World of Warcraft: Legion

[Civil War Man]

I personally don't care about the Horde, or the Alliance for that matter. There's seems to be this metric with Blizzard: have Horde take from Alliance, have Alliance take from Horde. That's just poor writing and explanation. I've heard it said that WoD was making up for all the Horde centric stuff because Alliance got to kill old Horde heroes... this is, what? Even if that were true, it's not like it's Alliance only content. Even going back to MoP: We weren't the only ones farming Heirlooms off Garrosh.

Blizzard's metric seems to be more "Make Horde stuff into villains, make Alliance stuff neutral so Horde players still have stuff to do." That seems to be a major point of contention between Alliance and Horde players. Alliance players are disgruntled because the Horde keeps stabbing them in the back while Alliance NPC lecture them about how unreasonable they are being by focusing on the Horde when other threats exist. Horde players are disgruntled because they keep being forced to follow around former Alliance NPCs because the Horde NPCs keep getting turned into raid bosses.

Also, bonus points if Blizzard decides to show us how dangerous a new expansion's bad guys are by blowing up an Alliance town from Vanilla. Double bonus points if a Horde settlement or major character defects to the villain's side at the same time.

On a separate note, something else occurred to me about how Frost DK design is all screwed up. The devs have been promoting a faster style of combat in Frost for a long time. Setting aside the fact that fast combat fits a Blood aesthetic more than a Frost aesthetic, Frost has had a reputation of being a fast combat spec. Dual wielding is a faster style than big two-handed weapons, and even 2H Frost was a fast style ever since the brief time it was best to DPS in Unholy Presence (which forced the devs to shorten the DK GCD in all specs when they broke that play style). Only now Blizzard's vision of what DKs should be is slow and low mobility. Setting aside how mindbogglingly stupid that is, you now have a spec that dual wields, which makes people think fast combat, plodding around at low speed, with their only run speed boost being a short-duration channeled ability that cancels on any action other than walking (yes, even jumping apparently cancels Wraith Walk), and swinging their swords with an almost hilarious lack of urgency since their abilities are back on the old 1.5 second GCD.

[TheFeniX]

The same character has visited Cenarion Hold in Silithus and watched as Ashbringer was named in the Caverns of Time. It's been interesting seeing how far I can push the limits of a level 20 F2P character, and what the biggest obstacles are.

Really, it's going to be the level cap to enter certain areas/instances. Not saying you could solo MC at level 20, but hard locks added into the game based around level are the biggest hurdle, at least based on some reading I did years back about people working to down content (or other things) on lowbies. You could just farm invasions for boxes to become the richest level 20 out there. My Belf just broke 1K gold at level 51. Haven't exactly been trying though.

Also, bonus points if Blizzard decides to show us how dangerous a new expansion's bad guys are by blowing up an Alliance town from Vanilla. Double bonus points if a Horde settlement or major character defects to the villain's side at the same time.

Or, you know, just killing the last recognizable Paladin in a cutscene. We're hurting so bad for anyone relevant as a Plate wearing follower of the light, the Paladin class hall is getting some Belf chick Pally-wannabe. Another is a Nelf Priestess. Paladins looking relevant in 2016!

Setting aside how mindbogglingly stupid that is, you now have a spec that dual wields, which makes people think fast combat, plodding around at low speed, with their only run speed boost being a short-duration channeled ability that cancels on any action other than walking (yes, even jumping apparently cancels Wraith Walk), and swinging their swords with an almost hilarious lack of urgency since their abilities are back on the old 1.5 second GCD.

Frost is the slowest it's ever been. I think my current DW attack speed is about the same as my 2h Attack Speed back in Cata.

You'd think removing individual runes would speed it up, but it doesn't. I hit dead spots in my rotation constantly. I have next to no mobility, easily the weakest out of any melee class. Even Paladins can talent into 2 charge of Divine Steed. Warriors have tons more mobility with intercept/intervene and Heroic Path Not Found. Demon Hunters have that and their tank class even gets a small movement speed bonus on a short cooldown (when you burst into flames). Druids and Monks are fucking Druids and Monks. Rogues are actually one of the least mobile melee classes right now as the range on a lot of their teleports is stupidly low and they took burst of speed away. Outlaw does get that chain grapple thingy though. Whatever the fuck that is about.

The spec is DOA right now and Blizzard isn't likely to fix it because Unholy is in a good spot and they don't make sweeping changes for DK, especially since their stat synergy is broken as a matter of course with the cap on the GCD. I still find it relatively fun to play, but as I've said before: I'm glad I don't raid anymore because he'd easily be benched.

I can't disagree with the rest of your post, but I also believe there's merit to both because Blizzard is run by "Rule of Cool," so any idea which can half-ass stick to a story board and would make a good cutscene is in. Bonus points if it makes the Horde look cool/irredeemable assholes. Because they can always go on Twitter and bring up Varian's reaction to the Horde in LK to justify what the Horde does.

Back to Legion: Nothing happens for the final leg of the pre-Legion quest. We're just packing up and moving Dal to Broken Isles.

Glorious sidenote: Rob came back. His new lungs are working well, but he's confined to his home, so... all he can do is play WoW.

[TheFeniX]

So, the invasion shenanigans made it worthwhile to level my Belf Paladin to max. You know, because Alliance gets a shirt and a bonnet. While Horde gets 3 toys and Troll Shoes (hides foot armor). So, totally no bias here from Blizzard on handing out cool stuff..... like Blizzard giving Horde a free mount and Ally coughing up 100k for one. Thanks blizz.

Anyways, not really worth it, but the bags gave me enough money to buy flying and other stuff. Even by 100, I had enough bags left over to fully gear out my Horde Alt. Didn't get the Double Agent Ach with was lame. I assume Blizzard has already coded in the level cap increase.

Even assuming I did mostly only intro content and a few dungeons and leveled mostly through invasion, dealing with the Horde side of things has fully-convinced me: aside from one thing, there is nothing about the Horde that appeals to me. That one thing is Lor'themar. You spend a lot of time as a Horde getting shit on by the leadership: "Go here, Bitch. I order you." Ignoring that on Alliance side: you aren't regular military, so you very rarely get ordered anywhere, you take it upon yourself to help out.

Not in the Horde. You're treated as a conscript. "Your warchief demands an audience." "Yea, um, fuck him?"
Oh man, all of Garrosh in MoP. All of it.

But really, there's one sticking point that really sticks out and is all bloody. So, I just fight on the broken shore, Vol'jin gets stabbed. By a guy, based on the perspective of the camera, he should have seen because it was right it front of him. Vol'Jin shows us his Horror Movie survival skills. Sylvy calls in the valks, and he makes her Warchief because um.... he never trusted her, but.... um, ur, dur, she uh dragged his ass off a beach? She showed skill in trading cheesy one liners with Varian? She is... easy on the eyes? I seriously don't know, it makes no sense.

Worst part: Lor'Themar was standing right there. And he didn't give anyone any shit for it. Too good for this world I say.

But that's not what I meant to say. So, I meet Sylvy out in the blasted shit-hole that is Dur-taur (aside from SIlvermoon, every Horde area is fucking garbage. Org is only surpassed in shittiness by Undercity). Now, even though this particular character is all kinds of welfared geared, thematically I am a great god damn hero. Through multiple expansions, I prove (stupidly) my loyalty to the Horde.

Her comment to me is something to the effect of:
"Hello, Paladin. Your performance on the broken shore makes me stay my bow."

Is this bitch fucking serious? Did she just threaten to kill me? As a Blood Elf and a Paladin: that I couldn't slam my hammer into her ungrateful face and blast auto-crit exorcisms all up into her lady parts is criminal. My only dialog option is "For the Horde! Warchief" because Blizzard lacks a pair.

Seriously Horde: Your leaders are shit. The only decent anything you ever had was Thrall and that's.... man, that is fucking SAD. Is the Horde playerbase the product of broken homes? You shouldn't get to claim Captain Eyepatch at all. He should have bailed the second Thrall handed the keys over to Garrosh.

There is nothing, not a fucking thing, about being a Blood Elf or a Paladin that jives with the Horde. Blizz can make up whatever bullshit they want about how Alliance was "big meenies" so Lor'Themar instead continues to side with people who will destroy his own people at some point. I, as a sane person, am going under the assumption that Lor'Themar knows that leaving the Horde means it would be open season on his people. Even not joining the Alliance wouldn't work because Horde don't deal well with Neutral factions: if it ain't Orc, start stabbing it.

[Civil War Man]

We're hurting so bad for anyone relevant as a Plate wearing follower of the light, the Paladin class hall is getting some Belf chick Pally-wannabe. Another is a Nelf Priestess. Paladins looking relevant in 2016!

Fun fact: The Nelf Priestess was originally going to be Maximillian of Northshire (the Don Quixote reference from Un'goro). People found this out because for a while one of her follower abilities in the Alpha was "Delusions of Grandeur."

So Paladins almost had the privilege of having a certifiable madman as one of their champions.

So, the invasion shenanigans made it worthwhile to level my Belf Paladin to max. You know, because Alliance gets a shirt and a bonnet. While Horde gets 3 toys and Troll Shoes (hides foot armor). So, totally no bias here from Blizzard on handing out cool stuff..... like Blizzard giving Horde a free mount and Ally coughing up 100k for one. Thanks blizz.

To be fair, I heard that the Horde vendor is selling stuff that was previously obtainable in the Barrens grindfest prior to the Siege of Orgrimmar raid. At the very least, I remember the Troll Shoes being there.

That whole mount thing was a total debacle, though. No one cared about the chopper miniseries they paired it with, everyone knew the Horde bike would win regardless of which one looked better, and both bikes looked stupid (Horde was Orcs, Orcs, and more Orcs on tank treads, while the Alliance bike looked like a silvery beetle). Plus, the losing faction (which everyone knew would be Alliance) was originally going to get absolutely nothing in the promotion, until people pointed out that a) doing that put Ally achievement hunters at a disadvantage by making it easier for Horde to get the mount achievements, and b) it's a really stupid PR move to have a promotion that, by design, alienates up to half of your player base. The "Ally half to sink 100k gold to get the mount" part was the more palatable compromise from the original plan of Ally players basically getting a symbolic "Fuck you" from the developers.

Ignoring that on Alliance side: you aren't regular military, so you very rarely get ordered anywhere, you take it upon yourself to help out.

Not in the Horde. You're treated as a conscript. "Your warchief demands an audience." "Yea, um, fuck him?"
Oh man, all of Garrosh in MoP. All of it.

...

Her comment to me is something to the effect of:
"Hello, Paladin. Your performance on the broken shore makes me stay my bow."

Alliance quest givers seem to take our help for granted, Horde quest givers openly insult us to our faces. I've found that one of the only quest givers who actually seems to genuinely appreciate our help was Drakuru. At least, he did before we betrayed him.

[TheFeniX]

Fun fact: The Nelf Priestess was originally going to be Maximillian of Northshire (the Don Quixote reference from Un'goro). People found this out because for a while one of her follower abilities in the Alpha was "Delusions of Grandeur."

Oh man, really? I remember that guy. He's now on the SW edge of Tanaris during invasions "rescuing" all the "damsels" from the Legion. He got an upgrade though as he beats on Demon's fairly well.

Ok ok ok, you got me. I'll drop the complaint because at least Nelf females are very easy on the eyes.

So Paladins almost had the privilege of having a certifiable madman as one of their champions.

We've come so far.

Alliance quest givers seem to take our help for granted, Horde quest givers openly insult us to our faces. I've found that one of the only quest givers who actually seems to genuinely appreciate our help was Drakuru. At least, he did before we betrayed him.

Agreed, but it's even more than that. The amount of pure fucking evil is just staggering out of faction leads. Look at what Sylvy did to Koltira

Upon meeting Ravensun, it is revealed that she is, in fact, none other than the Dark Lady herself in disguise. She sends Horde agents and Val'kyr to assault the Alliance forces and turn the battle around. After the Alliance is defeated, Sylvanas confronts Koltira about the truce with Thassarian, and scolds him for being weak. A portal to the Undercity is opened and Koltira is pulled through by a hooked chain, where Sylvanas will attempt to purge him of his compassion for Thassarian and make him more of a servant of the Horde - more specifically, a servant of Sylvanas and the Forsaken

"You aren't loyal enough, rather than reprimanding you or relieving you of command, we're mind controlling your ass." You'd think the Death Knight faction of the Horde would be pretty damn uncool with their Horde numbers being re-mind-controlled when they don't tow the "show farmers and militia the horrors of war" line and don't immediately cut the throats of any Alliance Death Knights.

Garrosh offers Horde membership to the least civilized and most violent Orc Faction (the Dragonmaw) who have been trying to murder-roll all the Dorfs in Twilight Highlands because how dare they exist. The Dragonmaw then go on to pull all the Dragonmaw shit they did, even commiting treason later on, whereas the Wildhammers are made equals as part of the Council of Three Hammers. But the Dragonmaw were Orc Supremacists, so Garrosh was totally down with it.

But the Horde mantra is "Camp Taurajo." The Alliance (actually, just a few doods) burned a couple of huts on bad info, gave time for civilians to escape (some stayed and died), and even Baine called it a legit military target and all the sudden "Alliance be evil yo!" They have one example and maybe a few other isolated incidents, all of which were Horde bullshit which drove Alliance characters to great lengths (Jaina). But the laundry list of how bad the Horde faction (Orcs and Undead really) fucks the Alliance AND Azeroth is just really REALLY long.

We have evil madman in The Alliance, The Horde is run by them.
"Dismantle the Horde:" Only sane woman on Azeroth.

[Lord Revan]

there seems to be 3000+ player queue before me even at middle of the night I hope the servers can endure it.

[Grumman]

Seriously Horde: Your leaders are shit. The only decent anything you ever had was Thrall and that's.... man, that is fucking SAD. Is the Horde playerbase the product of broken homes? You shouldn't get to claim Captain Eyepatch at all. He should have bailed the second Thrall handed the keys over to Garrosh.

Based on my limited experience on the Horde side (level 20 Goblin & level 20 Blood Elf), I'd say Garrosh, Sylvanas and Gallywix are bad, but Vol'jin, Thrall and the Bloodhooves are decent. I haven't had much to do with Lor'themar, but I'll take your word for it that he's one of the good ones.

Gallywix I can handwave as a defect of the Goblin zeitgeist - sure, he tried to sell us into slavery, but he's pretty much contained and it all worked out in the end so we're too busy swimming in gold to throw him off his mountaintop mansion. Garrosh and Sylvanas, though... Sylvanas didn't have to be shit. She should have been the leader of a diverse nation: intelligent undead freed from the Scourge, human sympathisers, and former human sympathisers who made the choice to become Forsaken upon their deaths. There should have been absolutely nothing about Sylvanas & co committing acts of genocide against humans with plans for more, or about raising the dead without already having their consent.

[TheFeniX]

Based on my limited experience on the Horde side (level 20 Goblin & level 20 Blood Elf), I'd say Garrosh, Sylvanas and Gallywix are bad, but Vol'jin, Thrall and the Bloodhooves are decent. I haven't had much to do with Lor'themar, but I'll take your word for it that he's one of the good ones.

Yea, I'm being a bit harsh here. The Tauren are mostly hippies and are slow to anger, but pretty damn dangerous to piss off. They at least hold to a set of rules where they're worth dealing with and they even treat their enemies with respect. The Trolls have also chilled out a lot, at least those in the Horde. The Goblins have always been opportunistic, but not really downright evil.

I trash on Vol'Jin, but he's more than loyal to his own faction and loyal to a point to opposing factions when the need arises (such as when the Zandalri and other Trolls show up). He'll play his part with the Alliance and offer a clean break. Sure, he's back to Fo Da Horde after, but he plays it straight. Blizz writing plays an otherwise competent leader/follower as a chump when the guy is supposed to be a badass.

But the Orcs just wait around for their chance to push Orc supremacy. Yes, there's a few "Humans First" Alliance running around, but no one really agrees with them. But when some Orc (Garrosh) starts in with the Orc First mantra: all the other Orcs line up behind him or at least a large enough majority to require the intervention of the Alliance AND Horde rebels to put them down.

The Forsaken and their Lich Queen never skip an opportunity to bolster their ranks and Garrosh never tried to really stop her because it A. didn't affect Orcs (you can't raise them as your run of the mill Undead) and B. Hurt the Alliance (read: non-Orcs). As long as she continues to spit in the face of Horde Shamans at the behest of the Horde: she's allowed to do whatever.

Even as they tried to clean her (and the Forsaken) image up after Cata, you get Koltira, Gilneas, her comments in the Siege of Orgrimmar, her comment to my Paladin.*

This is why I consider my own head-cannon that Lor'Themar's real reason for not joining the Alliance or just trying to go neutral is that Garrosh would have instantly sicced Sylvannas onto his people as he did with Gilneas. Silvermoon city is striking distance from Undercity and any Alliance reinforcements are much further away. Now that she's in control, he has good reason to be even more worried.

She should have been the leader of a diverse nation: intelligent undead freed from the Scourge, human sympathisers, and former human sympathisers who made the choice to become Forsaken upon their deaths. There should have been absolutely nothing about Sylvanas & co committing acts of genocide against humans with plans for more, or about raising the dead without already having their consent.

I doubt you could find a single human who lived through the Third War who would agree to being raised as a Forsaken. Maybe some of the crazier ones or cultish like. But to Blizzard, it's how sister's can reconnect..... ugh.

*I wish to God I could draw. I'd draw a comic that was her comment to my character. Second panel would be a "Now, pledge your alle....."
And the third panel is a fucking hammer hitting her in the face, close-up. This hammer in particular.

[Grumman]

She should have been the leader of a diverse nation: intelligent undead freed from the Scourge, human sympathisers, and former human sympathisers who made the choice to become Forsaken upon their deaths. There should have been absolutely nothing about Sylvanas & co committing acts of genocide against humans with plans for more, or about raising the dead without already having their consent.

I doubt you could find a single human who lived through the Third War who would agree to being raised as a Forsaken. Maybe some of the crazier ones or cultish like. But to Blizzard, it's how sister's can reconnect..... ugh.

Yes, that's what I meant: mainstream human society should remain strongly anti-undead, but there should be a non-zero number of humans who take the "immortality, at any cost" view, and that Sylvanas and the Forsaken should take a "live and let live" approach to humans instead of committing genocide against them.

[TheFeniX]

Fair point. I just find it "hilarious" that the actions of the non-scourge Forsaken would lead people to hate them MORE than the Scourge. At least said Scourge were mindless meat-shields for the Legion. Sylvannas and many Forsaken are capable of mercy, pity, and other redeemable emotions and actually have the capacity to co-exist peacefully with living races.

But they choose not to. Either through circumstance or brutality. Sometimes both.

This is kind of the same deal with Orcs: multiple neutral and Alliance factions are willing to co-exist peacefully with them. However, they seem incapable of NOT picking a fight whenever it is semi-convenient.

Anyways, some Legion stuff. So SPOILERS!

It is nice for once that Horde will have to interact with mostly Human (read: non-orc) characters. At least for my Belf, she was named head of the Silver Hand. I want to see how that plays out with my Draenai Shaman.

Tirion didn't die on the broken shore. Retadins get to rescue him... then he dies.

I'm not big on the Val'kyr/Valhalla/Norse whatever stuff with the Warrior. Doesn't fit thematically for me. The Warrior class was just the mundane in a world filled Light, Shadow, The Elements, The Arcane, and Nature. They got by through toughness, guile, and a whole lot of RAAAAAGE. That said, the "flightmaster" for the Warrior class hall sends you screaming down to Azeroth where you impact the ground leaving fissures. That is right up my alley.

Death Knights: bringing back the 4 Horsemen. First guy up for the job: Nazgrim. Bet that's pissing a few Horde off. I'm basically LK light. Why are people glossing over that I can raise Death Knights? Does it tire me out (doesn't seem to)? Seems I should be using that more. However, this power is likely borrowed from Bolivar, so maybe he's holding it in check.

This shit is rough. Geared out, these mobs hit hard. Even my Blood DK is relying on CDs. My Warrior is getting (to use a term) "pwned" as fury. My damage output is insane, however I get hit hard and mob spawns are too high. Meanwhile, my Vengeance DH: you feel like a badass as you tank multiple mobs and burn them down with zero issues. Tankadin is kind of the same way, just takes longer to do.

Blizzard can't seem to into "moderation." The playerbase complained that the player was glossed over in the narrative. Their solution: make you super-awesome mccool cheese Cornmander of the Faction. Now it's "every other member of your class bows to kiss your ass and here's weapons of super-awesomeness." I had a GM like this for a few sessions years back. He used to dump on us constantly. Put us up against terrible odds for little reward. We complained a bit. So then he just started dumping magic everything on us for every won battle. +4 weapons, Lands and title for clearing out some Goblins.

It's like Blizzard has the mentality of a high school PnP DM.

[Broomstick]

But really, there's one sticking point that really sticks out and is all bloody. So, I just fight on the broken shore, Vol'jin gets stabbed. By a guy, based on the perspective of the camera, he should have seen because it was right it front of him. Vol'Jin shows us his Horror Movie survival skills. Sylvy calls in the valks, and he makes her Warchief because um.... he never trusted her, but.... um, ur, dur, she uh dragged his ass off a beach? She showed skill in trading cheesy one liners with Varian? She is... easy on the eyes? I seriously don't know, it makes no sense.

The way I read it, the Legion is the baddest of bad asses and Azeroth, Horde and Alliance alike, are facing a battle for their very existence. In that light, putting the absolutely most ruthless, driven, vicious leader in charge of the offensive does make some sense.

The Taurans are nice guys - but you don't need a nice guy, you need an effective war leader willing to do whatever is required to enable survival and eventual victory. The Orcs? They have a bad record of succumbing to demonic temptation and/or just plain old-fashioned corruption. Trolls? Well, Vol'jin would know them best, let's just assume he knew there wasn't anyone up and coming there who could do the job. Goblins? The trade-prince would sell the Horde into slavery to save his own ass. You're right, Lor'themar is arguably a candidate, but what's one quality that Sylvanas has always had?

She is incredibly devoted to the survival of those she sees as her people. Ruthless, utterly utterly ruthless, vicious and brutal. Make her see the Horde as her own people and she'll defend them just thoroughly as she has the Foresaken.

I think that was the angle they were aiming for.

[Lord Revan]

But really, there's one sticking point that really sticks out and is all bloody. So, I just fight on the broken shore, Vol'jin gets stabbed. By a guy, based on the perspective of the camera, he should have seen because it was right it front of him. Vol'Jin shows us his Horror Movie survival skills. Sylvy calls in the valks, and he makes her Warchief because um.... he never trusted her, but.... um, ur, dur, she uh dragged his ass off a beach? She showed skill in trading cheesy one liners with Varian? She is... easy on the eyes? I seriously don't know, it makes no sense.

The way I read it, the Legion is the baddest of bad asses and Azeroth, Horde and Alliance alike, are facing a battle for their very existence. In that light, putting the absolutely most ruthless, driven, vicious leader in charge of the offensive does make some sense.

The Taurans are nice guys - but you don't need a nice guy, you need an effective war leader willing to do whatever is required to enable survival and eventual victory. The Orcs? They have a bad record of succumbing to demonic temptation and/or just plain old-fashioned corruption. Trolls? Well, Vol'jin would know them best, let's just assume he knew there wasn't anyone up and coming there who could do the job. Goblins? The trade-prince would sell the Horde into slavery to save his own ass. You're right, Lor'themar is arguably a candidate, but what's one quality that Sylvanas has always had?

She is incredibly devoted to the survival of those she sees as her people. Ruthless, utterly utterly ruthless, vicious and brutal. Make her see the Horde as her own people and she'll defend them just thoroughly as she has the Foresaken.

I think that was the angle they were aiming for.

As a high elf Sylvanas Windrunner died defending her people (her people being the elves of Quel'thalas in that case) and if anything that trait has become stronger in undeath and something we shouldn't forget is that Sylvanas absolutely hates the Burning Legion for turning her into what she is now, Sylvanas knows the Legion created the Scourge and the Lich King and she has not forgiven them for that (or the coup they tried during Wrath of the Lich King). So Sylvanas will be utterly ruthless and uncompromicing in defending the Horde if she sees them as "her people" and she will not side with the Legion.

[Civil War Man]

As a high elf Sylvanas Windrunner died defending her people (her people being the elves of Quel'thalas in that case) and if anything that trait has become stronger in undeath and something we shouldn't forget is that Sylvanas absolutely hates the Burning Legion for turning her into what she is now, Sylvanas knows the Legion created the Scourge and the Lich King and she has not forgiven them for that (or the coup they tried during Wrath of the Lich King). So Sylvanas will be utterly ruthless and uncompromicing in defending the Horde if she sees them as "her people" and she will not side with the Legion.

All of that falls apart, though, when you consider her actions during Legion questing. SPOILERS for those who care, unmasked because the spoiler tags are broken.

She attempts to enslave the Val'kyr in order to obtain immortality for herself. For those unfamiliar with the Warrior campaign in Legion, Odyn originally created the Val'kyr in order to preserve Vrykul Warriors so they can fight the Legion (Arthas later managed to copy this using the Vrykul that worshiped him in order to create the Scourge Val'kyr). Not only did she ignore the Legion in order to pursue this, she was actually helping the Legion by attempting to sabotage a major source of troops that would fight the Legion for her own personal gain.

One of the main problems is that it's been established since at least 2011 that Sylvanas does not care about anyone else, including the Horde and Forsaken, beyond their ability to serve her interests. And her interests, as explicitly spelled out in the Edge of Night short story, is to try to avoid death in order to escape the afterlife she saw when she attempted to kill herself after Arthas's death. To her, the Horde and the Forsaken are only there to act as a meat shield to protect her from damnation. By all accounts, she would gladly feed them all into the meat grinder if she was reasonably sure that it would buy her enough time. And should she succeed, then they are no longer useful to her, and the lot of them can burn for all she cares.

[TheFeniX]

CWM stole my post. I'll add that I think it's hilarious Sylvannas can't go 5 minutes without pissing off some major faction. For the record: Warriors are champions of Odyn in Legion. So.... the entire class should want her head for what she's done. But nothing will come of it. Also, "someone forgot the safe word."

And another quest zone where Alliance chases down Horde pulling shady shit.

I don't get the aura of super-awesomeness that seems to surround Sylvannas. You'd think the playerbase and general media stream would dislike her, but they play off blatantly evil ploys by calling her a "Tragic Hero" (she's not) and an anti-hero (she's not). There's way to much general masturbation around her (and not just because of "datass"). People basically fell in love with Undead Hilter with boobs. (going all Godwin up in here).

But I'll say the same thing I said to my buddy: "At least Hitler had a dog. That puts him a step above Slyvy." She's a villan, pure and simple. Just because she has moments where she NOT trying to kill everyone does not change that. Darth Vader had short moments of weakness during his galactic conquest. He damn sure wasn't a Tragic Hero even if Anakin was.

Sylvannas really shows me how fucking stupid the WoW community is in general. You want to like her because she's cool for a evil bastard, fine. But the amount of excuses thought up from the playerbase and WoW media is hilarious. This is why video game writing is considered shit people. Because writers like those at WoW just put whatever down on paper and don't think about any of the real consequences that would come from what they've writing.

There's already been a few threads since Legion dropped, but if you started a thread on the WoW forums entitled "Sylvannas is evil," they would come out of the woodworks to defend her actions. And there's also some edgy teens who would be like "yea, yea, WE'RE EVIL!" And I would laugh as they try to portray the Horde as civilized in any way.

[Broomstick]

But I'll say the same thing I said to my buddy: "At least Hitler had a dog. That puts him a step above Slyvy." She's a villan, pure and simple. Just because she has moments where she NOT trying to kill everyone does not change that. Darth Vader had short moments of weakness during his galactic conquest. He damn sure wasn't a Tragic Hero even if Anakin was.

Er.... they're the same person. Of course, a Tragic Hero can descend into villainy, but that doesn't eliminate the Tragic Hero phase.

Sylvannas really shows me how fucking stupid the WoW community is in general. You want to like her because she's cool for a evil bastard, fine. But the amount of excuses thought up from the playerbase and WoW media is hilarious. This is why video game writing is considered shit people. Because writers like those at WoW just put whatever down on paper and don't think about any of the real consequences that would come from what they've writing.

The primary responsibility of "video game writers" is to generate a game that keeps the money rolling in via keeping the players playing. WoW seems to have mastered that one. Granted they no longer have 12 millions subscribers or whatever the peak number was, but there are still sufficient to keep the lights on. "Video game writers" are NOT there to generate a novel, or even a coherent narrative over the long term. Continuity is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down on the list, as are rational motivations or a lot of other things considered essential in other media.

There's already been a few threads since Legion dropped, but if you started a thread on the WoW forums entitled "Sylvannas is evil," they would come out of the woodworks to defend her actions. And there's also some edgy teens who would be like "yea, yea, WE'RE EVIL!" And I would laugh as they try to portray the Horde as civilized in any way.

One of the appeals of certain types of video game characters is playing an evil character - my Foresaken warlock in WoW is an evil bad-ass who, if given a moral choice, is going to pick the bad one/left hand path/EEEEEEEEEEEEEVUUUUL! one. Because after a hard day at work suppressing my urge to choke the living shit out of someone that richly deserves it - i.e. "taking the high road" - it feels good to fantasize about cutting loose and giving into those evil, violent impulses.

At this point I don't give a fuck about 90% of the narrative. We've got broken continuity, a reboot, and arbitrary personality changes. Who the fuck cares? Give me baubles and pew-pew. It's a fucking game, not the Great American Fantasy Novel.

So yes, in fact, you have a sub-group who are HAPPY Sylvanas is evil. Also, there can never be peace on Azeroth because then there'd be no reason for a new expansion so there always has to be something fucking things up. It will be "Yay! We defeated the Legion!" then of course Sylvanas will backstab someone or something, because there always has to be conflict to keep the game going. That's why it's WARcraft and no Diplomacycraft or Capitalistcommercecraft or whatever.

[Grumman]

The way I read it, the Legion is the baddest of bad asses and Azeroth, Horde and Alliance alike, are facing a battle for their very existence. In that light, putting the absolutely most ruthless, driven, vicious leader in charge of the offensive does make some sense.

No, it doesn't. Sylvanas has burnt too many bridges to be a credible leader. We are literally talking about the person who murdered the Alliance leader's son right in front of him, after attempting to commit genocide against his people. The only way you could find somebody less capable of leading a united Azeroth to victory is if you nominated Gul'dan.

[Broomstick]

Oh? I guess I missed that bit of lore - or are you talking about Genn Greymane? Admittedly, I'm not keeping up with all the Lore because, frankly, I don't care much about it at this point.

Look, no one is saying Sylvanas is nice - she isn't. She's a nasty, nasty bitch. But "oh, she murdered so-and-so's son in front of him" is not automatically disqualifying for leadership. Real history is replete with leaders who murdered and committed genocide and were hailed as heroes by their side (Vlad Tepes, for example). That's part of the point - the threat faced by Azeroth is so fucking terrible that people will unite behind an evil bitch if it gives them the chance to win. Rather like the Alliance Night Elves freed the Illidari to fight for Azeroth. War makes strange bedfellows (the alliance between Stalin and the UK/US during WWII). Have no fear, when the Legion is defeated whatever union was created to deal with them will immediately fracture and the various factions will go back to trying to exterminate each other.

[TheFeniX]

Er.... they're the same person. Of course, a Tragic Hero can descend into villainy, but that doesn't eliminate the Tragic Hero phase.

Sylvannas' Tragic Hero phase was gone since the end of LK. Since then she has descended into a pit of villainy the likes of which would make Vader jealous. And no, thematically Vader and Anakin are not the same person, but I'm not turning this into a SW thread: so cut the "even if Anakin was." My point was that people were drawn to Vader because he was evil AND a badass. You don't find anyone trying to justify his murderous deeds, at least no one sane.

And I could buy that, but I can't buy anyone on Azeroth putting her in charge of shit. It's lazy ass writing.

The primary responsibility of "video game writers" is to generate a game that keeps the money rolling in via keeping the players playing. WoW seems to have mastered that one. Granted they no longer have 12 millions subscribers or whatever the peak number was, but there are still sufficient to keep the lights on. "Video game writers" are NOT there to generate a novel, or even a coherent narrative over the long term. Continuity is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down on the list, as are rational motivations or a lot of other things considered essential in other media.

That's a pretty weak argument for shit writing. One of the big selling points of WoW by Blizzard and the playerbase was the massive amounts of built-in and easy to understand lore. Further, people didn't buy into 2 Mass Effect sequels based off the combat: people playing RPGs like well-written stories.

One of the appeals of certain types of video game characters is playing an evil character - my Foresaken warlock in WoW is an evil bad-ass who, if given a moral choice, is going to pick the bad one/left hand path/EEEEEEEEEEEEEVUUUUL! one. Because after a hard day at work suppressing my urge to choke the living shit out of someone that richly deserves it - i.e. "taking the high road" - it feels good to fantasize about cutting loose and giving into those evil, violent impulses.

Which fits into what I thought the Forsaken would actually be at launch: a hard-mode "fuck it all" faction KOS for Horde and Alliance. Having them in the Horde made no sense outside a "meat shield" level. The opening narration supported this.

However, after LK: the Undead playerbase kicked up a fuss about how unapologetically evil the Forsaken could and have been. A big part of this was attempting to turn Sylvy around as a character. To humanize her and give her a change of heart.... while she gassed civilians.

At this point I don't give a fuck about 90% of the narrative. We've got broken continuity, a reboot, and arbitrary personality changes. Who the fuck cares? Give me baubles and pew-pew. It's a fucking game, not the Great American Fantasy Novel.

Shit writing is shit writing. Imagine Genn had killed Sylvy at Legion start and the Horde were like "whatever." That's what the lore has become: Blizzard glossing over/flat-out ignoring what should be huge cock-ups.

So yes, in fact, you have a sub-group who are HAPPY Sylvanas is evil. Also, there can never be peace on Azeroth because then there'd be no reason for a new expansion so there always has to be something fucking things up. It will be "Yay! We defeated the Legion!" then of course Sylvanas will backstab someone or something, because there always has to be conflict to keep the game going. That's why it's WARcraft and no Diplomacycraft or Capitalistcommercecraft or whatever.

Expansion end-bosses: Kil'Jaeden, Arthas, Deathwing, Garrosh (an Orc supremacist at the time), Gul'Dan(Archi), and now the Legion: there are plenty of non-Alliance and non-Horde to wage war against.

That the Horde continue to backstab the shit out of the Alliance and Azeroth as a whole means they should have been dismantled.

But "oh, she murdered so-and-so's son in front of him" is not automatically disqualifying for leadership. Real history is replete with leaders who murdered and committed genocide and were hailed as heroes by their side (Vlad Tepes, for example). That's part of the point - the threat faced by Azeroth is so fucking terrible that people will unite behind an evil bitch if it gives them the chance to win. Rather like the Alliance Night Elves freed the Illidari to fight for Azeroth. War makes strange bedfellows (the alliance between Stalin and the UK/US during WWII). Have no fear, when the Legion is defeated whatever union was created to deal with them will immediately fracture and the various factions will go back to trying to exterminate each other.

The Nelves in the Alliance aren't continuing to try and fuck everyone. Sylvy can't even be counted on to not commit attrocities on her own allys: Blood Elves at SoO, Koltira which should have had the DK Horde faction at war, and now Warriors in general.

And her FIRST official act as warchief of the Horde was to cut a deal with cursed-Norse-Devil chick to enslave an entire race of beings for her own benefit. Not the Alliance, not the Horde, not even the Forsaken: her own personal benefit. While a war is going on and like CWM mentioned: trying to steal good soldiers in the fight against the Legion.

Kerrigian 2.0 is pure fucking cancer to Azeroth. She shouldn't be in charge of a latrine, much less an entire faction.

We could have had a moment where GREYMANE was hurting Azeroth with his vendetta against Sylvy. But NOPE: he just happens to stumble upon a plan that, if the roles were switched (imagine Graymane making the same deal to cure the Worgen curse) not a single fucking person would be claiming Greymane wasn't an asshole. And he damn sure would be out on his ass in the Alliance.... if Blizzard even bothered to write a few lines of dialog.

But "something something voo-doo spirits say Kerrgia... I mean ur, The Banshee Queen of Blade.... ur, whatever: SHE'S SUPER-SPECIAL YO! Put her in charge." I wonder if any Sylvy fanatics realize Blizzard is completely recycling Starcraft 2 horseshit for Sylvannas.

[Broomstick]

The primary responsibility of "video game writers" is to generate a game that keeps the money rolling in via keeping the players playing. WoW seems to have mastered that one. Granted they no longer have 12 millions subscribers or whatever the peak number was, but there are still sufficient to keep the lights on. "Video game writers" are NOT there to generate a novel, or even a coherent narrative over the long term. Continuity is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down on the list, as are rational motivations or a lot of other things considered essential in other media.

That's a pretty weak argument for shit writing. One of the big selling points of WoW by Blizzard and the playerbase was the massive amounts of built-in and easy to understand lore. Further, people didn't buy into 2 Mass Effect sequels based off the combat: people playing RPGs like well-written stories.

Well, sure, well written stories are great but they are not, in fact, essential to a video game's success. They narrative only has to be good enough, it doesn't need to be great.

I dunno, maybe it's a lot like the 40+ years of most comic book heroes at this point - the continuity is shot to shit, people don't react like people, and shit doesn't alway make sense. Yet people keep buying it.

One of the appeals of certain types of video game characters is playing an evil character - my Foresaken warlock in WoW is an evil bad-ass who, if given a moral choice, is going to pick the bad one/left hand path/EEEEEEEEEEEEEVUUUUL! one. Because after a hard day at work suppressing my urge to choke the living shit out of someone that richly deserves it - i.e. "taking the high road" - it feels good to fantasize about cutting loose and giving into those evil, violent impulses.

Which fits into what I thought the Forsaken would actually be at launch: a hard-mode "fuck it all" faction KOS for Horde and Alliance. Having them in the Horde made no sense outside a "meat shield" level. The opening narration supported this.

However, after LK: the Undead playerbase kicked up a fuss about how unapologetically evil the Forsaken could and have been. A big part of this was attempting to turn Sylvy around as a character. To humanize her and give her a change of heart.... while she gassed civilians.

Yeah, I was disappointed that so many Foresaken players wanted the undead to be good guys. Clueless people are clueless. The best of the Forsaken is still a tragic figure, still an animated corpse.

At this point I don't give a fuck about 90% of the narrative. We've got broken continuity, a reboot, and arbitrary personality changes. Who the fuck cares? Give me baubles and pew-pew. It's a fucking game, not the Great American Fantasy Novel.

Shit writing is shit writing. Imagine Genn had killed Sylvy at Legion start and the Horde were like "whatever." That's what the lore has become: Blizzard glossing over/flat-out ignoring what should be huge cock-ups.

It's not like Sylvanas is really all that "loved" by anyone. The Horde might have shrugged their shoulders and half of them breathe a sigh of relief if she was offed before becoming Warchief. In which case Lor'themar might have wound up in that spot.

So yes, in fact, you have a sub-group who are HAPPY Sylvanas is evil. Also, there can never be peace on Azeroth because then there'd be no reason for a new expansion so there always has to be something fucking things up. It will be "Yay! We defeated the Legion!" then of course Sylvanas will backstab someone or something, because there always has to be conflict to keep the game going. That's why it's WARcraft and no Diplomacycraft or Capitalistcommercecraft or whatever.

Expansion end-bosses: Kil'Jaeden, Arthas, Deathwing, Garrosh (an Orc supremacist at the time), Gul'Dan(Archi), and now the Legion: there are plenty of non-Alliance and non-Horde to wage war against.

Arthas was originally a human from Lordaeron. Illidan was originally a Nelf. So it's not like it's unprecedented to have a Big Bad from the "hero" ranks. And largely Azeroth unites with their enemies for an outside threat - against the Legion, against the invading Orcs, against the Scourge, against the Legion again... Over the entire course of WoW you have episodes of war with occasional peace breaking out that then has to be fucked up by someone or other.

That the Horde continue to backstab the shit out of the Alliance and Azeroth as a whole means they should have been dismantled.

Right. Because concentration camps and genocide are "good" things if the Alliance does it, right?

And her FIRST official act as warchief of the Horde was to cut a deal with cursed-Norse-Devil chick to enslave an entire race of beings for her own benefit. Not the Alliance, not the Horde, not even the Forsaken: her own personal benefit. While a war is going on and like CWM mentioned: trying to steal good soldiers in the fight against the Legion.

I'll have to take your word on that because I haven't gotten that far in Legion.

Kerrigian 2.0 is pure fucking cancer to Azeroth. She shouldn't be in charge of a latrine, much less an entire faction.

Which is, of course, a problem with kingship - you don't really know what sort of saint or asshole is going to wind up on the throne. You hope it's a good guy, but actual history is replete with assholes. Maybe Vol'jin's vision was due to corrupting poison on a Legion blade. Maybe he was delirious.

We could have had a moment where GREYMANE was hurting Azeroth with his vendetta against Sylvy. But NOPE: he just happens to stumble upon a plan that, if the roles were switched (imagine Graymane making the same deal to cure the Worgen curse) not a single fucking person would be claiming Greymane wasn't an asshole. And he damn sure would be out on his ass in the Alliance.... if Blizzard even bothered to write a few lines of dialog.

Greymane IS an asshole - he sliced his kingdom off from the rest of the planet rather than help his neighbors and only changed his stance when he had lost his humanity, his kingdom, and his son. He would have happily watched the rest of the world burn so long as his own kingdom escaped the flames. If he cooperates with the Alliance now it's because that's the cost of evacuating his people to Darnassus and living on the sufferance of others.

I wonder if any Sylvy fanatics realize Blizzard is completely recycling Starcraft 2 horseshit for Sylvannas.

Maybe not - I'm completely unfamiliar with Starcraft 2 so if there's any parallels I wouldn't get them.

[Civil War Man]

Well, sure, well written stories are great but they are not, in fact, essential to a video game's success. They narrative only has to be good enough, it doesn't need to be great.

I dunno, maybe it's a lot like the 40+ years of most comic book heroes at this point - the continuity is shot to shit, people don't react like people, and shit doesn't alway make sense. Yet people keep buying it.

Well written stories aren't necessarily essential to a game's success, but a badly written story in a game that purports to be heavily story-driven is essential to its downfall. WoW's mostly been operating on inertia. People keep buying it, but fewer people are coming back each year. The last released subscription numbers were at the lowest point they've been since Vanilla, and Blizzard showed their hand when they said they were going to stop announcing subscription numbers entirely. It revealed that they expect subscription numbers to be stagnant at best, because there is absolutely no way that a business would willing pass up the positive PR that would result from what would essentially be a renaissance of their flagship product.

Yeah, I was disappointed that so many Foresaken players wanted the undead to be good guys. Clueless people are clueless. The best of the Forsaken is still a tragic figure, still an animated corpse.

Most people I know who play or played Forsaken want them to be like the Ebon Blade, a faction willing to do bad things for the right reasons and act as the quiet heroes of a planet that hates them. The Forsaken as written are just an openly villainous faction, which ends up turning the Horde into a villainous faction by extension by first tolerating them, and now openly embracing them by elevating their leader to Warchief.

I actually just got back from a party with a few people I know who used to play WoW. None of them are coming back. Several were on the fence until they heard the words "Warchief Sylvanas."

So yes, in fact, you have a sub-group who are HAPPY Sylvanas is evil. Also, there can never be peace on Azeroth because then there'd be no reason for a new expansion so there always has to be something fucking things up. It will be "Yay! We defeated the Legion!" then of course Sylvanas will backstab someone or something, because there always has to be conflict to keep the game going. That's why it's WARcraft and no Diplomacycraft or Capitalistcommercecraft or whatever.

"It's not World of Peacecraft" is one of the big cop-out excuses that's usually said by players with an attitude of "My faction's doing fine, fuck everyone else."

Arthas was originally a human from Lordaeron. Illidan was originally a Nelf. So it's not like it's unprecedented to have a Big Bad from the "hero" ranks. And largely Azeroth unites with their enemies for an outside threat - against the Legion, against the invading Orcs, against the Scourge, against the Legion again... Over the entire course of WoW you have episodes of war with occasional peace breaking out that then has to be fucked up by someone or other.

Thing is, during the time of WoW, whenever the peace between the Alliance and Horde has been broken, it has invariably been the result of aggression or betrayal on the part of the Horde, with the possible exception of the beginning of Legion where it was the result of the Horde abandoning the fight and leaving the Alliance forces to die instead of openly attacking them.

Right. Because concentration camps and genocide are "good" things if the Alliance does it, right?

Thing is, the people who ran the concentration camps are not exalted as paragons of the Alliance.

I'll have to take your word on that because I haven't gotten that far in Legion.

Here's the cutscene I was referring to. Feel free to skip it if you don't want spoilers. It happens at the end of Stormheim questing.



For reference, the giant Val'kyr in that scene is one of the main ones empowered by Odyn with the ability to create more Val'kyr.

Greymane IS an asshole - he sliced his kingdom off from the rest of the planet rather than help his neighbors and only changed his stance when he had lost his humanity, his kingdom, and his son. He would have happily watched the rest of the world burn so long as his own kingdom escaped the flames. If he cooperates with the Alliance now it's because that's the cost of evacuating his people to Darnassus and living on the sufferance of others.

Which means that he is either an asshole who had a revelation of how wrong he had been when it had cost him everything, or he is an asshole that at least knows the meaning of loyalty. But if he had continued to be an asshole and pursued his vendetta to the expense of everyone else on the planet, no one would be defending him at all. That's not the case here, since his vendetta resulted in him disrupting Sylvanas's attempts to undermine the fight against the Legion for her own personal gain, since the Val'kyr are responsible for collecting the souls of fallen warriors so they can be organized into an army to oppose the Legion.

[TheFeniX]

CWM all up in my posts. I won't retread over what he's said, but I'll make one addition:

EDIT: One more addition because you stole an awesome comment I was going to make about that cutscene:

"I'm as much a fan of lesbian bondage as the next guy, but someone forgot the safeword!"

Eh...? Eh??? Aw cmon, you people are no fun! Not gonna lie, got a thing for meaty Amazonian women.

It's arguable about Greymane's motivations going after Sylvanas. Since the mission was backed by Anduin, and that guy is a hippie beat-nick, I have to wonder if there was some intelligence the player wasn't in on since I don't see him being involved otherwise. But Greymane's Vendetta, as CWM pointed out, was to the benefit of everyone on Azeroth except Sylvanas. Had this been a cliche action movie: the roles would have been extremely clear.*

SIDENOTE: I do not have the full story of the bullshit that went on due to PvP shenanigans. I missed most the dialog in hellheim. More at bottom of post.

On another note:

Maybe not - I'm completely unfamiliar with Starcraft 2 so if there's any parallels I wouldn't get them.

Blizz cops out of all the bullshit karma Kerrigan built for herself (killing Fenix, ZOMG!, for just one) in Starcraft/Brood War by having Zeratul tell Raynor (who promised he'd kill her next time he saw her) "I had a vision, we need her to fight THE ANCIENT EVIL."

It's even better because Sylvanas is literally "Fantasy Kerrigan:" Seriously, read her back story. It's hilarious. It's just funny to see Blizzard do another story where the exact same type of woman dodges repercussions for everything she does because some "Mystic" says "we need her."

It's got to be one of the weakest plot devices of shit writers (MY PROPHECY!) and Blizzard fucking LOVES it to death. And really, when it comes to women, their flip-side isn't any better. Jaina is only one of the most powerful mages on Azeroth. Piping-hot fucking mad at the Horde AND SHE SHOW US HER AWESOMENESS.... by grabbing her toys and going home.

Back to gameplay:
The Hellheim area broke me. Years of PvP and even CRZ couldn't do that through MoP and WoD. But Hellheim......There were so many Horde there it was ridiculous. Most wouldn't bother me, but some were looking to pick on the maybe 5-10 Alliance in there. Quest turn in areas were rife with Alliance deaths. When they came at me, and they were my level, they'd start getting wrecked by a Tank DH. Then another Horde, usually in the 109-110 level would get involved. At 103, it wasn't a fight. I got so fed up until I realized you can respawn instantly. So, I started dropping sigils and AOEs on Horde at bottle-necks, getting more than a few kills. They could hold up a few Alliance. I could hold up a whole lot more with silences, fears, and a shitton of AOE.

Finally another Demon Hunter on the Horde side asked in Demonic if I could stop. So I told him "Any Horde on Cho'Gall and Burning Anuses can eat my ass." and just kept trolling. Can't believe it took this long, but I personally hate the guy who flipped the switch to make that area CRZ. And I expect more of this from Blizz, because if the number were actually balanced: you'd have fun PvP but nothing would get done without one faction being able to stomp.

WPvP has always been a joke, but it's not funny anymore.

My DH main is fun. Still leveling my Warrior. Feels weird playing 2 females as primaries. But DK and Paladin are hella-boring right now.

[TheFeniX]

Profession are just fucked. Engineering is a joke. They want like 80 felslate per craft for the quest objectives and even then: the shit you get to make is garbage. The cost in mats alone is outrageous. I also read that, until it was just recently hotfix, a major quest objective was tied to a BC rare on a 1-4 day respawn timer. Haha, oh wow. Skinning was stealth nerfed to about 25% of it's original value.

I would level inscription, but it's tied to level, which is dumb. So, I've just been selling felslate for 450 minimum a stack of 20, usually 800. Milling herbs for Sallow pigment and selling those for 450 minimum EACH. I've made like... 15,000 in two days and I'm not even trying. I'm going to continue to get in while the getting is good. I'm also starting to prospect all the leystone I get for gems and just sell to uncuts for hundreds of gold.

Sure, if I leveled the profs, I could make even MORE money, but as I said: they're all gated behind player level which is fucking stupid. This economy is borked at a level I've never seen before.

I've dropped engineering on my DH and just went mining/Herbalism. And I'd rather make money than do another Blacksmithing quest that requires tons of mats I could make bank on. There are still some glyphs I really want, but cosmetic stuff will come, so that's not a big deal.

Paladin level 103 Class quest requires access to a 105 dungeon.....

Bodyguard abilities are broke as Hell in PvP BTW. I've read the stuns (some upwards of 15 seconds) work 100% in PvP. 15 seconds is a life-time in a fight. The Rogue supposedly also has a follower who can drop your HP to 10%. The Invasion vendors are back, so if you're below 109, I recommend stocking up on bandages and other goodies. I bought a bunch of felbats and plan to sit on them for a few months.

[Broomstick]

Yeah, I bought felbats, too.

But, unlike you, I'm still having fun.

[TheFeniX]

Fun's easy to find. Vengeance is a blast. You always have a button to hit and it isn't just filler, unlike Prot Warriors and Devastate. Also fun to just explore since few people want to pick a fight. Though I hear Warlocks are having it rough: they are popular ganking targets. The problem is viability in leveling with a lot of DPS classes. Frost DK just takes way to much damage, has weak Single-target damage, and many dead spots. Fury War is fun, but you're in the same type of boat. Sure, You have loads of AOE DPS, but mobs rail you and it's a fight to the finish constantly. Or you can just go Prot with either and burn down whole zones at a time. And I think this is part of the problem. To make mobs semi-annoying for tank and healer specs, they have to be beefy and hit hard. This sucks for DPS.

What sucks for me is I spend so much time in Blood when I REALLY want the Sindragoas ability for my Frost weapon. So, my blood weapon is pretty much unleveled. Either way, he's really just a Facebook mission/Prospecting bot.

Just sold an uncut red gem (rare) on the AH for 5700 gold. Ridiculous. I have more ready to sell.

Koltira shows back up in the DK class campaign. Sylvy had him locked in a cage (a standing room only cage) since Cata. No trial, all attempts by the Ebon Blade to negotiate shut down. Got to roll with my boy Thassarian (loved him in LK) to bust him out. I mean, we should totally be at war with Undershitty, but whatever: the Ebon Blade actually puts Azeroth first while the Forsaken continue to be worthless husks of rotten meat.

I try to back off my complete distaste for the Forsaken faction as a whole, but Blizzard just keeps reminding me how shitty they really are.

[Lord Revan]

Demon Hunters are intresting class since on paper it seems like you'd get bored in hours due to how simple the base rotation is but I spent most of my time in Beta leveling my DH and spent most of the pre-expansion event playing my DH as well and the only reason I didn't play vengence more often is my general distaste for pug tanking (in more cases then not you're fighting idiots in your own group more often the the mobs when tanking or healing pugs).