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Thanas wrote:

thejester wrote:I think it's hilarious that nerds spend so much time making those complaints. Do you think the developers give a shit? They wanted an excuse to use suburban America and Washington as a backdrop. Normally I'm not really sympathetic to 'it's like Michael Bay!' but I found playing in that environment with all the detritus of normal life pretty cool. Was it realistic? Fuck no but it was a change from 'generic awesome soldier fights in jungle/WW2/desert'. Comparing it to the original COD is pretty funny - the same COD where you blew up dams in the middle of Germany and then smuggled yourself onboard the Tirpitz to put her out of action too.

It would be far more realistic to have the US split into several factions due to [insert reason here] than have "damn dirty foreigners" come invade them every time. It is also deeply hilarious how there needs to be a foreign bogeyman in every game. What is wrong with a good old-fashioned civil war?

Every time? You're making it sound like the 'US suddenly invaded' is a massive, constant game setting on par with Stalingrad or D-Day. I can think of HAWX and....?

And even then, a 'civil war' scenario clearly wouldn't evoke the feeling in MW2 as you battle through suburbia - society suddenly, totally under siege.

They could just use a different setup for the same effect, if you want to set your corridor strolling in a suburb.

And since SOCIETY UNDER SIEGE SO MOVING is in vogue right now, it's a double-laugh since none of them sell it at all. Homefront? Lol!

I think that peeps are also avoiding the obvious answer for most of these questions.

AMERICA FUCK YEAH

You can't have an American civil war scenario, because AMERICA FUCK YEAH.

America gets invaded by commies and there's resistance because AMERICA FUCK YEAH.

Developers, publishers and consumers are mostly American do pandering to a flimsy nationalist ego for big sales numbers is the answer.

If by obvious you mean intellectually lazy, sure. The America, Fuck Yeah moment is...standing on top of a ruined White House waving a green flare?

thejester wrote:If by obvious you mean intellectually lazy, sure. The America, Fuck Yeah moment is...standing on top of a ruined White House waving a green flare?

No, that's a stolen from Bay/Bruckheimer thing, just like the shower room.

thejester wrote:You're making it sound like the 'US suddenly invaded' is a massive, constant game setting on par with Stalingrad or D-Day. I can think of HAWX and....?

Homefront
World in Conflict
Rainbow Six: Las Vegas
MW 2

- yeah, maybe not that common but it is becoming more and more common nowadays.

And even then, a 'civil war' scenario clearly wouldn't evoke the feeling in MW2 as you battle through suburbia - society suddenly, totally under siege.

Why not?

Civil War II could be extremely dramatic. Think about the perspective of a soldier in such a war, forced to fight his/her own people. Double points if you make the sides ambiguous and gray instead of good/evil.

Has anyone read the DMZ comic? That's about a second civil war, and is kind of awesome.

Do the Rainbow Six: Vegas games count as Invasion USA stories? They always seemed to me to be "absurdly large and well equipped (that's what she said) terrorist/criminal group shows up out of nowhere" which, to be fair, is fairly common in 'brainless action' type plots.

Stark wrote:They could just use a different setup for the same effect, if you want to set your corridor strolling in a suburb.

And since SOCIETY UNDER SIEGE SO MOVING is in vogue right now, it's a double-laugh since none of them sell it at all. Homefront? Lol!

Oh oh how about,

TURNING POINT. That game that did so bad everyone forgot about it. You should listen to the developer interviews. The guys who made the game literally had no idea how to design a good title. They basically admit right in the interview they were banking on the game's subject matter to make sales.

Oh, wow. I just read the plot of Turning point. That is really fucking stupid...

Thanas wrote:

thejester wrote:You're making it sound like the 'US suddenly invaded' is a massive, constant game setting on par with Stalingrad or D-Day. I can think of HAWX and....?

Homefront
World in Conflict
Rainbow Six: Las Vegas
MW 2

- yeah, maybe not that common but it is becoming more and more common nowadays.

Nowadays? That's five titles in five years.

And even then, a 'civil war' scenario clearly wouldn't evoke the feeling in MW2 as you battle through suburbia - society suddenly, totally under siege.

Why not?

I suppose it technically could but presumably a civil war wouldn't just happen, Texan paratroopers aren't going to suddenly descend from the sky into NYC. Invasion from a foreign force - no matter the absurdity of Russia airlifting onto the east coast - creates a better atmosphere.

I suppose it technically could but presumably a civil war wouldn't just happen, Texan paratroopers aren't going to suddenly descend from the sky into NYC. Invasion from a foreign force - no matter the absurdity of Russia airlifting onto the east coast - creates a better atmosphere.

Why are the texan paratroops any more difficult to set up than russian revolutionaries with a super-navy?

thejester wrote:-Nowadays? That's five titles in five years.

And how many WWII shooters came out?

I suppose it technically could but presumably a civil war wouldn't just happen, Texan paratroopers aren't going to suddenly descend from the sky into NYC. Invasion from a foreign force - no matter the absurdity of Russia airlifting onto the east coast - creates a better atmosphere.

The same rationale could be applied to any foreign invasion, as it wouldn't just happen as well. Stark is right IMO - USA gamers feel much more comfortable gunning down foreigners.

Socially, it would be sudden though, whereas with a civil war scenario society would be slowly militarizing before it happens. In RED DAWN or HOMEFRONT or MW2 or whatever, the audience (suburban civilians) are treated to the same sudden change as those suburban people whom would be living in those occupied, wartorn places. A civil war on the other hand, sees a far more confused creation of loyalties, rivalries and new ties. If you are trading on the shock value of civilian life destroyed, it is easier (and in the american case, in keeping with their peculiar paranoia) to depict a sudden foreign military on home soil.

As for americans feeling more comfortable shooting foreigners thanas, i think you're wrong, as HOMEFRONT and MW2 saw the player killing americans, as with Rainbow Six: Vegas 1&2, and many other games. Every time you shoot foreigners, you have as many games (if not more) where you kill americans.

Thanas wrote:

thejester wrote:-Nowadays? That's five titles in five years.

And how many WWII shooters came out?

I suppose it technically could but presumably a civil war wouldn't just happen, Texan paratroopers aren't going to suddenly descend from the sky into NYC. Invasion from a foreign force - no matter the absurdity of Russia airlifting onto the east coast - creates a better atmosphere.

The same rationale could be applied to any foreign invasion, as it wouldn't just happen as well. Stark is right IMO - USA gamers feel much more comfortable gunning down foreigners.

Rainbow Six Vegas didn't feature an invasion, it featured an unusally large and well equiped terrorist attack, homegrown terrorists, at that, the terrorist leader was a rogue rainbow agent.

World War II shooters? Ten that I can think of, four in the Call of Duty serries, four (at least) in the Medal of Honor serries, and at least two in the Battlefield serries. There's probably more, but I can't think of them, I'd look it up but I have to head in to work.

Thanas wrote:

thejester wrote:-Nowadays? That's five titles in five years.

And how many WWII shooters came out?

I've got no idea - but 2 COD and 3 MOH titles have come out since 2006 as well as a Battlefield title, Brothers in Arms title(s?), Wolfenstein, the Red Orchestra franchise...and that's just FPS.

I suppose it technically could but presumably a civil war wouldn't just happen, Texan paratroopers aren't going to suddenly descend from the sky into NYC. Invasion from a foreign force - no matter the absurdity of Russia airlifting onto the east coast - creates a better atmosphere.

The same rationale could be applied to any foreign invasion, as it wouldn't just happen as well. Stark is right IMO - USA gamers feel much more comfortable gunning down foreigners.

As has already been pointed out in MW2 and Vegas rogue members of the US military were the ultimate villains and throughout both Vegas games the villains had American and Mexican accents, so not sure that stands up. On top of which given the enormous presence of the ACW in US thought I have a slightly hard time believing that game developers aren't going down this path because they fear the sensibilities of their audience.

thejester wrote:As has already been pointed out in MW2 and Vegas rogue members of the US military were the ultimate villains and throughout both Vegas games the villains had American and Mexican accents, so not sure that stands up. On top of which given the enormous presence of the ACW in US thought I have a slightly hard time believing that game developers aren't going down this path because they fear the sensibilities of their audience.

So why don't they? The "has a better feel" argument is so far nothing but an appeal to your own authority.

You know, I started replaying MW2 because of this thread, and the whole setup with the Russian invasion felt just wrong not just because hundreds of jets appearing out of nowhere is stupid, but how fast it happened.

The game is kind enough to track the time, and the invasion happens literally days after the airport attack. Days.

I couldn't find it shocking or moving because it felt...fake. Like there was a whole fleet of cloaked Russian aircraft carriers prowling just off shore ready to vomit their fighter wings on poor unsuspecting America.

Alternatively, Russia has 300 knot airfoil superships that can cross the atlantic in two days, and they were all loaded and ready to go when the airport was hit

Maybe they just put in a REALLY big FedEx order.

weemadando wrote:Maybe they just put in a REALLY big FedEx order.

Such thoughts appear in my head all the time in those CONUS missions, which makes it kinda hard to feel the dramatism. Frankly, MW1 has 2 totally beat when it comes to presentation: the scope of the story is smaller, so it doesn't suffer as much from technothriller conventions. It also sets up the general situation more effectively. We learn the gist of what's going on in a couple sentences at the start ; In MW2 you get shown a terrorist getting a statue, okay, so Russia has turned fascist or something...then suddenly it's a powerhouse and the world exploderizes into violence!

They should've set Russia up as a newly rebuilt powerful nation first, so that the player actually felt some fear at what might happen if they go to war with the US.

Then again, perhaps I am just lacking the necessary invasion paranoia, and had I been an American with siege mentality I would've been all shocked by seeing quiet suburbs on fire, whatever the leadup and reason.

CaptHawkeye wrote:Does anyone in CoD's fanbase really act like the games political/strategic background is realistic?

Yes. Just like there's quite a lot of people who think Homefront is plausible.

Trailer looks fun eitherway, looking forward to duking it out on the streets of London and Paris.

Thanas wrote:

thejester wrote:As has already been pointed out in MW2 and Vegas rogue members of the US military were the ultimate villains and throughout both Vegas games the villains had American and Mexican accents, so not sure that stands up. On top of which given the enormous presence of the ACW in US thought I have a slightly hard time believing that game developers aren't going down this path because they fear the sensibilities of their audience.

So why don't they? The "has a better feel" argument is so far nothing but an [/b]appeal to your own authority.[/b]

As opposed to the mountains of empirical evidence you've deployed so far?

The trope of IIACW is hardly new or unique, it's just as far as I'm aware it has yet to make the transition to FPS-land. Why? I have no idea, but I don't think the argument 'herp derp Americans are only comfortable with the BIG BAD FOREIGNER' is particulary convincing.

Not only one of the greatest political cartoons I've ever seen, but perfectly apt for the MW2 invasion scenario.