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According to the opening crawl in DS9 "Emissary":

On stardate 43997, Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the Federation starship Enterprise was kidnapped for six days by an invading force known as the Borg. Surgically altered, he was forced to lead an assault on Starfleet at Wolf 359.

This establishes a clear timeline. The time between the Cube kidnapping Picard and set a course for Earth to his was rescue somewhere between Wolf 359 and Earth was 6 days. Note that this is an opening crawl directly to the audience rather than a character's observation, and as such it should be treated as a higher level of canon than character dialogue.

The problem with your estimate is that according to Picard in FC the Federation comprised of 150 (presumably major) worlds spread across 8,000c. If we were to assume that Warp 9.9 was ~2,333c (7,000c / 3 years) and that the Borg Cube and the E-D were travelling at warp 9.9 for the entire duration, then over the course of 6 days they travelled a max distance of ~38.4c. Of course, they did not travel at warp 9.9 and they did not travel non-stop, so the distance would actually be shorter than this. Similarly, in FC the cube went from the Federation border directly to Earth in what appeared to be a matter of days. Just the distance between Earth and Wolf 359 alone is 7.8c. I find it highly unlikely that the capital of the Federation would be a mere 25-50c from the frontier.

Actually that's besides the point. Even if Data's exact distance was off, the main point was that it would take over 2 years for the E-D to reach the nearest star base. It shouldn't come as a shocker that a vessel many times larger and more technologically advanced than the E-D could make the same trip in less than half the time via standard warp. I suppose you're right in that it could have done it in a much shorter time via transwarp coil or conduit, but as they had nothing to fear they may have been acting rather leisurely in their approach.

This establishes a clear timeline. The time between the Cube kidnapping Picard and set a course for Earth to his was rescue somewhere between Wolf 359 and Earth was 6 days. Note that this is an opening crawl directly to the audience rather than a character's observation, and as such it should be treated as a higher level of canon than character dialogue.

The problem with your estimate is that according to Picard in FC the Federation comprised of 150 (presumably major) worlds spread across 8,000c. If we were to assume that Warp 9.9 was ~2,333c (7,000c / 3 years) and that the Borg Cube and the E-D were travelling at warp 9.9 for the entire duration, then over the course of 6 days they travelled a max distance of ~38.4c. Of course, they did not travel at warp 9.9 and they did not travel non-stop, so the distance would actually be shorter than this. Similarly, in FC the cube went from the Federation border directly to Earth in what appeared to be a matter of days. Just the distance between Earth and Wolf 359 alone is 7.8c. I find it highly unlikely that the capital of the Federation would be a mere 25-50c from the frontier.

Sorry, not sure what this is supposed to prove. The whole point of discussion between us was the availability of transwarp drive, and my stance is that just because we never see the Borg use it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist at that time. So based on those travel times we're looking at two possibilities:

1. The Borg DID employ transwarp at some point during their invasions of the Federation. We know that after Wolf 359 but before the final confrontation at Earth, a second Borg vessel with assimilated victims from Wolf 359 went back to the Delta Quadrant. That must have involved transwarp to get back in time for Voyager.

2. Chaulk it up to the fact that warp speed is inconsistent throughout the series (Klingon homeworld is in our Oort Cloud according to Star Trek : Enterprise).

Hard to say which one is more plausible. Could be both. If number 2 is correct, then while that may explain an inconsistency of a few days, it doesn't explain a few years of travel from J-25.

Actually that's besides the point. Even if Data's exact distance was off, the main point was that it would take over 2 years for the E-D to reach the nearest star base.

No that's exactly the point. It's not that Data's exact distance was off, it was WAY off. It's 2 years at maximum warp...6 - 7 under sustainable conditions.

It shouldn't come as a shocker that a vessel many times larger and more technologically advanced than the E-D could make the same trip in less than half the time via standard warp.

Right so if we're talking 2 or 3 years instead of 7, that's far more reasonable. But even a cube can't generate enough power to take a 7 year trip and squeeze it down to 1. Maximum warp for the E-D is 9.8. No ship ever seen can simply go double that.

I suppose you're right in that it could have done it in a much shorter time via transwarp coil or conduit, but as they had nothing to fear they may have been acting rather leisurely in their approach.

Well yeah I agree with you they were being leisurely however you look at it. I personally think it's impossible for a cube to use standard warp to get from J-25 to Earth in only a year, but had they wanted to, they could have taken a transwarp conduit very close to Federation space and been there maybe in weeks. Remember that the Borg already were in the AQ...they had attacked several Federation and Romulan colonies along the Neutral Zone. They could have just turned that ship around and been there in months or sent several cubes instead of just one.

Perhaps we're misunderstanding each other. I concede that transwarp was available, but there is no evidence to suggest the Borg cubes in BOBW or FC used it. You could argue that the Cube in BOBW had the excuse to drop to warp when it reached the edge of Federation space because they decided to assimilate some colonies and transports. They seem to have been traveling rather aimlessly until they stumbled upon the E-D. Only after they kidnapped Picard did the assimilation of Earth become a priority. The cube in FC has no excuse though - it was making a bee-line to Earth from the start. You would think that if they were already using transwarp to get to Federation space, they would have no reason to come out of it prior to reaching Earth. What, was the fuel gauge running on empty or something? Did they spring a leak in their tire?

Actually that's besides the point. Even if Data's exact distance was off, the main point was that it would take over 2 years for the E-D to reach the nearest star base.

No that's exactly the point. It's not that Data's exact distance was off, it was WAY off. It's 2 years at maximum warp...6 - 7 under sustainable conditions.

It's just as likely that Data was correct about the number of years it would take, but was way off for the actual distance. J-25 could have been much closer than he stated. Or he could have been completely wrong on both counts, and the "miracle" journey of the Cube from J-25 to Federation space really wasn't all that special.

Well yeah I agree with you they were being leisurely however you look at it. I personally think it's impossible for a cube to use standard warp to get from J-25 to Earth in only a year, but had they wanted to, they could have taken a transwarp conduit very close to Federation space and been there maybe in weeks. Remember that the Borg already were in the AQ...they had attacked several Federation and Romulan colonies along the Neutral Zone. They could have just turned that ship around and been there in months or sent several cubes instead of just one.

That's what my discussion on the "Neutral Zone" is about, as I'm trying to figure out what the Borg were doing by attacking the Neutral Zone then leaving for some unexplained reason. If they were already in Federation space and assimilated the outposts, you would think they would just carry on going. Perhaps that cube was the mysterious 2nd ship later seen in Voyager, or vice-versa.

Perhaps we're misunderstanding each other. I concede that transwarp was available, but there is no evidence to suggest the Borg cubes in BOBW or FC used it. You could argue that the Cube in BOBW had the excuse to drop to warp when it reached the edge of Federation space because they decided to assimilate some colonies and transports. They seem to have been traveling rather aimlessly until they stumbled upon the E-D. Only after they kidnapped Picard did the assimilation of Earth become a priority. The cube in FC has no excuse though - it was making a bee-line to Earth from the start. You would think that if they were already using transwarp to get to Federation space, they would have no reason to come out of it prior to reaching Earth. What, was the fuel gauge running on empty or something? Did they spring a leak in their tire?

I'm arguing that they could very well have used transwarp. They're arguing that they probably didn't. I think either way there's a lack of evidence. You're certainly not wrong, I just don't see any reason why they would deliberately not use transwarp at least to get close to Federation space.

Or he could have been completely wrong on both counts

Wouldn't be the first time. Only thing I'd ever trust Data for is putting together a jigsaw puzzle or entering computer code really fast.

That's what my discussion on the "Neutral Zone" is about, as I'm trying to figure out what the Borg were doing by attacking the Neutral Zone then leaving for some unexplained reason. If they were already in Federation space and assimilated the outposts, you would think they would just carry on going. Perhaps that cube was the mysterious 2nd ship later seen in Voyager, or vice-versa.

Yeah the Borg never really act logically. I mean it MAKES SENSE that they'd assimilate the outposts and then carry on into Romulan or Federation space. But obviously they didn't. Why? It's never explained. The second ship in BoTW could be that mystery ship but then what was it doing hanging in the area for a year or two...just waiting? I think we clearly need more info on what happened during that time period, because we know next to nothing aside from a few scattered pieces of dialogue in Voyager.

Hmmm. How long was the time between "the Neutral Zone" and "Q-Who"? If it was more than a few months the Cube from the "Neutral Zone" could have been the one seen in BOBW. They originally attacked the outposts, decided there was nothing worthy of their attention and moved on. But after the events of "Q-Who" they decided that the Federation was worthy of a second look. This would explain Guinan's statement that Q had changed things; originally the cube would have just carried on and the Federation would not have had official contact for some time yet, but in this timeline the cube turned around and headed back to Fed Space. Because it was now several months/a year out, it didn't reach Fed space again until BOBW. It would also explain why the BOBW cube didn't immediately head for Earth: they returned out of curiosity, and were taking their time to analyse the situation. It was only after the E-D stumbled upon them did they realise the opportunity they had with Picard.

As for the 2nd mystery ship, I just remembered Chuck's idea his "Unity Saga," where he hypothesised that the Borg Cube had a sphere in it. Shortly after Wolf 359 the sphere detached from the Cube and took out the small fleet of Klingon ships which was mentioned in the dialogue but never seen. After the main cube was destroyed the sphere returned to the DQ because it lacked the size and firepower to carry out the invasion on its own. It's conceivable that the sphere at some point could have docked with the Cube found in Voyager.

Hmmm. How long was the time between "the Neutral Zone" and "Q-Who"? If it was more than a few months the Cube from the "Neutral Zone" could have been the one seen in BOBW.

According to Memory Alpha, about 2 years. So if it was the same ship, it must have been hanging around for a long time.

It would also explain why the BOBW cube didn't immediately head for Earth: they returned out of curiosity, and were taking their time to analyse the situation. It was only after the E-D stumbled upon them did they realise what an opportunity they had with Picard.

That could very well be it.

After the main cube was destroyed the sphere returned to the DQ because it lacked the size and firepower to carry out the invasion on its own. It's conceivable that the sphere at some point could have docked with the Cube found in Voyager.

I think that's one of the prominent theories actually.

Hmmm. How long was the time between "the Neutral Zone" and "Q-Who"? If it was more than a few months the Cube from the "Neutral Zone" could have been the one seen in BOBW.

According to Memory Alpha, about 2 years. So if it was the same ship, it must have been hanging around for a long time.

That's kinda odd as I always assumed that each season roughly corresponded to one year. With the "Neutral Zone" being the last episode of season 1 and "Q-Who" being in the middle of season 2 you would think that less time would have passed. At any rate, even it was 2 years that still isn't much of a stretch if you think about it. The Cube could have taken a different path on the way back to Fed Space in order to study/assimilate any worlds it encountered along the way. Actually, its very likely that if it were the same cube that's exactly what happened, becuase it didn't appear out the Neutral Zone in BOBW. If the Borg's decision was just out of curiosity due to the Q-Who encounter and they didn't decide to actually assimilate Earth until they ran into Picard, it wouldn't surprise me that they took their time to check things out. After all that is likely why the Cube was in the Neutral Zone in the first place.

Borgholio wrote: Right so if we're talking 2 or 3 years instead of 7, that's far more reasonable. But even a cube can't generate enough power to take a 7 year trip and squeeze it down to 1. Maximum warp for the E-D is 9.8. No ship ever seen can simply go double that.

Um, Voyager can go at Warp 9.975...

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Borgholio wrote: Right so if we're talking 2 or 3 years instead of 7, that's far more reasonable. But even a cube can't generate enough power to take a 7 year trip and squeeze it down to 1. Maximum warp for the E-D is 9.8. No ship ever seen can simply go double that.

Um, Voyager can go at Warp 9.975...

True, but 9.975 is not double the speed of 9.8. Here is the Memory Alpha link on warp speed...which is horribly inconsistent.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Warp_factor

So while I'll be happy to admit that a Borg Cube might be able to sustain high warp speed that could get it from J-25 to the AQ in a couple years, I doubt it would be able to be the 1 year that the timeline implies.

Well, it would have been fine of Voyager hadn't screwed up all the continuity.

And speaking of which, this reminds me of my fanfic take on "Scorpion" that I dabbled in a while back. Hmmm, maybe I should dust that off and take a look lol.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Borgholio wrote: Right so if we're talking 2 or 3 years instead of 7, that's far more reasonable. But even a cube can't generate enough power to take a 7 year trip and squeeze it down to 1. Maximum warp for the E-D is 9.8. No ship ever seen can simply go double that.

Um, Voyager can go at Warp 9.975...

Yes but it cannot sustain that warp speed for prolonged periods.

How fast was Voyager travelling on average while at warp? It seemed pretty slow to me, as they frequently sent out shuttlecraft/probes for recon and away missions.

Godly gifts, transwarp and quantum drive trips being excluded of course.

Yes but it cannot sustain that warp speed for prolonged periods.

Actually it can. Intrepid class was designed to be one of the fastest ships ever. 9.975 can be sustained as long as they have fuel. Which leads into Tribble's question:

How fast was Voyager travelling on average while at warp? It seemed pretty slow to me, as they frequently sent out shuttlecraft/probes for recon and away missions.

They seemed to prefer to hang around warp 5 and 6. Just like cars, just because you can go pedal to the metal all day doesn't mean it's good for your fuel economy. The middle of the warp scale is far more efficient, and it was a recurring theme in several episodes regarding the search for more fuel.

But yeah you're right, they also did a bunch of non-critical research along the way which probably would have added years to their travel time.

Darth Nostril wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Borgholio wrote: Right so if we're talking 2 or 3 years instead of 7, that's far more reasonable. But even a cube can't generate enough power to take a 7 year trip and squeeze it down to 1. Maximum warp for the E-D is 9.8. No ship ever seen can simply go double that.

Um, Voyager can go at Warp 9.975...

Yes but it cannot sustain that warp speed for prolonged periods.

Lt Stadi (chief helmsman) Caretaker: That's our ship. Intrepid class. Sustainable cruise velocity warp 9.975

So yes it can.

VOYAGER probably can't, because it's not been to a Starbase in 7 years, but the Intrepid class is designed to do so.

Borgholio wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Borgholio wrote: Right so if we're talking 2 or 3 years instead of 7, that's far more reasonable. But even a cube can't generate enough power to take a 7 year trip and squeeze it down to 1. Maximum warp for the E-D is 9.8. No ship ever seen can simply go double that.

Um, Voyager can go at Warp 9.975...

True, but 9.975 is not double the speed of 9.8. Here is the Memory Alpha link on warp speed...which is horribly inconsistent.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Warp_factor

We don't know what 9.8 is. And throw consistency out of the window, it's meant to be a curved line. Warp 9.975 is not meant to be 0.075 "warps" faster than warp 9.9.

Darth Nostril wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Borgholio wrote: Right so if we're talking 2 or 3 years instead of 7, that's far more reasonable. But even a cube can't generate enough power to take a 7 year trip and squeeze it down to 1. Maximum warp for the E-D is 9.8. No ship ever seen can simply go double that.

Um, Voyager can go at Warp 9.975...

Yes but it cannot sustain that warp speed for prolonged periods.

well sustained warp factor for a Galaxy was 7 or 8 max (IIRC).

and even if we assume the chart in the tech manual is accurate the relationship between speed and warp factor is not linear

Borgholio wrote: But yeah you're right, they also did a bunch of non-critical research along the way which probably would have added years to their travel time.

Well they were already looking at a 7 decade trip home, and Starfleet are supposed to be explorers. Adding another year or three to that possibly didn't make much of a difference to them if it meant they could study some more patently idiotic fascinatingly unusual cosmic phenomena.

Batman wrote:

Borgholio wrote: But yeah you're right, they also did a bunch of non-critical research along the way which probably would have added years to their travel time.

Well they were already looking at a 7 decade trip home, and Starfleet are supposed to be explorers. Adding another year or three to that possibly didn't make much of a difference to them if it meant they could study some more patently idiotic fascinatingly unusual cosmic phenomena.

and then there's the fact that Voyager doesn't have the supplies needed for the 70 year trip so at least some of those side trip might have been to get fresh supplies.

Them needing to make pit stops was pretty much a given, and addressed in the series, but they did make a lot of detours that had nothing to do with reprovisioning but were all 'Yay! Anomaly! Let's go look!'
Which is perfectly acceptable. You're already looking at a 70 year plus trip. A delay of a week, or seven, or even 129 doesn't make much in the way of difference in the long run.
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Oh my Valen I'm defending VOY! Somebody shoot me!

There's nothing wrong at defending Voyager if you do it for a reason, most of the problems of VOY or ENT came from the fact that characters were so 1 dimensional that you couldn't "see" past the sets. When VOY or ENT did good episode you could suspend your disbelief and in your mind's eye "see" the whole Voyager or Enterprise and see the cast as not a group of actors doing an acting job but as Starfleet officers going about their daily lives.

I refuse to suspend my disbelief to the extent of accepting ENT. There's merely being a terrible show that happens to be parked in the Trek universe, and there's parking the capital of the Klingon empire in the Oort cloud.

Batman wrote:I refuse to suspend my disbelief to the extent of accepting ENT. There's merely being a terrible show that happens to be parked in the Trek universe, and there's parking the capital of the Klingon empire in the Oort cloud.

there's good stuff in ENT when they stopped raping the legacy of Trek and tried making good television instead, sure it's not excellent but it's decent to good.

So, if the speeds we are talking about are accurate, how much are the Feds, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians etc exaggerating their size? Because if Voyager was only capable of sustained warp travel of 1,000c, even though it was the most advanced exploration starship in the fleet at the time of its launch, there is no possible way that the Federation by itself spreads across 8,000c. It would take several years just to get from one side to another, let alone reach the capital worlds of the other Empires. Yet we frequently see starships travel that distance within a matter of days/weeks. It would make more sense that Federation space was a mere 500c-1000c tops. Which makes the claims of the Feds, Romulans, Klingons and Cardassians pure exaggeration - the vast majority of the Alpha Quadrant, let alone the Beta Quadrant, is in fact well outside of their territory. For instance, the claim that the Dominion would conquer the entire Alpha Quadrant was clearly nothing more than propaganda. All of the Federation, Klingon, Romulan and Cardassian territory combined would only amount to a couple thousand light years.

Not again.
1. VOY expected to need 70 years to get back home with no support, no maintenance, no resources other than they could scrounge from the locals (which at the the time that travel time estimate was made was 'none whatsoever').
1000c is the speed they expected to be able to keep up for freaking forever. Even ignoring TOS, their sprint speeds are 5 figure c range.

2. If you use c to mean ly one more time I'm going to very nearly kill you. c=speed of light. Lightyear/ly=distance. But feel free to explain how the Federation is spread across 8000 times the speed of light.