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Soontir C'boath wrote:I wonder if that X-Wing was a spare or if Luke booted someone else off the pilot roster. Anyway, given how people whine how SW ships fly like they are in atmosphere, seems Luke's time in a Skyhopper was good enough for Red Leader.

With SW's insane construction speed, I think building an X-Wing isn't a big challenge. It's finding good pilots that is the bigger challenge for the Rebels.

evillejedi wrote:I would be interested in seeing an Imperial sided story where the Order is basically melting down post Endor/whatever happens at Jakku. Various factions consolidating power on fortress worlds and essentially a gigantic mess of imperial military hardware being destroyed spectacularly in orbit and on the ground as the various eccentric personalities of the Empire fight over who has the largest hat. Shoot it like a war documentary with interviews of survivors and archival footage.
I didn't like Clone Emperor in Dark Empire, but I sure enjoyed the setup of the warmachine of the empire collapsing in on itself and taking a good chunk of the galaxy with it.

I like the idea that the Empire fell apart pretty quickly after Endor, rather than the EU's drawn-out civil war. Which seems to be somewhat what the new continuity went with, since I seem to recall reading that Jakku, the last big stand of the Imperial fleet, is but a year after Endor. It fits better with the optimistic ending of RotJ, and one gets the sense that the Empire was not particularly popular/stable, that it was being held together by the threat of massive retaliation against disobedience and when that was gone... poof, so was the Empire.

That said... a power structure that big and complex does not collapse without great chaos. But rather than just different Imperial warlords fighting it out, I'd have it more as a general free for all. Imperial holdouts deciding to fight to the death, either out of fanatical devotion to the Empire/Palpatine or fear of what will happen to them when they lose. Other Imperials trying to abscond with whatever wealth they can and go into hiding before the NR or some other enemy catches them, or going pirate. Others defecting to the NR. Worlds joining the NR. Worlds trying to go independent, even carve out their own regional power. Crime running rampant in the collapse of central government. With a major crime war on the side over who takes over the recently deceased Jabba's holdings.

Not sure how closely this squares with the new EU. I don't know much about the books and such, generally, beyond what I see on sites like this. But that's how I might have done it.

For a story in that period... it might be interesting to see the perspective of some ordinary rank and file troops, kids who were either conscripted or volunteered after spending their whole lives being told about Imperial glory and the Empire bringing order to the galaxy, only to find themselves caught up in the middle of these huge events they don't fully comprehend as the world as they know it falls apart around them.

Sacrificing an SSD in a flamboyant and overly convenient "final battle" sounds exactly like the thing Thrawn would orchestrate to hide a strategic withdraw of much larger and flexible force. Put all of the ambitious loyal asshats on the SSD and its escorts and let the New Republic take significant losses trying to take them down. The NR claims victory and the Imperial Remnant can safely sign a treaty to hold important manufacturing and supply worlds while the bulk of the Imperial fleet in hiding can get resupplied and rebuilt in the deep core and unknown regions. Any competent loyalists that actually understood the doctrine he supported would make up the command structure of the fleet.

Yeah, I can see Thrawn making that call if the circumstances called for/permitted it. He's generally not petty or gratuitously cruel, as I recall, but surely ruthless enough to sacrifice ships and men for a large enough gain. And he was a master of misdirection and misinformation.

The problem is that this assumes he can dupe both his own commanders and the Rebellion/New Republic effectively over something as big as absconding with a major fleet of capital ship. The galaxy is big enough that a small ship, or even an ISD, or even a squadron of ISDs could probably disappear for a while without too much fuss. But a major fleet, significantly greater in power than an SSD and its escorts? I'm not sure I buy that. Not unless Imperial and NR intelligence is woefully incompetent.

That and if whatever's left of the Empire were that strong, the NR probably wouldn't be around any more, as they seem pitifully weak in TFA.

evillejedi wrote:Sacrificing an SSD in a flamboyant and overly convenient "final battle" sounds exactly like the thing Thrawn would orchestrate to hide a strategic withdraw of much larger and flexible force. Put all of the ambitious loyal asshats on the SSD and its escorts and let the New Republic take significant losses trying to take them down. The NR claims victory and the Imperial Remnant can safely sign a treaty to hold important manufacturing and supply worlds while the bulk of the Imperial fleet in hiding can get resupplied and rebuilt in the deep core and unknown regions. Any competent loyalists that actually understood the doctrine he supported would make up the command structure of the fleet.

I'm glad my theory wasn't totally lost on everyone. Even in the old EU, there were still SSDs in existence many years after Endor and Thrawn never bothered to assume command of one for his own use. He seemed far more interested in having a fleet of smaller ships.

ray245 wrote:

Soontir C'boath wrote:I wonder if that X-Wing was a spare or if Luke booted someone else off the pilot roster. Anyway, given how people whine how SW ships fly like they are in atmosphere, seems Luke's time in a Skyhopper was good enough for Red Leader.

With SW's insane construction speed, I think building an X-Wing isn't a big challenge. It's finding good pilots that is the bigger challenge for the Rebels.

Star Wars ships seem to be fairly easy to learn to fly. How many times do we see someone hope in an unfamiliar ship and fly it like a pro?

Especially with one of their pilots backing Luke, and the fact that he'd just helped rescue a VIP off the fucking Death Star. Hell, Leia might have put in a good word for him.

The Romulan Republic wrote:

ray245 wrote:

Soontir C'boath wrote:I wonder if that X-Wing was a spare or if Luke booted someone else off the pilot roster. Anyway, given how people whine how SW ships fly like they are in atmosphere, seems Luke's time in a Skyhopper was good enough for Red Leader.

With SW's insane construction speed, I think building an X-Wing isn't a big challenge. It's finding good pilots that is the bigger challenge for the Rebels.

Star Wars ships seem to be fairly easy to learn to fly. How many times do we see someone hope in an unfamiliar ship and fly it like a pro?

Especially with one of their pilots backing Luke, and the fact that he'd just helped rescue a VIP off the fucking Death Star. Hell, Leia might have put in a good word for him.

Consider the difficulty in learning to drive a stick shift vs automatic - now imagine if you got into a fighter plane, where it significantly reduced or eliminated the g-forces your experienced, and you had a co-pilot (astromech) that could micro-manage all the ship's subsystems for you.

Going back to some EU sources, Luke had a lot of experience flying his T-16, which is another Incom craft, whose controls are very similar to an X-Wing's, thus explaining his proficiency.

ray245 wrote:

Soontir C'boath wrote:I wonder if that X-Wing was a spare or if Luke booted someone else off the pilot roster. Anyway, given how people whine how SW ships fly like they are in atmosphere, seems Luke's time in a Skyhopper was good enough for Red Leader.

With SW's insane construction speed, I think building an X-Wing isn't a big challenge. It's finding good pilots that is the bigger challenge for the Rebels.

Nowhere did I ever talk about X-Wing construction times. Anyway, the point I was making is that Biggs and Red Leader apparently were willing to trust someone with one of their fighters who had at best flown an atmospheric craft and my quip about spaceships maneuvering as if they're in atmosphere as anti-SWers are not want of saying could very well just mean they've designed them in such a way to reduce such a need for extra training.

Plus, the Skyhopper apparently is in line with canon to have similar controls as the X-Wing if Wookiepedia is still anything to go by.

Having the fighters but not the pilots would seem like a logical explanation as to why someone like Luke would end up in the strike force against the Death Star and even in real life building planes tends to be easier then getting pilots for them.

It doesn't seem that logical that they would boot a veteran pilot out of the roster for someone who is in essense unproven however if there was a pilot shortage it would make sense for them to take every pilot that's even somewhat qualified.

Lord Revan wrote:Having the fighters but not the pilots would seem like a logical explanation as to why someone like Luke would end up in the strike force against the Death Star and even in real life building planes tends to be easier then getting pilots for them.

It doesn't seem that logical that they would boot a veteran pilot out of the roster for someone who is in essense unproven however if there was a pilot shortage it would make sense for them to take every pilot that's even somewhat qualified.

Also, the plan seemed to be to use the bombers (Y-Wings) for the actual mission, the X-Wings were basically security/a defense screen for them... so the X-Wings may have actually been disposable, in a sense.

"It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire.

During the battle, Rebel spies managed to steal secret plans to the Empire's ultimate weapon, the DEATH STAR, an armored space station with enough power to destroy an entire planet.

It's possible that they lost a lot of pilots in the battle that got them the plans but had extra ships, or spare ships. Putting a warm body in a ship can be better than a ship left at base during a huge battle.

Indeed. Taking out the Death Star was pretty much do or die for the Rebellion. Why would they leave a single ship on the ground? Even if Luke got killed in five seconds, that's five seconds someone's shooting at him instead of one of the more experienced pilots who might be able to make the kill.

It's likely that the empire is limiting the recruitment possibilities that rebels have specialists like pilots as much as possible, so while I'm pretty certain that Rebel Alliance would want nothing but fully trained combat pilots there's most likely not enough of those avaible for them to recruit so rebels are forced to use people like Luke to fill in the ranks simply because there's no other option for them.

On the issue of X-wing numbers, I would agree that it is likely that they loose pilots easier than X-wings. In WW2 that occasionally happened with tank crews, that the vehicle could be salvaged even if the crew was lost.

Galvatron wrote:

evillejedi wrote:Sacrificing an SSD in a flamboyant and overly convenient "final battle" sounds exactly like the thing Thrawn would orchestrate to hide a strategic withdraw of much larger and flexible force. Put all of the ambitious loyal asshats on the SSD and its escorts and let the New Republic take significant losses trying to take them down. The NR claims victory and the Imperial Remnant can safely sign a treaty to hold important manufacturing and supply worlds while the bulk of the Imperial fleet in hiding can get resupplied and rebuilt in the deep core and unknown regions. Any competent loyalists that actually understood the doctrine he supported would make up the command structure of the fleet.

I'm glad my theory wasn't totally lost on everyone. Even in the old EU, there were still SSDs in existence many years after Endor and Thrawn never bothered to assume command of one for his own use. He seemed far more interested in having a fleet of smaller ships.

Out of universe, I think Zahn did that deliberately, to avoid either side having ships that were all that powerful. It was a way of allowing clever tactics to rule over firepower.

It is an interesting concept however. Though one I doubt we will ever see.

It's irrelevant. The SSD Ravager did wind up under Grand Moff Randd's command and the remnants of the Imperial fleet did jump to the Unknown Regions after the Empire signed the Galactic Concordance. These things are canon. I didn't make them up.

The only question is: what became of Admiral Sloane and the mysterious, unidentified Thrawn-like fleet admiral? And why did he relinquish command of the Empire's last SSD to a buffoon like Randd? All I did was present a scenario that I thought was plausible enough to explain these mysteries.

Galvatron wrote:It's irrelevant. The SSD Ravager did wind up under Grand Moff Randd's command and the remnants of the Imperial fleet did jump to the Unknown Regions after the Empire signed the Galactic Concordance. These things are canon. I didn't make them up.

The only question is: what became of Admiral Sloane and the mysterious, unidentified Thrawn-like fleet admiral? And why did he relinquish command of the Empire's last SSD to a buffoon like Randd? All I did was present a scenario that I thought was plausible enough to explain these mysteries.

Stil not buying it, for the reasons The Romulan Republic stated, plus Thrawn is extremely reluctant to sacrifice a few dozen of men.

I will say one thing. Just *once* I'd like to see Stormtrooper armour not completely suck. Especially helmets. The entire point of them is that shitty attacks don't hurt the wearer.

Thanas wrote:

Galvatron wrote:It's irrelevant. The SSD Ravager did wind up under Grand Moff Randd's command and the remnants of the Imperial fleet did jump to the Unknown Regions after the Empire signed the Galactic Concordance. These things are canon. I didn't make them up.

The only question is: what became of Admiral Sloane and the mysterious, unidentified Thrawn-like fleet admiral? And why did he relinquish command of the Empire's last SSD to a buffoon like Randd? All I did was present a scenario that I thought was plausible enough to explain these mysteries.

Stil not buying it, for the reasons The Romulan Republic stated, plus Thrawn is extremely reluctant to sacrifice a few dozen of men.

Okay, then what is your theory as to how and why these things happened? You and I can't ever seem to agree on the color of the sky, so this should be interesting.

It is pretty easy, both the "Fleet Admiral" and Sloan got whacked by the Grand Moff who took command of the ship, or the Grand Moff simply had a higher rank and the Fleet Admiral and Sloane fought at Jakku (and lost). I also do not agree that he was Thrawn-like, so I have no reason to assume he has any of Thrawn's abilities.

I see.

So your theory is that Admiral Rae Sloane, a prominent new character whose arc spans multiple novels, was simply "whacked" and we never heard about it.

Moreover, Thrawn or not, the mysterious unidentified fleet admiral who faked his own death and then manipulated both Sloane and the events on Akiva simply to determine if she was worthy to join him was also killed (or sidelined by Grand Moff Loser).

This scenario makes more sense to you than mine?

No matter what happened at Jakku, I highly doubt the mystery Fleet Admiral is Thrawn, since according to the TFA Visual Dictionary, those Imperial forces jumping into the Unknown Regions are what became the First Order and as others have said that doesn't sound very Thrawn-like.

Thanas wrote: Stil not buying it, for the reasons The Romulan Republic stated, plus Thrawn is extremely reluctant to sacrifice a few dozen of men.

Bear in mind that Legends era Thrawn was dealing with a different context than post-current-canon-Endor Thrawn would be, one that's just seen the rapid progress of the Rebellion to a New Republic. He had smaller numbers (fuck you minimalism), less resources and had to deploy his Magnificent Bastard powers all the more. A Thrawn in the new canon, on the other hand, might still have enough forces that he would feel he could sacrifice more. We simply don't really know enough about the new canon post-Endor to say with assurance what happens, apart from what little we have been told already. I don't put it past Pablo Hidalgo to let some new author tweak Thrawn to fit the new setting better.

I don't particular care if he's Thrawn or not, but this is a direct quote from that character:

"This is how it must be. The Empire became this...ugly, inelegant machine. Crude and inefficient. We needed to be broken into pieces. We needed to get rid of those who want to see that old machine churning ineluctably forward. It's time for something better. Something new. An Empire worthy of the galaxy it will rule."

Whether he is or isn't Thrawn, I'd say he made his reasons crystal clear and that sacrificing an SSD would be well within character for him.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:No matter what happened at Jakku, I highly doubt the mystery Fleet Admiral is Thrawn, since according to the TFA Visual Dictionary, those Imperial forces jumping into the Unknown Regions are what became the First Order and as others have said that doesn't sound very Thrawn-like.

Doesn't sound Thrawn-like? Did you not read the books in which it was revealed that Thrawn did exactly that? In the old EU, it was called the Empire of the Hand.

Yes I did read those. And while I can see him setting up an Empire of the Hand expy, I don't see him willingly being involved with the First Order since it seems to embody everything Thrawn didn't like about the Empire of old.

What is it about the First Order that you believe Thrawn wouldn't like? I mean, we're talking about a man who faithfully continued to serve the Empire despite all of the atrocities it committed.

The existence of Starkiller Base springs to mind (he didn't strike me as being fond of superweapons), it being led by Force-users, possibly the Stormtroopers indoctrinated since birth part (clones were much easier).

I don't recall Thrawn frowning upon any of those things.