivalent to Rapid Shot, one extra talent), +1 AC while Skirmishing (due to the Swift Hunter Talent)
Scout 2: +1 BAB, +1 Reflex Save, Battle Fortitude +1, Uncanny Dodge
Scout 3: +1 BAB, +1 Fortitude/Will Save, Fast Movement (+10 ft.), Trackless Step, +1D6 extra skirmish damage (2D6 total, Swift Hunter again), +1 Favored Enemy (Swift hunter again). You also get a feat that you can invest however you want - i would suggest Iron Will, your Willsave is pretty low for now.
At this point, you fulfill all criteria for the Order of the Bow Initiate prestige class. You can now add that or more levels in scout as you wish. I would suggest 2 levels in OotB, then you can fire while in melee without trouble.


Note that your Ranger and Fighter level must not divert by more than 1 level, else you take an XP penalty! You can take one extra Fighter level for another bonus talent. If you want to go to Figher level four for Weapon Specialization, you also need a third level of Ranger - perhaps worth it for another free feat (Endurance).
More ranger levels are not worth it - your spellcasting and animal companion will never be that usefull (they are not for a full ranger, much less for a multiclass one), you do not get any class features that you do not get with Scout levels (except a better combat style and fast tracking, both available as feats) and you loose skillpoints. You get slighly higher HP, but that's not worth it. You just loose to many Scout class features which are much more usefull.

Here are some proposals for the levels 10, 15 and 20:
Scout 5/Ootb 2/Ranger 2/Fighter 1/////Scout 3/Ootb 3/Ranger 2/Fighter 2////Scout 3/OotB 4/Ranger 2/Fighter 1
Scout 7/Ootb 5/Ranger 2/Fighter 1////Scout 3/OotB 5/Ranger 3/Fighter 4
Scout 12/Ootb 5/Ranger 2/Fighter 1////Scout 5/OotB 10/Ranger 3/Fighter 4////Scout 8/OotB 5/Ranger 3/Fighter 4
The first line focusses on straight Scout Progression, the second on maximum bow damage at longer range (60 ft.) and the third is a mix.

Either way, i strongly urge you to go four Scout, since the class is generally much more usefull than Ranger (tough the two stack well) - mostly because Rangers suck.
I already made a Level 1 Scout, you can use that as a template. Starting out as one gives you access to better damage at first level and more skillpoints - and you need to buy a good composite longbow later on anyway, so you can save money on your first level and then spend it when you learn to use it.
If you want pets, you can still do that via the handle animal skill - good enough for mounts at any rate. And you are less restricted than with your animal companion as well!

Edit:
Oh, and Dark Hellion: As soon as i get Wildshape (level , you can ride on me! In Dire Hawk form (medium size, could even fit into dungeons) - but you buy the saddle!

On animal companions you can buy certain animals after the dessert leg, though unless you're going for a docile noncombat animal I would suggest having an appropriate handle animal check. If you're feeling really risky you can try to capture one along the way.

You need Handle Animal anyway, you merely get a +4 bonus on your Animal Companion.
I do not actually need it beyond level eight for my AC, since my AC will then have an intelligence of 7 - smart enough to not require (or even qualify for) Handle Animal. Of course, i will still invest it - it is a generally useful skill after all.

If Hawkings invests into Handle Animal, (which is on his Ranger and Fighter class list), he can still handle animals quite well - they do not automatically scale with level and he does not get a +4 bonus, but that's not that bad.

And the rules specifically state that you need to buy or otherwise acquire your AC - i want an Dire Eagle later on (i like eagles, hawks etc.), which costs 2.500 (egg) or 4.000 gp (young one) plus training. Hence, i have to save money.

Another quick DM question. How are you handling alignment? PHB/DMG style or the expanded style present in things like the BoED and BoVD? I don't want to get stuck being a goody-toe-shoes rebel without a cause like the PHB seems to think CG should work.

Dark Hellion wrote:Another quick DM question. How are you handling alignment? PHB/DMG style or the expanded style present in things like the BoED and BoVD? I don't want to get stuck being a goody-toe-shoes rebel without a cause like the PHB seems to think CG should work.

I never even ask players to fill in that box. Instead of good and evil I prefer aligned with ideals versus not and I'll let players actions speak to how others see them.

Chaotic good is basically the choice the means everyone ignores alignment anyway.

How long is the trip supposed to be on the first leg of the journey? If your not having us keep track of food this question is less important.
How do you feel about Flaws and Traits?
Here is my character so far, he's done out side changes that may occur because of those two questions http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.p ... tid=207081

Well, i can create water as a 0-level spell, so at least that is not going to be much of a problem.

Oh, and it looks like we have a meatshield after all - lot's of HP and a very good AC on that Binder.

The dessert leg is going to be close to 400 miles long. So expect it to take at least 10 days with combat and such, maybe closer to two weeks if your horses are encumbered. So things like salt and feed for your animals should be considered.

Oh, and Hawkings:
If you really want an Animal Companion, spend one Feat on Wild Cohort. You could take it instead of Iron Will, which is not that crucially important for you.
It scales with your Character level -3 (which makes it actually better than a Ranger AC), get's better as you level up (just like AC) and is nearly as good as an ACb (generally, the boni are one smaller).
You do not get the "handle as free action", but you can still let it attack one enemy or use it as a mount. That's about the only serious difference to ACs - and remember, it is ONE feat away and BETTER than Ranger ACs even tough it seems weaker at first glance (since Ranger ACs scale very badly).


I would ask Norade first - that feat is pretty strong. But i think it suits the character you have in mind.

The dessert leg is going to be close to 400 miles long. So expect it to take at least 10 days with combat and such, maybe closer to two weeks if your horses are encumbered. So things like salt and feed for your animals should be considered.

Will there be additional money for food etc.? Without it, the trip will be really hazardous.

Water is not that much of a problem, i can provide 24 liters day. Perhaps not enough (the group alone would require about five liters per player - less for our Kobold). The horses will require another water source - can we get Camels?
I can also locate water, but only with a range of about two kilometers.

If we are going to travel in a waste, i would recommend a Desert Outfit with Ironthorn Extract (give +1 AC, heat protection level 1) or a Heatsuit with the same (depends on the Desert). We should mostly travel at night, so long-duration light sources are required. Also, buy Parasols! Else, we can only travel 4-6 hours a day, depending on the desert.
And no heavy armor for anyone unless you KNOW that we are going to fight soon (or if it's night), else you will be grilled cheese.

Stark, you should play. We could use a 10th to even things out. Besides every game needs a bitter cynic who hates everything in it. xD

Lance, I don't know very much about Binders. Is that Full Plate given top you as part of a binding? If not how did you afford it.

As for Flaws, I really don't like them. People never take a real flaw. It's always something that never effects them.

Serafina, that feat is fine by me. I don't generally consider animal companions to break the game.

Feed for mounts isn't too costly, it should only cost a single gold coin for 20 days worth of feed, it's hauling 200lb. of feed per mount that is an issue. As for mounts, you may have whatever you deem fit, but if you want to trade it later for say a horse expect to be bartering.

The climate will be comparable to the Western Sahara in April so lows of 16oC (61oF) and highs of around 23oC (71 oF) so I don't think heat isn't the biggest issue, it's more sand and a lack of water that will be problems. Of course feel free to correct me on that if I'm wrong.

That's positively balmy and mild! Of course, the sand gives us another option for carrying stuff: dragging it on the ground with sleds. We can carry a ton of stuff this way.

One thing I can see is having both a wild cohort and an animal companion. Say, one the war dog and one a horse as a mount. Either way, those come later so I'm not going to worry about it now. I was thinking of doing mostly ranger up to character level 10 or so, with a level or two of druid (more create water). I'm OK with having a comparatively underpowered character; I really just want to keep it simple for this first game. With that being said, I'm sure I'm going to want to explore advancement concepts as the game progresses, so I'll definitely keep all this stuff in mind for reference later.

Norade: when did you plan on starting the game?

I'm hoping to have the first post up on the 21st.

I'm also wondering how people would feel about using an off-site die roller so you can roll your own dice and link me to the page that has your roll stored?

Oh, then we don't have to worry about heat. Scratch nearly everything i said.
Instead, get filter masks (only 1 gp). If someone has spare money, he should get a drill (5gp) to, well, drill for water.
Desert Outfits are still a good idea, tough not really necessary and can be worn over normal clothes/armor to keep the sand away.
If the area is dryer than the Western Sahara (in other words, comparable to the central Sahara) we have to look out for our water - each will require about 10 gallons of water per day! That is a weight of about 40 kilogram (or 80 pounds) per day - so we will have to travel at a medium load if we want to ensure that the mounts carry enough water.
If we want to stretch it, we can carry water for four days without risking the health of our horses.

If we can get some Donkeys, we can greatly improve the situation. They only need about 5 gallons of water per day and can carry as much as a horse. A donkey costs about 8 GP.
A donkey can carry up to 230 pounds as a light load (to compensate for it's lower speed).
It needs 40 pounds of water per day, a horse 80 pounds. Hence, a donkey can carry enough for himself and a horse for two days (if we stretch it a little).

If we add one donkey for each of us, we need to carry (40+80)=120 pounds of water per traveler. The horses can carry about 200 pounds, the donkeys can carry 230 pounds. That gives us 430 pounds of water, which is enough for
If we reduce the water consumption by 10%, we can go for four days while everyone maintains a speed of 30 feet or three miles per day (normal travel speed, normal terrain).
We can probably afford to stretch that to 7 or 8 days if we have to, but the horses will need a good rest after that (about two-three days).

In other words: If we can acquire donkeys for the dire parts of the desert, we should be able to make it.

Hawkwings wrote:That's positively balmy and mild! Of course, the sand gives us another option for carrying stuff: dragging it on the ground with sleds. We can carry a ton of stuff this way.

One thing I can see is having both a wild cohort and an animal companion. Say, one the war dog and one a horse as a mount. Either way, those come later so I'm not going to worry about it now. I was thinking of doing mostly ranger up to character level 10 or so, with a level or two of druid (more create water). I'm OK with having a comparatively underpowered character; I really just want to keep it simple for this first game. With that being said, I'm sure I'm going to want to explore advancement concepts as the game progresses, so I'll definitely keep all this stuff in mind for reference later.

Norade: when did you plan on starting the game?

Unless you start as a druid, we don't need it for water creation, since it scales with level.

And ranger is really not that good of a class. Most of your class abilities simply do not scale well - your spells are not that good, your AC is too weak to be a good fighter.
If you go for Scout instead, you can gain Favored enemy (take one level in ranger and one feat and it scales with your Scout+Ranger level) and you can gain a better Companion using Wild Cohort - better a strong one than two weak ones.
You also do not need a horse as an AC unless you are a dedicated mounted combat type.

Scout is every bit as flexible as Ranger (and arguable more) - you gain Extra Damage against everything but Constructs and Undead for both ranged and melee attacks. You can gain an Animal Companion. You can gain Favored Enemies.
The only thing you do not get are spells, but they are not THAT good anyway.

If you want to keep it simple at the beginning, simply be a Scout of the first four levels or so.

Serafina wrote:Oh, then we don't have to worry about heat. Scratch nearly everything i said.
Instead, get filter masks (only 1 gp). If someone has spare money, he should get a drill (5gp) to, well, drill for water.
Desert Outfits are still a good idea, tough not really necessary and can be worn over normal clothes/armor to keep the sand away.
If the area is dryer than the Western Sahara (in other words, comparable to the central Sahara) we have to look out for our water - each will require about 10 gallons of water per day! That is a weight of about 40 kilogram (or 80 pounds) per day - so we will have to travel at a medium load if we want to ensure that the mounts carry enough water.
If we want to stretch it, we can carry water for four days without risking the health of our horses.

If we can get some Donkeys, we can greatly improve the situation. They only need about 5 gallons of water per day and can carry as much as a horse. A donkey costs about 8 GP.
A donkey can carry up to 230 pounds as a light load (to compensate for it's lower speed).
It needs 40 pounds of water per day, a horse 80 pounds. Hence, a donkey can carry enough for himself and a horse for two days (if we stretch it a little).

If we add one donkey for each of us, we need to carry (40+80)=120 pounds of water per traveler. The horses can carry about 200 pounds, the donkeys can carry 230 pounds. That gives us 430 pounds of water, which is enough for
If we reduce the water consumption by 10%, we can go for four days while everyone maintains a speed of 30 feet or three miles per day (normal travel speed, normal terrain).
We can probably afford to stretch that to 7 or 8 days if we have to, but the horses will need a good rest after that (about two-three days).

In other words: If we can acquire donkeys for the dire parts of the desert, we should be able to make it.

Donkey's can only carry 50lbs, Mules carry 230 as a light load. Yes a Mule is a stronger mount than a Horse, but we would be best off buying a cart and using a mules 3,000lbs drag potential to carry a plenty of water.

Mules are an adventurers best friend, they'll even follow you into the dungeon.

Good point about carts, i will do a new calculation then.

If we buy a Mule and a Sledge or Cart, the Donkey can transport 3.000 pounds of water.
If we add one such Mule to a party with four horses (one of us can take the Sledge/Cart), we need (80x4)+40+(5x10)=410 pounds of water each day (Horse+Mule+us).
The cart alone can carry enough water for seven days, the horses can each carry water for half a day. In total, that gives us an endurance of nine days.
If we add a second cart, that goes up to 15 days.
If the horses are dropped down to a light load, that gets down to 12 days.

My suggestion is that i exchange my Light Horse (75 gp) for two carts and mules (23 gp each) and basic desert equipment for everyone (about 25 gp). That puts us on a relatively safe side as far as water goes, as long as we can protect the carts from attackers.

Norade, is the terrain better suited for sledges (sand) or carts (everything else)? Both cost the same, but we should know.