ST vs. DS1

[Slartibartfast]

Besides, they did not fire together. Luke only had two torps, and fired them much later than the lead X wing.

Luke is the lead X-wing!

Sorry, I meant the guy in the lead who said "Negative, it did not go in".

Ergo, the X-wings were not slaved together.

No but all of the ships were using the leader's targeting computer. "I've got a lock, Getting a signal." Now weather the leader's trigger fire the missiles or the individual pilots had to pull thier own triggers is not said.

Sorry, who said "I've got a lock, Getting a signal."?

Anyway, if they all fire using the same lock and the first one misses, regardless of whether they fire at the same time or not, they are ALL GOING TO MISS.

BTW, Slartibartfast, a torp did explode near the hole. It did not block it, or Luke would have been in sooo much trouble!

Yes I remember that. The other guy said "it only hit the surface" or something like it, but I'm not sure he meant the surface of the exhaust, or the surface of the trench/Death Star (he might have missed completely).

Anyway it probably exploded a few meters away, not right on the edge of the exhaust.

[Darth Yoshi]

I think the torp missed and skipped off the floor of the trench to hit the wall. I'm not sure about that, though.

[Isolder74]

I think the torp missed and skipped off the floor of the trench to hit the wall. I'm not sure about that, though.

It Hit just short of the port. When it shows Luke's Torpedoes go in there is a black scorch mark just short of the hole.

[Kuja]

It Hit just short of the port. When it shows Luke's Torpedoes go in there is a black scorch mark just short of the hole.

Dialogue backs this up:

"Negative, negative. It didn't go in. It just impacted on the surface.

[Slartibartfast]

It Hit just short of the port. When it shows Luke's Torpedoes go in there is a black scorch mark just short of the hole.

Dialogue backs this up:

"Negative, negative. It didn't go in. It just impacted on the surface.

Actually that's the line of dialogue we're trying to clear up, whether it was the surface very very close to the hole, the surface of the trench, the surface of the Death Star, etc.

[Kuja]

It Hit just short of the port. When it shows Luke's Torpedoes go in there is a black scorch mark just short of the hole.

Dialogue backs this up:

"Negative, negative. It didn't go in. It just impacted on the surface.

Actually that's the line of dialogue we're trying to clear up, whether it was the surface very very close to the hole, the surface of the trench, the surface of the Death Star, etc.

Simple logic should tell you: Red Leader was trying to make the same shot Luke made.

Notice that just after he fired, and yells "It's away!" there are sparks coming from in front of and below the X-wing. This, along with the dialogue, plus the fact that there are scorch marks to the upper left of the port when we see Luke's torps go in, all imply the Red Leader's torps failed to negotiate the turn that Luke's torps made, and impacted on the surface of the DS.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Looks like due to jamming they tried to make the turn too soon.

[Wrath]

i'm curious as to why the torps would need to preform that turn , its pritty much accepted that fed torps can not make such a harsh turn, and I think its pritty much accepted that any head on charge launching at the port couldn't work due to the surface fire.

but if I was incharge of the fed forces, with the plans on the death star, i'd set my attack plan to follow a trench run, have the ships pull up just before reaching the target and launch a rear facing torp at the target.

I don't know if this idea has been put forward before but flame away if it has.

[Typhonis 1]

I havent seen a reward firing torp or micro torp luncher on there shuttles ,runabouts ,or tac fighters.

[Wrath]

I havent seen a reward firing torp or micro torp luncher on there shuttles ,runabouts ,or tac fighters.

what about the delta flyer? are any of its photonic missile tubes rear facing?.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Except they'd all be killed by TL fire and 10 000 ties

[Slartibartfast]

Dialogue backs this up:

"Negative, negative. It didn't go in. It just impacted on the surface.

Actually that's the line of dialogue we're trying to clear up, whether it was the surface very very close to the hole, the surface of the trench, the surface of the Death Star, etc.

Simple logic should tell you: Red Leader was trying to make the same shot Luke made.

Notice that just after he fired, and yells "It's away!" there are sparks coming from in front of and below the X-wing. This, along with the dialogue, plus the fact that there are scorch marks to the upper left of the port when we see Luke's torps go in, all imply the Red Leader's torps failed to negotiate the turn that Luke's torps made, and impacted on the surface of the DS.

Yes, that's right, but that's also why I'm clearing up that bringing up the quote *again* doesn't say which surface it's impacting, so we're resorting to other evidence, like the scorch mark and such, to find out.

[Sagitarrian]

I have a question about the Photorps not being able to make the turns:

Has anyone done the math (if it can be done) on the turns taken by the plasma/gas-seeking photorp launched by the Enterprise-A in ST6?

If I remember right, it was making several turns, some seemed rather tight.

It has been a while since I saw that one, but that gives some (emphasis on SOME) credibility to the idea you can have a photorp maneuver and use a preprogrammed attack run, and not just fire in a straight line and hope it hits.

Just two cents from another lurker.

-Sagitarrian

[Darth Wong]

The rest of the shaft is merely two meters wide. You can have a ten meter wide "funnel" at the top, but in the end, you still need to arrange things so it goes right down the two meter "chute," or it'll explode on the side harmlessly.

I meant so it didn't have to do that initial turn.

The designers appeared to realize that this was a weakness and belatedly "solved" it by ray-shielding the shaft, so that whole area was probably fortified/shielded using higher-grade armour, etc. Most likely they would just waste their torpedoes uselessly if they pound the surface in that vicinity. They needed to have one go cleanly through the hole.

Worse yet, even if that's not the case, they run a good chance of simply collapsing the whole area, thus making it MORE difficult for the next torp to get through unscathed, not less.

[JodoForce]

The photorp in ST6 just made one turn after launch, towards the cloaked bird of prey, which wasn't manoeuvring . The turning radius was huge.

Nobody is saying that photon torpedoes can't change directions and home in on targets, the question is can it make a 90 degree turn in a tight enough radius for a torpedo launched in the trench to turn into the shaft of the exhaust port.

Wrath's idea sounds the most promising so far. If you fall back on the position that none of the Fed fighters are going to reach the trench, navigate the trench, etc. that means he has got around the problem of the 90 degree turn at least. They wouldn't be any more likely to be shot to pieces in the pull up manoeuvre than they were going in, esp. as the Imps wouldn't be expecting such a manoeuvre. (well, not the first time anyway)

[devil's advocate mode on]
Also I find the idea that you can't manoeuvre while lining up a shot from above a bit rich. The first time I came across the idea (flying a bomber in Wing Commander 2) I found it thoroughly ridiculous. You can jink all you want, as long as my position and aspect satisfies the firing condition for just one split second you can loose your dumb fire missle. Probably a bit too much for the touchpad-pilots in ST though.

But the other thing is I just don't see any kind of jamming covering over the emissions from a friggin exhaust port--emissions guidance or, failing that, a visually guided system should work well enough for an unaligned top-down shot to work.

Based on the above two points, I think the trench run thing in ANH was done for dramatic effect only
[/runs away, flameproof suit smouldering]

[JodoForce]

Here's another proposal:

The fighter launches the photorp from its aft launcher near the shaft. The photorp fires its engines to cancel its forward motion just as it reaches the shaft. Then it turns down and fires its engines to go down the shaft. No high-G turn necessary, and the fighter doesn't have to turn up to expose itself to fire either.

[SirNitram]

Here's another proposal:

The fighter launches the photorp from its aft launcher near the shaft. The photorp fires its engines to cancel its forward motion just as it reaches the shaft. Then it turns down and fires its engines to go down the shaft. No high-G turn necessary, and the fighter doesn't have to turn up to expose itself to fire either.

Magic physic's defying missiles... whee

[Kuja]

Yes, that's right, but that's also why I'm clearing up that bringing up the quote *again* doesn't say which surface it's impacting, so we're resorting to other evidence, like the scorch mark and such, to find out.

I'm telling you: simple logic should anwser this. Red Leader is firing the same missile type as Luke, from the same fighter, from the same approach vector. Red Leader simply failed to hit the button at the right moment, and the torps failed to make the turn into the shaft and slammed into the surface outside the opening.

[Darth Yoshi]

Here's another proposal:

The fighter launches the photorp from its aft launcher near the shaft. The photorp fires its engines to cancel its forward motion just as it reaches the shaft. Then it turns down and fires its engines to go down the shaft. No high-G turn necessary, and the fighter doesn't have to turn up to expose itself to fire either.

I've never seen torps pull off anything resembling that.

[Slartibartfast]

Yes, that's right, but that's also why I'm clearing up that bringing up the quote *again* doesn't say which surface it's impacting, so we're resorting to other evidence, like the scorch mark and such, to find out.

I'm telling you: simple logic should anwser this. Red Leader is firing the same missile type as Luke, from the same fighter, from the same approach vector. Red Leader simply failed to hit the button at the right moment, and the torps failed to make the turn into the shaft and slammed into the surface outside the opening.

You're kinda missing the point here.

[JodoForce]

you're missing the point here

Well I suppose that *would* mean the protorp would impact the surface near the shaft at a 90 degree angle and would explode right there instead of bouncing anywhere, so that would answer your question wouldn't it?

---
No we haven't ever seen photorps do anything like that before but I don't see such a manoeuvre taxing the capabilities of any space missile capable of taking even low-G turns. Unless the photorp must be launched at high speed and can't become stationary (like a photon??) the missile can simply come to a dead stop and then take all the time it wants to turn down into the shaft, without pulling any Gs at all. (within reason of course; it can still be shot down by TIEs) Heck, if they can't modify a photorp to do this they can take 20th century technology and make a missile that can fulfill these requirements. Or is this not allowed in SW vs ST? ST techheads not allowed to smarten up and use old-fashioned stuff that *works*? Enlighten me here

[JodoForce]

And to clarify, the fighter launches the torp from an aft launcher, by 'cancel its forward motion' I mean it would it would start off flying in the same direction as the fighter but with its nose pointed the other way, so it fires its engine to cancel this motion. The rest is straightforward.

[Darth Yoshi]

But that'd still require the Feds to line up the shot, and it'd probably be even more difficult, since the target and where you're going are in two different directions.

[JodoForce]

Not necessarily, the optimal position to launch the photorp in this case would be just before you reach the exhaust port, practically right on top of it, so that after a short distance travelled while the photorp is decelerating, it is right on top of the hole when it becomes stationary and turns down. The distance of the launch point being so short and the point being before the fighter goes over the port, I imagine the shot will be at least as easy as the shot Luke made.

[Darth Yoshi]

But "will we be able to pull out in time?" If you're on top of the exhaust port, then you've already reached the wall, and the acceleration of Fed ships isn't good enough to stop it in time.