Anakin vs. Ranma

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lgot
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Post by lgot »

Yogi:
Technically, defense IS a significant part in being a skilled fighter, but I digress . . .
Very well then, show that it decreases his defense.
Kunou attacked a unknow enemy everytime, like a maniac. He did not used any defense. He did not kept any defense because his reckless attacking. That left him full of openings that Ranma could use easily.
You have answered nothing.
He have reflexes to cope with bolts, which are, my opinion, faster than human. (I never said he could do with anything fast, so the No Limits Falacy does not apply here and pretty much, I care little for petty little namings of falacies, as it is just style over substance). A Blaster is 3, at beast. times faster than any human, that is obvious, which is what Ranma moves. That shows Anakin reflexes to defend himself- keep the area of threat of his saber - against Ranma intrusion.
ROFL!!!
ROFL ? I wonder since his fighting instincts turned to be "WILLPOWER".
Bokken broken on his arm, the same one that slashes through concrete with ease.
Does the Falacy of No limit means something to you ?
Try again, that just show that then, the hit of broken was not enough to slash concrete.
Mind Trick: See aforementioned "Room full of cats" feat
not only is extreme arguable your use of "willpower" but also that does not prove anything.
He actually lost control of himself because that fear and that is his weakness. And having a fear and being able to control it, does not make you imune to force manipulation and mind tricks. you still have to show evideces to support your claim that Ranma can resist that.


And please , do not forget to quote the part that I agreed that a a HSH made by Ranma would work. Consequence must not have caught that I did not argue (or even argued) about that and thinks i do it...
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Post by Yogi »

lgot wrote:Kunou attacked a unknow enemy everytime, like a maniac. He did not used any defense. He did not kept any defense because his reckless attacking. That left him full of openings that Ranma could use easily.
More unsubstanciated words. Kuno attacked Ranma (for all the wrong reasons) which means Kuno has no defense. Leap in logic.
lgot wrote:He have reflexes to cope with bolts, which are, my opinion, faster than human. (I never said he could do with anything fast, so the No Limits Falacy does not apply here and pretty much, I care little for petty little namings of falacies, as it is just style over substance). A Blaster is 3, at beast. times faster than any human, that is obvious, which is what Ranma moves. That shows Anakin reflexes to defend himself- keep the area of threat of his saber - against Ranma intrusion.
And you have yet to prove why Ranma caps out at a blaster bolt, when he has moved so fast that people never even SEE him move.
lgot wrote:ROFL ? I wonder since his fighting instincts turned to be "WILLPOWER".
I honestly have NO idea what you are trying to say here.
lgot wrote:Does the Falacy of No limit means something to you ?
Try again, that just show that then, the hit of broken was not enough to slash concrete.
The air pressure of the bokken alone was able to shatter a concrete statue. The sword has sliced through brick walls before. Lightsabers need to slowly saw through blast doors.
lgot wrote:not only is extreme arguable your use of "willpower" but also that does not prove anything.
He actually lost control of himself because that fear and that is his weakness. And having a fear and being able to control it, does not make you imune to force manipulation and mind tricks. you still have to show evideces to support your claim that Ranma can resist that.
Mind Trick is not a freaking Charm Person or Suggestion spell. All it needs is a strong will to defeat, and Ranma has faced his worst fear and NOT lost control.
lgot wrote:And please , do not forget to quote the part that I agreed that a a HSH made by Ranma would work. Consequence must not have caught that I did not argue (or even argued) about that and thinks i do it...
Sure thing!
lgot wrote:Lets suppose Ranma can make the "dark side" of Anakin go to the surface to use it...imagine the hurricane of that...
Though if you agree that it would work . . . then why the hell am I still here?

OK. Concession accepted. I won't be posting here any more.
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The Drunkard Kid
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Post by The Drunkard Kid »

Alrighty then...

Ranma's running speed speed: He's fast enough to casually outrun motorcycles/scooters in a race in optimal conditions (Volume 7), in his slower girl form (he loses far more strength than he does weight in his girl form; that, and his fights with Tarou seem to suggest that its actually slower than his male form in every way) while dodging Shampoo's attacks like they were nothing, and balancing a bowl of Ramen in a box, and not spill a drop. Before all his in-series speed training he was fast enough to chase Cologne right up a telephone pole in Volume 5 (running, not climbing; His entire body remained perpendicular to the pole the entire way up), and he later did the same thing in his girl form several volumes later (Tsubasa's intro; can't remember the volume number). In volume two, he dodges so fast that Ryouga (a guy who can run and punch holes in a wall so fast that he's finished about 10 holes covering about 20-40 or so feet before a pebble from the first hole can finish moving more than an inch from where it was ripped off during the first punch, and who's punches are so fast that they can cut skin from an inch away and can slash silk with the air pressure of a freakin' UMBRELLA) accidentally punches right through his after image.

Yeah, Mint is probably faster than him. Since that guy isn't all human and was capable of running straight up a nigh perpendicular MOUNTAINSIDE with no apparent strain, I wouldn't really hold it against him. Ranma got hit with Kuno's slash, yeah. What you forgot to mention though, was that Ranma was a) distracted, and b) in mid air when that happened. And that this direct hit which goes right through stone as if it wasn't even there only gave a painful superficial cut to Ranma, and that he ignored it for the rest of the fight. For the Strikestrikestrike maneuver which he used a couple of pages later, Ranma was again in mid air, but this time he was paying attention and managed to dodge every single strike, though he was slow enough that his shirt got cut up on the edges. Then Ranma lands, dodges a slash made at him while he was distracted, and landed about 7 shots so fast that even Akane (a low level superhuman martial artist) didn't know what happened until she flipped Kuno over. In volume 7 though, after the anti-Bakusai Tenketsu training, Ranma casually dodges every single slash Kuno made, while balancing a nearly full bowl of ramen in his hand and practically juggled the thing it was so easy. In the volume where Kunou Kochou was introduced, Ranma, while hanging upside down and maneuvering his body by means of the toes of one foot tugging the rope, managed to dodge every strike while between an all out Kuno and Kuno Kochou without even losing a single hair.

Anakin can block blaster fire because he knows where the blaster is being aimed at before the guy finishes pulling the trigger and can position it fast enough that they won't be able to adjust their aim. Ranma's reflex speed is a lot faster than even Han Solo's, and that guy nearly got a certain Sith Lord in Episode V, after at least 20 years of Sith experience behind him, IIRC... Anakin, especially Padawan Anakin, isn't gonna get close to Ranma, while Ranma can just start drawing on the future Vader's face if he wanted to.

Dodging: Igot, you say that Ranma can't win the fight just by dodging. Why? IIRC, Anakin was breathing heavily just from his duel with Dooku, before he lost his hand. Ranma, pre-manga, swam to China, which is at least 500 miles. By volume 17, he was able to keep up his Amaguriken for an entire fight, in his girl form, despite having starved and dehydrated himself for several days (during the course of which, she was in almost constant high intensity speed training), to the point where her hips were smaller than her waist was at the start of the training. Even w/o a lightsabre, Ranma can just stick his hands in his pockets and wait for Anakin to fall to the ground and start coughing blood. Orrrr, he could do what he does to Kuno every single time, and simply dodge into Anakin's reach and simply pummel him into the ground before he can get his blade back into a useful range. Or do what he did to Ryouga in their first major duel and Kodachi/Mousse in later duels. Anakin is gonna swing, then he's gonna feel Ranma punching him from behind (or tapping his sleep spot, which Ranma thinks he knows after seeing Happy do it once) while Anakin is seeing his lightsabre pass right through the afterimage.

Heck, why bother? One base level Shishi Hokodan (which is an exact equal to Ranma's preferred Mouko Takabisha) has enough momentum to toss a charging Ranma straight across an entire lot and through the wall at the other end. And Ranma can toss out two of them simultaneously. Considering that would have to at least neutralize Ranma's own momentum (and remember, this is the kid that can outrun delivery vehicles), no one ever showed a Force Shove anywhere near equal to that. Force TK, yeah, but that requires a lot more focus than a Force Shove. Even if Anakin blocks it, I have no doubt in my mind that he'd either go flying, or his Lightsaber would bisect him when *it* goes flying.

Will Power: Yeah, Ranma has a few psychological weak spots. Food, honor, hurting the emotions of girls, pride, cats, and so on and so forth. Psychological weak spots != weak will. Ranma's faced each of his weak spots, and many other situations which would have broken most people. He's Ranma's learned to be suspicious of food (Akane's regular looking food, Kodachi's feasts, etc...). Ranma's shown the ability to step aside if he thinks Akane wants someone else. The cat example that Yogi mentioned. Trying his hardest to reveal his curse to Nodoka, despite knowing of the Sepukku contract. Heck, any normal person would have gone on a homocidal rampage through Nerima by the middle of volume 8.

As for the cat fear being an indication of his weak will, remember that it was done to him when he was 10 years old. I'd like to see you toss a ten year old Anakin Skywalker into that situation sans Force and see what happens. Actually, no; toss in a 10 year old Yoda, since Anakin is already a lot weaker of will than Ranma. In fact, I'd like to see a Marine that can undergo almost any of the training methods used by Ranma in the series and still be able to stop screaming by the end of any of the trials.

What do I mean about Anakin's weaknesses? Yeah, Ranma's got a few psychological weakspots, but Anakin has at least as many, and they're far less controlled than Ranma's. Anakin's even more arrogant than Ranma, he's even more wishy-washy around a love interest, and he has an inner psychopath that Vader-to-be released on a bunch of women and children.

And for specific instances of Ranma using willpower to overcome mental effects, he's forced himself to break out of the parylization effect of Happosai's battle aura with sheer force of will, and many volumes later, he managed to break out of Lukkosai's (Happosai's good friend and former sparring partner) similar technique without any significant effort. Anakin ain't doing any Jedi Mind Tricks on this Saotome. As for invisibility, Manga Ranma can actually do that with the Umisenken, though he did admittedly seal that school of techniques. Heck, all the evidence seems to suggest that if you're not as skilled as Ranma cerca the Herb duel, you can't even see most ki-techniques unless they're meant to be seen (Happy's giant battle aura) or uber-powerful (Shishi Hokodan). Most martial artists can see regular battle auras, but no non-MA ever displayed even that much.

Ranma w/ a Lightsabre: Don't bother giving him the half hour, since he doesn't need it. As the battle against Cologne on the beach in Volume 6 showed, Ranma is already pretty skilled with a sword, preferring what seems to be a Chinese style from the stance. He's definitely faster and more skilled with it than Anakin has ever shown with his preferred weapon, and at his strength level the mass difference between a lightsabre and a heavyweight boxer is negligible enough that he won't really need to adjust to it.




SPOILER FOR THE END OF RANMA 1/2





Hiryuu Shoten Ha: Akane tried to help Ranma learn it by setting herself on fire. Ranma used the Hiryuu Gyouten Ha *after* Saffron died by using the excess heat left behind from the fight. Ranma has thrown the Hiryuu Shoten Ha and its variations without walking the spiral, and on at least 4 (against Herb, Happosai/Lukkosai, Soun/Genma, and 3 times around the Saffron battle) occassions, without maintaining his own calm or leading his opponent in the spiral. Heck, in 2 (Happosai/Lukkosai, Soun/Genma) of those situations, Ranma was far more pissed off than his opponents. IIRC, Ranma's used the Hiryuu Shoten Ha w/o the spiral a lot more times than he's actually used it *with* the spiral.

If he wanted to be utterly mean, Ranma just tosses a spiral of cold ki at the lightsabre (vs. Herb, Saffron), then releases a HSH. If he wanted to be evil, he can watch Anakin's confused expression as the lightsabre blinks out, then his shocked horror as Ranma yells out "Hiryuu Shoten Ha Kaiteiban: HIRYUU KORIN DAN!", then punches Anakin clear into another time zone.






END SPOILER
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Post by lgot »

More unsubstanciated words. Kuno attacked Ranma (for all the wrong reasons) which means Kuno has no defense. Leap in logic.
No, Description of the fight. Kunou assume a attacking position. Ranma dodge, Even so, he does again, Ranma dodge, and even when Ranma come close, Kunou attacks. He never took any instance to defend himself, that is pretty much all.
And you have yet to prove why Ranma caps out at a blaster bolt, when he has moved so fast that people never even SEE him move.
People do not see Ranma punching. Ranma movement can be see and followed.
I honestly have NO idea what you are trying to say here.
I have no idea why you use willpower here...
The air pressure of the bokken alone was able to shatter a concrete statue. The sword has sliced through brick walls before. Lightsabers need to slowly saw through blast doors.
So ? Not all time that bokken used it was used with Kunou's skill to do such damage.
not only you just showed that Ranma can break wood as you still failed to provide any evidence that he would resist lightsaber when even cat can scratch him.
Mind Trick is not a freaking Charm Person or Suggestion spell. All it needs is a strong will to defeat, and Ranma has faced his worst fear and NOT lost control.
A rare ocasion, Usually he lost his control and acts like a cat. You still failed to prove that Ranma could resist those mind tricks if he is usually mental dominated by magic, techniques during all the series.
Though if you agree that it would work . . . then why the hell am I still here?
Because like everyone else we agree about one thing and disagree about other ?
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Post by The Drunkard Kid »

lgot wrote:
And you have yet to prove why Ranma caps out at a blaster bolt, when he has moved so fast that people never even SEE him move.
People do not see Ranma punching. Ranma movement can be see and followed.

Yet Genma, who Ranma casually dances around, has pulled off the "I move so fast that no one can see me move" trick. Not to mention the times he's dodged Kuno's sword trick which makes it appear to be in multiple places at once; In the manga, this is often drawn as Ranma leaving afterimages. Same with the first major duel with Ryouga, his first meeting with Kodachi, his first real duel with Mousse, etc, etc...

Heck, Shampoo was fast enough to run down, and outrun a motorized vehicle while balancing a bowl of Chow Mein and trying to tag Ranma-chan, who in turn was casually dodging Shampoo like she wasn't even there. In fact, they managed to pass the end point of the race, go down several blocks, have a small showdown, get splashed, and then run back to the end before Akane (who managed to outrun those same vehicles on a skateboard) could finish the race from the point where they started their little game of tag.

Mind Trick is not a freaking Charm Person or Suggestion spell. All it needs is a strong will to defeat, and Ranma has faced his worst fear and NOT lost control.
A rare ocasion, Usually he lost his control and acts like a cat.

That's because it's a specific, ground in weakness. And technically, he only goes into it 3 times, one of which was on purpose. Usually, he runs and screams cause there's no pressing need to hide it anymore as there was in that one instant.

You still failed to prove that Ranma could resist those mind tricks if he is usually mental dominated by magic, techniques during all the series.
The funny thing about Ranma 1/2 magic, is that it apparently *can't* be resisted by will power. It's more like a physiological effect than a psychological one. No matter how strong willed a person is, if they get trapped under the love umbrella (Nabiki, for example), they will fall in love with the person sharing it. If they swallow a life-long love pill, they'll fall in love with the first being of the opposite gender they see. It's like saying that Ranma would be weak of will for getting drunk when Kuno shoved a bottle of sake down his throat, or when Shampoo kept dunking his head in that tub of sake.

As for him resisting actual mental effects, see my earlier post. As of the end of the manga, Ranma didn't even seem to strain to break a non-magical mental effect. Also, considering the living hell that is his regular training methods (he willingly starved and dehydrated himself for days-weeks in order to learn the Foie Gras technique, for example, without being forced into it by anyone else), I'd say that his willpower is self-evident.
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Post by lgot »

The Drunkard Kid:
Ranma's running speed speed:
Here, I will post to your from where I assume Ranma’s body movement if about 3,4 times of the best human. You look and do your analyze if that is acceptable or not.
This is Chris Rijk’s calculations, I first saw it in a old Debate in one Ranma Mailing List, long ago. Even if not everyone agreed , there was not much successful attempts to put down him and he is a extremely knowledge source for Ranma (and about anything else Manga- related) .

“Ranma is never actually seen to be running especially fast, but I'll use some standard Newton equations to work out how fast he's moving while jumping along at high speed. When he's jumping along, if he's taking off at 45 degree angles, then his horizontal speed will equal his vertical speed. Since vertical acceleration (is a constant (ie g), his speed can be worked out from his height above the ground. Say he jumps about 20m high, then (from earlier equation) his vertical speed will be sqrt(20*10*2)=20m/s, and his actual speed sqrt(20² *2)=28m/s. This is about 3x faster than the fastest runner, and he can keep this up for quite a distance - a couple of 100m doesn't even tire him.”

Its based on this move speed that I am doing all other affirmations.
Ranma got hit with Kuno's slash, yeah. What you forgot to mention though,
You are doing the same failure of everyone, I am not arguing about Ranma skill to dodge, but that he can be hurt by the bokken to deny the arguments that he would not be hurt by the lightsaber.
Anakin can block blaster fire because he knows where the blaster is being aimed at before the guy finishes pulling the trigger and can position it fast enough that they won't be able to adjust their aim.
Anakin can block the blaster because he can move his saber fast enough to hit something at that speed. If Ranma hit at that speed, it is possible for Anakin to block him as well.
Dodging: Igot, you say that Ranma can't win the fight just by dodging.
Because you have to attack. Anakin would not attack him like crazy, because it would be useless, as Ranma would dodge him and that would cause an opening. Ranma would have, as usual, the upper hand and attack first. Anakin would have to defend his area and strike when Ranma goes inside there- to make either Ranma dodge away and therefore leave the area or hit and “won”. That is the best possible tatics against someone faster than you.
Will Power: Yeah, Ranma has a few psychological weak spots. Food, honor, hurting the emotions of girls, pride, cats, and so on and so forth. Psychological weak spots != weak will.
I am glad you think that. I would not say weak will, but susceptible will. That is all that is needed.
As for the cat fear being an indication of his weak will, remember that it was done to him when he was 10 years old. I'd like to see you toss a ten year old Anakin Skywalker into that situation sans Force and see what happens.
Keep in mind that they used the cat fear as indication of strong will, when it is not exactly true.
Plus, you do not need to do or you forget that Anakin’s life was not heaven as well ?
Actually, no; toss in a 10 year old Yoda, since Anakin is already a lot weaker of will than Ranma
That is very doubtful. Anakin is near a Jedi, His will is superior than most living beings, that is a part of being Jedi and not a part of Anything Goes Martial Arts.
What do I mean about Anakin's weaknesses?
I totally agree with you. They are actually pretty similar (a rare thing in those versus scenarios). But there is a difference between both. Anakin is the one training to be Jedi and use that. Ranma don’t. It is a weakness that Ranma have not much how to take advantage.
And for specific instances of Ranma using willpower to overcome mental effects,
You mean, Specific Instances that a mind trick worked and later Ranma overcome ?
Sorry, but they still do not show that jedi mind tricks would not work with him at all. He might even avoid them later, but later would be too late.
Ranma w/ a Lightsabre: Don't bother giving him the half hour, since he doesn't need it.
Now you are not being logical. Ranma can use weapons well. But one things is being good enough to hold his weapon, other thing is winning against a Foe that is extremely good with that and is also a super-human. The great difference of technique would work here.
That's because it's a specific, ground in weakness. And technically, he only goes into it 3 times, one of which was on purpose. Usually, he runs and screams cause there's no pressing need to hide it anymore as there was in that one instant.
It still there, he still lost control. It is not a feat of great willpower of Ranma, no way, like it was claimed.
It's like saying that Ranma would be weak of will for getting drunk when Kuno shoved a bottle of sake down his throat, or when Shampoo kept dunking his head in that tub of sake.
They only show that Ranma’s mind can lost control. Plus, I am not the one who must give evidence, others must show that he will be imunne to the force in the way Jabba is.
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Post by generator_g1 »

A little correction on that love umbrella...Nabiki doesn't love Kuno...she loves Kuno's money :)

I wonder how would Anakin stand up against the effects of the Fishing Rod of Love?
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Post by The Drunkard Kid »

generator_g1 wrote:A little correction on that love umbrella...Nabiki doesn't love Kuno...she loves Kuno's money :)

I wonder how would Anakin stand up against the effects of the Fishing Rod of Love?
Nope. Remember, she loved him so much that she gave him a discount for her heart. :)
"What's that smear on the wall, Mommy?"
"That used to be Spider-Man, honey."
"What killed him?"
"A zipper. Some said it was velcro, but the Daily Bugle said it was a zipper, and I believe the Bugle."
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Post by generator_g1 »

The Drunkard Kid wrote:
generator_g1 wrote:A little correction on that love umbrella...Nabiki doesn't love Kuno...she loves Kuno's money :)

I wonder how would Anakin stand up against the effects of the Fishing Rod of Love?
Nope. Remember, she loved him so much that she gave him a discount for her heart. :)
I had the manga for the love umbrella...

- Kuno and Nabiki under the umbrella
- Shocked Furinken students around them
- Nabiki reaches into Kuno's shirt, pulls out his wallet
- We see Nabiki doing the glittery eyes lovey dovey thing together with a something amount yen bill.

Where did Nabiki say that heart discount? :)
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Post by SAMAS »

lgot wrote:The Drunkard Kid:
Ranma's running speed speed:
Here, I will post to your from where I assume Ranma’s body movement if about 3,4 times of the best human. You look and do your analyze if that is acceptable or not.
This is Chris Rijk’s calculations, I first saw it in a old Debate in one Ranma Mailing List, long ago. Even if not everyone agreed , there was not much successful attempts to put down him and he is a extremely knowledge source for Ranma (and about anything else Manga- related) .

“Ranma is never actually seen to be running especially fast, but I'll use some standard Newton equations to work out how fast he's moving while jumping along at high speed. When he's jumping along, if he's taking off at 45 degree angles, then his horizontal speed will equal his vertical speed. Since vertical acceleration (is a constant (ie g), his speed can be worked out from his height above the ground. Say he jumps about 20m high, then (from earlier equation) his vertical speed will be sqrt(20*10*2)=20m/s, and his actual speed sqrt(20² *2)=28m/s. This is about 3x faster than the fastest runner, and he can keep this up for quite a distance - a couple of 100m doesn't even tire him.”

Its based on this move speed that I am doing all other affirmations.
Except that the manga, and your source(which draws on the manga), have his attack and manevering speed at much higher than simply 3x human:
Fist-speed (a la Kachü Tenshin Amaguriken)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, in V6 (Viz GN5) when Ranma is fighting Ryöga who's just learned the Bakusai Tenketsu, Ranma hits Ryöga several 100 times so fast it looks like one punch. Now lets say that to do this he punches Ryöga 200 times in 0.1 seconds. From looking at the picture it doesn't look like Ranma's arm movement covers a particularly large distance, say 0.25m each way - punching forwards, and taking the arm back. Therefore each punch takes 0.5m at at rate of 2000/sec. Which means his fists move on average 1000m/s. Now, this is 3 times the speed of sound, though we don't get any sonic booms. Also, since this is the average, the maximum would be higher, say about twice as fast.
The Speed of Ranma's Attacks are much faster than three times normal human speed. The example above, from when Ryoga underwent Bakusai Tenketsu training, puts his punches at roughly supersonic speeds.
Ranma got hit with Kuno's slash, yeah. What you forgot to mention though,
You are doing the same failure of everyone, I am not arguing about Ranma skill to dodge, but that he can be hurt by the bokken to deny the arguments that he would not be hurt by the lightsaber.
What he way trying to say was that for Ranma, a hit from a Lightsaber would likely not be a one-hit fatality, assuming that Anakin could hit him.
Anakin can block blaster fire because he knows where the blaster is being aimed at before the guy finishes pulling the trigger and can position it fast enough that they won't be able to adjust their aim.
Anakin can block the blaster because he can move his saber fast enough to hit something at that speed. If Ranma hit at that speed, it is possible for Anakin to block him as well.
Except that Ranma moves and punches far faster than a blaster bolt can travel. Up to a hundred times faster. Literally fast enough to put his hand into a fire and pull it out before the heat even touches him.
Dodging: Igot, you say that Ranma can't win the fight just by dodging.
Because you have to attack. Anakin would not attack him like crazy, because it would be useless, as Ranma would dodge him and that would cause an opening. Ranma would have, as usual, the upper hand and attack first. Anakin would have to defend his area and strike when Ranma goes inside there- to make either Ranma dodge away and therefore leave the area or hit and “won”. That is the best possible tatics against someone faster than you.
Except Ranma is the faster one here. Capable of hitting an opponent multiple times, in seperate portions of his body, in the space of time that a human eye percieves a single movement.

In short, by the time Anakin tries to swing his sword to avoid a punch from his left, Ranma can hit him in his Right shoulder, knee, crack a rib, and finish it off by sweeping his leg out from under him.... And that's just playing around. Not playing, Ranma leads him into a swing, and punts him into the stratosphere as he's recovering.
Will Power: Yeah, Ranma has a few psychological weak spots. Food, honor, hurting the emotions of girls, pride, cats, and so on and so forth. Psychological weak spots != weak will.
I am glad you think that. I would not say weak will, but susceptible will. That is all that is needed.
Except Anikin does not have the skill to work on anyting that would affect Ranma in his normal life, much less in the middle of a fight. Trying to distract him with food only gets you an LEO Kick to get rid of you in oder to get to the food.

Bringing Akane into the mess only nets you the ass-stomping of your life.

Triggering the Neko-Ken... You"re a dead man. Neko-Ranma juliannes you and goes off for a nap in Akane's lap.
As for the cat fear being an indication of his weak will, remember that it was done to him when he was 10 years old. I'd like to see you toss a ten year old Anakin Skywalker into that situation sans Force and see what happens.
Keep in mind that they used the cat fear as indication of strong will, when it is not exactly true.
Plus, you do not need to do or you forget that Anakin’s life was not heaven as well ?


Anakin was never sold into marriage on at least two seperate occasions.

Anakin was never left to be mauled by a pit of hungry cats as a child.

Anakin was never forced into a life of constant wandering for ten years, half of which was running from the autorities.

Anakin never had to hide from his own mother on the fear of death. Hell, Anakin at least knew his mother for most of his childhood.

Anakin never had to live with a life-altering curse because of someone else's stupidity.

In short, Anakin Skywalker never had Genma Saotome for a father.
Actually, no; toss in a 10 year old Yoda, since Anakin is already a lot weaker of will than Ranma
That is very doubtful. Anakin is near a Jedi, His will is superior than most living beings, that is a part of being Jedi and not a part of Anything Goes Martial Arts.


Funny, then why is the one thing that is likely to trigger Anakin's fall to the Dark Side the one thing that makes Ranma Stronger?

Why is Anakin hampered by the challenges in his life, while Ranma finds ways to improve on them?

Ranma and Anakin have the exact same weakness, but as messed-up as Ranma's problem is, he's dealt with it a lot better than Anakin did.
What do I mean about Anakin's weaknesses?
I totally agree with you. They are actually pretty similar (a rare thing in those versus scenarios). But there is a difference between both. Anakin is the one training to be Jedi and use that. Ranma don’t. It is a weakness that Ranma have not much how to take advantage.


So he'll just have to settle for being faster, stonger, more powerful, and an all-around better fighter.
Ranma w/ a Lightsabre: Don't bother giving him the half hour, since he doesn't need it.
Now you are not being logical. Ranma can use weapons well. But one things is being good enough to hold his weapon, other thing is winning against a Foe that is extremely good with that and is also a super-human. The great difference of technique would work here.
You mean like Kuno, Mousse, Herb, Kirin, Touma, and Saffon?
That's because it's a specific, ground in weakness. And technically, he only goes into it 3 times, one of which was on purpose. Usually, he runs and screams cause there's no pressing need to hide it anymore as there was in that one instant.
It still there, he still lost control. It is not a feat of great willpower of Ranma, no way, like it was claimed.
There's a difference between will and insanity. Ranma's Aluriphobia(Fear of Cats) is clinically defined as a mental disorder. To fight against a psycological disorder that completey re-writes your mental processes takes extreme will.
It's like saying that Ranma would be weak of will for getting drunk when Kuno shoved a bottle of sake down his throat, or when Shampoo kept dunking his head in that tub of sake.
They only show that Ranma’s mind can lost control. Plus, I am not the one who must give evidence, others must show that he will be imunne to the force in the way Jabba is.
See above. He doesn't have to be. His will is strong enough.

Jabba's resistance is becaue of his alien physiology, like Watto. Unless you want to claim that he's super-willed.

Mind Tricks work on the weak-willed. Ranma can project his will into an energy blast. Figure it out.
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lgot wrote:The Drunkard Kid:
Ranma's running speed speed:
Here, I will post to your from where I assume Ranma’s body movement if about 3,4 times of the best human. You look and do your analyze if that is acceptable or not.
This is Chris Rijk’s calculations, I first saw it in a old Debate in one Ranma Mailing List, long ago. Even if not everyone agreed , there was not much successful attempts to put down him and he is a extremely knowledge source for Ranma (and about anything else Manga- related) .

“Ranma is never actually seen to be running especially fast, but I'll use some standard Newton equations to work out how fast he's moving while jumping along at high speed. When he's jumping along, if he's taking off at 45 degree angles, then his horizontal speed will equal his vertical speed. Since vertical acceleration (is a constant (ie g), his speed can be worked out from his height above the ground. Say he jumps about 20m high, then (from earlier equation) his vertical speed will be sqrt(20*10*2)=20m/s, and his actual speed sqrt(20² *2)=28m/s. This is about 3x faster than the fastest runner, and he can keep this up for quite a distance - a couple of 100m doesn't even tire him.”

Assuming that that scooter could at least reach 60 mph, Ranma had casually left something in the dust that was @3 times human peak speed, and he maintained this speed without the slightest effort for several blocks and had a fight at the end of it. And as fast as a 100mph car is, I doubt that it can get behind me so fast that I don't think it's even moved, and my perception speed is nowhere near as fast as Ryouga or Akane's (who can block multiple arrows fired at her from behind without any particular effort; A regular arrow is about 1/3 the speed of sound). Ranma's regular movment speed seems to be a lot higher than 3-4 times peak human, in addition to the ability to make short term blitzes of much greater speed than normal like when he leaves afterimages. It doesn't seem to take much effort, but he doesn't seem to use it for long term jogging.

Rijk's the originator of RanmaFAQ, right? He made another error later when he assumed that the speed of one of Ranma's normal punches was about the same as that of a normal, untrained human being's. If you plugged in Bruce Lee holding back's number (1/30th of a second), you get a fist speed much higher than what the FAQ had down. In this particular case though, I think it has more to do with the fact that the gravitational constant is very random in Ranma 1/2, considering how long Ranma and Genma stay in the air during their sparring sessions. He just chose a very bad example.

Also, most of the time he's horribly holding back. Whenever he's going all out, only the real uber-martial artists are ever hanging around. Heck, later on, Mousse and Mint were shown as just blurs, and the former is generally moving in slow motion to Ranma. Ditto for the Ranma vs. Konatsu duel later on.


Its based on this move speed that I am doing all other affirmations.

Like I said, he just chose a really bad example. Gravity is not the physical law you want to use as a baseline standard in Ranma 1/2. Distance/Time is safe enough, but if you bring in universal constants any more complecated than that, and it gets all wonky due to inconsistent showings.
Ranma got hit with Kuno's slash, yeah. What you forgot to mention though,
You are doing the same failure of everyone, I am not arguing about Ranma skill to dodge, but that he can be hurt by the bokken to deny the arguments that he would not be hurt by the lightsaber.

Oh that I agree with. Kuno's bokken uses a ki aura (you can see it in the first few panels of their first confrontation) and raw speed to let it cut through stone, directly and from a distance, respectively. A lightsabre doesn't do cutting damage; it burns, really, really hot.
Anakin can block blaster fire because he knows where the blaster is being aimed at before the guy finishes pulling the trigger and can position it fast enough that they won't be able to adjust their aim.
Anakin can block the blaster because he can move his saber fast enough to hit something at that speed. If Ranma hit at that speed, it is possible for Anakin to block him as well.

From what I understand of Jedi Precognition, they move their blades into position a split second before the trigger is pulled, much less the shots being in transition. Not to mention that the fact that we can track them with our eyes makes it slower than mach speeds, or even Kuno's bokken (since that moves so fast that it appears to be in multiple, *parallel* places at once. Even using RanmaFAQs underestimations, Ranma's fist breaks the sound barrier several times over soon after he undergoes the Amaguriken training (which, in the manga version, is simply a training technique to increase his normal fist speed, not an actual special technique).
Dodging: Igot, you say that Ranma can't win the fight just by dodging.
Because you have to attack. Anakin would not attack him like crazy, because it would be useless, as Ranma would dodge him and that would cause an opening. Ranma would have, as usual, the upper hand and attack first. Anakin would have to defend his area and strike when Ranma goes inside there- to make either Ranma dodge away and therefore leave the area or hit and “won”. That is the best possible tatics against someone faster than you.

Fight motion with motionless? That would work, if Ranma wasn't the worst person for Anakin to be faced with. He's a lot more skilled at making his opponents go into berserker rages just by talking to them, and Anakin tends to go into berserker charges when people seem to be casually beating him. And again, the Mouko Takabisha would pretty much crush Anakin the first time he even tried to block it, and Ranma and Ryouga can toss those out all day. In the Manga version, they're invisible, spheres of force about as long in diameter as Ranma is tall. And then there's the whole Hiryuu Shoten Ha thing again. One cold spiral of ki later (tossed by an immobile/dodging Ranma), and Anakin is the deadest Jedi that ever did lift a lightsabre.
Will Power: Yeah, Ranma has a few psychological weak spots. Food, honor, hurting the emotions of girls, pride, cats, and so on and so forth. Psychological weak spots != weak will.
I am glad you think that. I would not say weak will, but susceptible will. That is all that is needed.

Susceptible to things that Anakin can't possibly bring into the ring, especially not without foreknowledge. Even if Anakin decides to bake a cake for this fight, Ranma's not gonna eat it due to his suspicions (re: what he does around Kodachi all the time). Heck, spot him a cat; Ranma runs away and willingly shifts into the Neko-Ken, aka, "make Cologne forfeit mode". Besides, AFAIK, the Jedi Mind Trick is nowhere near as subtle as that. Weak will is the target, and while Ranma's got a few holes in his psyche, a weak willed person wouldn't be able to stay sane after the kind of crap he's been through.
As for the cat fear being an indication of his weak will, remember that it was done to him when he was 10 years old. I'd like to see you toss a ten year old Anakin Skywalker into that situation sans Force and see what happens.
Keep in mind that they used the cat fear as indication of strong will, when it is not exactly true.

I think they used Ranma forcing himself to stay sane despite being in an almost exact recreation of the traumatizing event in question, and later tying a cat to himself despite his overwhelming fear of them (vs. Cologne) as an example of his willpower.

Plus, you do not need to do or you forget that Anakin’s life was not heaven as well ?

Anakin's life was a lot less physically and emotionally demanding than the kind of crap that Ranma's been through, up until the death of his mother. Yeah, he was a slave, but he was still with his loving mother and his master didn't seem to abuse him, and in fact gave him a lot of leeway. Afterwards, he was raised by a guy that seemed to be a very caring and gentle person, and while I'm certain that he underwent rigorous training, I'm also sure that it was a lot more along the lines of a sane person's training. Ranma's father stole his food, sold him out at least once, kept him on the move and put him through grueling physical training every day for 10 years, not to mention the physical and psychological torture of the Neko-ken training...

OTOH, Anakin met Jar Jar Binks... Maybe you have a point here...

Actually, no; toss in a 10 year old Yoda, since Anakin is already a lot weaker of will than Ranma
That is very doubtful. Anakin is near a Jedi, His will is superior than most living beings, that is a part of being Jedi and not a part of Anything Goes Martial Arts.

Anakin was a very high strung padawan. If you even blinked "Padme" in morse code near him, he'd start tripping over his feet and spouting the lamest come on lines since Dante's "You remind me of my mother." And a martial artist that can throw spheres of pure confidence doesn't have an art style that requires willpower? Heck, even Genma has a specific maneuver that would become useless if you can't keep your cool in a fight (the Umisenken's invisibility). They're all strong of will, but when it comes to their weakpoints, they've got a lot more and a lot larger. Heck, the training for the Foie Gras technique involves starving himself (and we all know Ranma's weak point of food), and he didn't even hesitate a moment or back down for a second before he started using it.
What do I mean about Anakin's weaknesses?
I totally agree with you. They are actually pretty similar (a rare thing in those versus scenarios). But there is a difference between both. Anakin is the one training to be Jedi and use that. Ranma don’t. It is a weakness that Ranma have not much how to take advantage.

Anakin's major weakness, outside of Padme, is that he's horribly easy to piss off when someone outclasses him as much as Ranma does. Even if he doesn't go for the cheapshot wins like the HSH (and it's variations), MT, Kijin Raishu Dan (he should know it, if he learned the much tougher Umisenken after seeing the techniques once), grabbing rocks off the ground and throwing several of them simultaneously at full speed, etc..., he can easily get Anakin to leave an opening in his style.
And for specific instances of Ranma using willpower to overcome mental effects,
You mean, Specific Instances that a mind trick worked and later Ranma overcome ?
Sorry, but they still do not show that jedi mind tricks would not work with him at all. He might even avoid them later, but later would be too late.

Nope. The first time it worked, and the second time it started to work but Ranma just shrugged it off. And when has a Jedi ever used the Mind Trick and fought at the same time? Even if he *could*, he'd have to find time to do it while simultaneously attacking before Ranma can recover, which won't be more than a split second. If he's close enough that he can get that swing off, he's too busy dodging Ranma's attacks or keeping his defense strong to even consider using the JMT cause he can have his face caved in the moment he starts concentrating on it.
Ranma w/ a Lightsabre: Don't bother giving him the half hour, since he doesn't need it.
Now you are not being logical. Ranma can use weapons well. But one things is being good enough to hold his weapon, other thing is winning against a Foe that is extremely good with that and is also a super-human. The great difference of technique would work here.

Ranma *is* extremely good with his weapon. Akane is skilled enough with a bokken to match Kuno skill for skill, and Ranma is generally Akane X 100 in any martial arts related skill outside of skating. And if you want to use real world skill instead of just assuming that the Jedi are grandmasters despite their actual depiction (and this is what I generally advocate, since the depiction in AOTC and TPM were utterly horrible, skillwise), then Anakin leaves about 50 holes in his defense whenever he fights.

Not to mention that Ranma managed to use the amaguriken speed with his sword. Anakin will block one shot due to Jedi Precog, then get sliced into cubes before he can come close to realizing that the shot was blocked. In the Manga, Ranma had full control of the Amaguriken speed, and didn't just lash out blindly.

That's because it's a specific, ground in weakness. And technically, he only goes into it 3 times, one of which was on purpose. Usually, he runs and screams cause there's no pressing need to hide it anymore as there was in that one instant.
It still there, he still lost control. It is not a feat of great willpower of Ranma, no way, like it was claimed.

He lost control when he either wanted to, or after resisting a very powerful phobia for a long time. That's like saying that Martian Manhunter isn't possessing a strong will because he eventually succumbs to a fear that he's been resisting for a long time. And again, this isn't something that Anakin can even conceivably exploit, especially since it risks something far worse than fighting Ranma fairly.
It's like saying that Ranma would be weak of will for getting drunk when Kuno shoved a bottle of sake down his throat, or when Shampoo kept dunking his head in that tub of sake.
They only show that Ranma’s mind can lost control.

There are plenty of examples of Ranma having strong will (heck, he wins half his fights by just taking what his enemies have until he figures out the trick and then uses it on them; see Ranma vs. Ryouga w/ the Perfect Shishi Hokodan), and it never even slows down. No member of the entire cast has ever managed to slow down a magical effect, willpower or not.

Plus, I am not the one who must give evidence, others must show that he will be imunne to the force in the way Jabba is.
Immune? Jabba was immune due to his race, IIRC. Ranma's lust for food is a whole lot less than Jabba's, his lust for... well, lust is also a lot less. Now can you show any indication of any Jedi using the JMT inside a fight? Or that it requires anything but strong will (as Obi Wan said in ANH) to completely ignore?
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Post by The Drunkard Kid »

generator_g1 wrote:
The Drunkard Kid wrote:
generator_g1 wrote:A little correction on that love umbrella...Nabiki doesn't love Kuno...she loves Kuno's money :)

I wonder how would Anakin stand up against the effects of the Fishing Rod of Love?
Nope. Remember, she loved him so much that she gave him a discount for her heart. :)
I had the manga for the love umbrella...

- Kuno and Nabiki under the umbrella
- Shocked Furinken students around them
- Nabiki reaches into Kuno's shirt, pulls out his wallet
- We see Nabiki doing the glittery eyes lovey dovey thing together with a something amount yen bill.

Where did Nabiki say that heart discount? :)
IIRC, it's around that last step. I'll get back to you tomorrow, after I look it up. Right now, I'm sitting in a dark room dealing with my insomnia in my own special way, and my roommates would sacrifice me to the Gods of Sleep if I turned on the lights...
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Post by The Drunkard Kid »

Alright, a quick bout of online research reveals that Ranma running up the telephone pole against Tsubasa took place in volume 10, and the love umbrella in volume 31:
Ranma 1/2 Volume 31, Chapter 6, pg 89-91 wrote: (Page 89)
Ranma: What are you talking about?!
Akane: Can it be that this is that legendary...
Nabiki: *Smirk*, nonsense. Legendary umbrella... there is no such thing!
Kunou: Oh, unromantic girl, Tendou Nabiki.
Akane: Oneechan...
Kunou: *Smirk*, a lie or not...
Kunou: Let's use it together and find that out, Tendou Akane!
Kunou: Why you...

(Page 90)
Boy #1: It is, it is!
Boy #2: I guess you're right...
Kunou: T... Tendou Nabiki, why haven't I noticed your beauty before.
Nabiki: Kunou-chan, I didn't realize that you were this wonderful...
Akane: O... oh no! If we don't do something, she will become one of
Kunou-sempai's victim...
Ranma: We have to take that umbrella away...

(Page 91)
Kunou: Tell me! What can I do to make you mine?!
Nabiki: Right now, if you give me 10,000 yen... yes, 10,000 yen should be
enough.
Nabiki: . o O ( Ahh! Ten thousand yen that Kunou-chan gave me... )
Nabiki: . o O ( I'm going to treasure this forever! )

Ranma: Fold it. Just listen to me and fold it.
Nabiki: Huh? What was I doing?!
Akane: You were acting exactly like you always do...
Kunou: T... there's no doubt about it... this is that legendary umbrella!
Kunou: Let's love each other, Tendou Akane!
Alright, the bold portion's the important part. I guess that the discount part was probably added in by the fantranslaters that I read it from, unless you count the whole "yes, 10,000 yen should be enough" part considering that she charges around that much for just pictures...
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"That used to be Spider-Man, honey."
"What killed him?"
"A zipper. Some said it was velcro, but the Daily Bugle said it was a zipper, and I believe the Bugle."
"Wow, he musta been real stupid, huh?"
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Post by generator_g1 »

Alright, the bold portion's the important part. I guess that the discount part was probably added in by the fantranslaters that I read it from, unless you count the whole "yes, 10,000 yen should be enough" part considering that she charges around that much for just pictures.
Oh well, I guess we just got different interpretations from the fantranslaters since most of the Ranma volumes I have are in Chinese.. :)
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Post by ANGELUS »

lgot wrote:Blasting energy against a Jedi is not the best way of attacking one, right ?
It seemed pretty useful when Dooku used it on Anakin or when Palpatine used it on Luke. Yes, the Jedi can deflect energy with their sabers and their own bodyes and can even absorb it, but it is not a limitless abilitie, they can only absorb a certain amount of it.
lgot wrote:
Anakin can block blaster fire because he knows where the blaster is being aimed at before the guy finishes pulling the trigger and can position it fast enough that they won't be able to adjust their aim.
Anakin can block the blaster because he can move his saber fast enough to hit something at that speed. If Ranma hit at that speed, it is possible for Anakin to block him as well.
Maeby, but let's see him trying to stop hundreds of blasts a second. See my point? not even he could do that, heck! not even hundreds of jedis could do it! since so many of them got killed in Geneosis. Ranma can throw hundreds of punches a second, even if Anakin managed to block some of them he wouldn't be able to block all of them, and yes, I know what you are going to say about the dodging thing, Ranma would have to dodge to escape from Anakin's attacks, but Anakin would be very busy using his sabre to block and wouldn't be able to attack at the same time. I told you that both defense and attack are part of fighting, but not even the most skilled fighter can do both at the same time, he's not all powerful, remember? (and yes, Anakin can sense where the blast is going to hit before it is even fired, but it doesn't make him fast enough to stop all of them).
lgot wrote:
Dodging: Igot, you say that Ranma can't win the fight just by dodging.
Because you have to attack. Anakin would not attack him like crazy, because it would be useless, as Ranma would dodge him and that would cause an opening. Ranma would have, as usual, the upper hand and attack first. Anakin would have to defend his area and strike when Ranma goes inside there- to make either Ranma dodge away and therefore leave the area or hit and “won”. That is the best possible tatics against someone faster than you.
Ha ha ha! come on Igot, we've seen Anakin attacking Dooku like crazy, even after Obi instructed him not to do so. He attacked both first and frenetically, this shows that he doesn't really care if it is useless or not and that Anakin likes also to atack first, he's reckless and arrogant, remember?
lgot wrote:
Will Power: Yeah, Ranma has a few psychological weak spots. Food, honor, hurting the emotions of girls, pride, cats, and so on and so forth. Psychological weak spots != weak will.
I am glad you think that. I would not say weak will, but susceptible will. That is all that is needed.
It depends, the fact that some things like food, honor, hurting the emotions of girls, pride or cats can make him give up doesn't mean that anything you use on him will.
lgot wrote:
As for the cat fear being an indication of his weak will, remember that it was done to him when he was 10 years old. I'd like to see you toss a ten year old Anakin Skywalker into that situation sans Force and see what happens.
Keep in mind that they used the cat fear as indication of strong will, when it is not exactly true.
Plus, you do not need to do or you forget that Anakin’s life was not heaven as well ?
I don't remember Anakin ever beign tossed into a pack of starving cats while covered with food. And even before that, Ranma's life was very hard, so I don't think Anakin had a wors't childhood than him.
lgot wrote:
Actually, no; toss in a 10 year old Yoda, since Anakin is already a lot weaker of will than Ranma
That is very doubtful. Anakin is near a Jedi, His will is superior than most living beings, that is a part of being Jedi and not a part of Anything Goes Martial Arts.
Yeah right, that's why he turned to the dark side, and lets his rage dominate him all the time and Palpatine manipulates him so easily that he doesn't pay attention to his master's (the closest he has to a father) advice (remember "You don't need any guidance..."). Besides, beign a martial artist takes a lot of will training to teach you to control your anger and avoid fighting at all costs it doesn't matter how furious you are, and even to keep attacking wen your'e hurt. So IT IS a part of martial arts. Okay, I agree that it is a part of Jedi training as well, but it is a part that Anakin hasn't learned that well.

lgot wrote:
What do I mean about Anakin's weaknesses?
I totally agree with you. They are actually pretty similar (a rare thing in those versus scenarios). But there is a difference between both. Anakin is the one training to be Jedi and use that. Ranma don’t. It is a weakness that Ranma have not much how to take advantage.
Ranma is training to be a martial arts master, so? what's your point?
lgot wrote:
And for specific instances of Ranma using willpower to overcome mental effects,
You mean, Specific Instances that a mind trick worked and later Ranma overcome ?
Sorry, but they still do not show that jedi mind tricks would not work with him at all. He might even avoid them later, but later would be too late.
It doesn't show that they will.
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Post by The Drunkard Kid »

Minor correction re: Ranma's strength. While Ranmascan said it was 3 tons, I don't think that the original translation had any actual number for the weight of the rock that Ranma hit Saffron with, though 3 tons seems about right for it's apparent size. However Ranma didn't exactly throw it. He had grabbed it with the Gekkaja and tried to use it to pull himself out of the Hiryuu Shoten Ha's tornado, but it broke off and slammed into Saffron, stunning the phoenix demigod. Mousse (who Ranma has KO'd in one or two good hits on previous occassions) then comments that Saffron appears to be really weak at taking a hit, implying that Ranma normally hits considerably harder than a multi ton rock flying in tornado force winds.

Another good strength feat was in volume 28, where Ranma carries about 95+% of the compressed rock/metal that composed a Buddha statue that was about 30-40ft tall and around that wide at the base on his back. He then simultaneously dodges all of Ryu's vacuum blades, loosens the dirt on the entire field, and strips both Ryu and Soun down to their boxers faster than they can react and jumps to the top of the shrine the battle was taking place next to, all within the space of a few seconds while carrying all that rock on his back. It should be noted that he was keeping his ki down to almost nothing in this instance in order to keep his invisibility up, and afterwards he jumps ten feet in the air and flips the bag around without any significant effort.

In terms of strength, Ranma seems to be somewhere b/w 15-25 tons, possibly higher. Heck, in his girl form he shattered a boulder that was about as tall as she was and a lot wider (than it was tall) with one hit when she focused her ki. This same boulder had repeatedly broken every tool that was ever used against it. That's probably larger than her regular strength (probably a lot larger, in fact), but Ranma's a lot weaker in his girl form than in his male form (Tarou threw a boulder at his girl form and she was panicing until she managed to transform back into a guy and then just broke it apart without the slightest effort).

Anakin blocks a single slash from Ranma and he's gonna find his own lightsabre being shoved back right through his own head.


Re: Magic vs. Willpower, I just thought of a really good example. Cologne seems to have a lot of willpower (though she's admittedly capable of spazzing out every now and again). Mousse, using a magical artifact that's used to protect young and/or feeble amazons when no warriors are around, managed to make Cologne beg for his forgiveness and ask him to beat her up like she deserved (her own words) without the slightest resistance.
"What's that smear on the wall, Mommy?"
"That used to be Spider-Man, honey."
"What killed him?"
"A zipper. Some said it was velcro, but the Daily Bugle said it was a zipper, and I believe the Bugle."
"Wow, he musta been real stupid, huh?"
"Yes honey, he was."
lgot
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Post by lgot »

Everyone:
Except that the manga, and your source(which draws on the manga), have his attack and manevering speed at much higher than simply 3x human:
That is the speed of his fist attacks. Not his body movement. Some of you keep doing the same mistake to argue that as it would be the same speed he would have to move from point A to B. It is not. Drunkard Kid for example had to the care to notice the difference.
What he way trying to say was that for Ranma, a hit from a Lightsaber would likely not be a one-hit fatality, assuming that Anakin could hit him.
It still no evidence that Ranma can resist the cutting or lightsaber. And if the saber hits him for example, where Kunou did, it would be a one-hit victory, yeah.
In short, by the time Anakin tries to swing his sword to avoid a punch from his left, Ranma can hit him in his Right shoulder, knee, crack a rib, and finish it off by sweeping his leg out from under him....
So ? There is no argument. Ranma win with one punch. The argument I had is about the possibility of Him being hit when he moves inside the threat area of the lightsaber, which is bigger than the threat area of punching, and something he does with less speed that punching.
Funny, then why is the one thing that is likely to trigger Anakin's fall to the Dark Side the one thing that makes Ranma Stronger?
Because how would Ranma take advantage of that ? Ranma have no mental powers to use against Anakin.
Why is Anakin hampered by the challenges in his life, while Ranma finds ways to improve on them?
Uh ? Anakin dealt with that very well, He will became the second most powerful being in the Galaxy and so on. He dealt in a evil way, but he dealt and he was successful, been dark side, does not mean being weaker of failure.
Yeah right, that's why he turned to the dark side, and lets his rage dominate him all the time and Palpatine manipulates him so easily that he doesn't pay attention to his master's
Uh, Being manipulated by Palpatine is not demerit. Everyone in the entire Galaxy was. And Anakin will is not weaker because he turns to the dark side. It was weaker than Palpatine’s that made him turn, that is all. Darth Vader had a extremely strong will, dark side with him.
You mean like Kuno, Mousse, Herb, Kirin, Touma, and Saffon?
Not in the scenario with Ranma having to use the saber. Unlike those examples.
There's a difference between will and insanity.
I will repeat, People used the cat-fu as a example of strong will, when it is not. I DID NOT used it as example of anything.
Jabba's resistance is becaue of his alien physiology, like Watto. Unless you want to claim that he's super-willed.

Mind Tricks work on the weak-willed. Ranma can project his will into an energy blast. Figure it out.
Exactly, The Force does not worked only on those like Jabba or Watto (Which was not because of the will power) and over those better users of the force , with stronger will (it works even over Yoda, After all Palpatine hides himself from Yoda).
Ranma is neither. He have a good willpower as an fighter, but there is no evidence he would be in any of those groups. So, the force works.
Rijk's the originator of RanmaFAQ, right? He made another error later when he assumed that the speed of one of Ranma's normal punches was about the same as that of a normal, untrained human being's.
I think it is arguable if the Gravity power would have the normal value as C.R uses in his calcs. But that would be all, and its acceptable, even if open to arguments then.
If I ignore the calcs ( I suppose you accept them, as done correctly, as you contest them as bad because the example used) to them assume Ranma is faster, lets say 6,7 times, then fine, He will break the threat area without much danger of a hit.
If I keep the calcs, then I assume Anakin can hit him when he come inside the threat area, before Ranma was able to come in close combat.
For know then, I will let this open to one future someone prove or not which is better, but for now, Your point is understood and accepted, and any extra argument here will have not to do with this topic, ok ? (For example, no need to argue with you about the block blaster stuff, as it would be only useful if the calcs are accepted fully]
He's a lot more skilled at making his opponents go into berserker rages just by talking to them, and Anakin tends to go into berserker charges when people seem to be casually beating him.
So does Ranma, they are actually very much similar, both very skilled, natural born martial artists, with a big ego, stubbornness…
But I think people are unfair with Anakin, we do not see that number of battles t osee him going in that rage, but with Dooku, as more skilled swordsman, not beating him casually, but because he was best.
Susceptible to things that Anakin can't possibly bring into the ring, especially not without foreknowledge.
There is no saying that he would know about cats and would pretend to make Ranma hear meows. The tricks can work other way , Just like Obi-wan’s “I do not want to fight, lets look the other side, etc”
Anakin's life was a lot less physically and emotionally demanding than the kind of crap that Ranma's been through, up until the death of his mother.
wait, he was a slave in planet of ruthless beings that even the empire avoided. His mother, his so loving one as you claim was abandoned there, died in his arms.
Ranma have not even been within this situation, he never had Nokoda or Akane death for real in his arms and his act when he thought she (akane) did was similar reaction to Anakin’s : He wanted to kill. They are very similar indeed.
Anakin was a very high strung padawan. If you even blinked "Padme" in morse code near him, he'd start tripping over his feet and spouting the lamest come on lines since Dante's "You remind me of my mother."
Wait, Ranma is no success around girls either, he is not even able to express the love, we all know, he feels.
But that is not the point, His mind is so powerful that he , even without training can already manipulate the force to have the big reflexes.
If he's close enough that he can get that swing off, he's too busy dodging Ranma's attacks or keeping his defense strong to even consider using the JMT cause he can have his face caved in the moment he starts concentrating on it.
no, the Mind trick would be used only if Ranma wanted to won by HSH for example, far away, Those attacks, to summon those energies are as fast as jedi tricks in my opinion.
Ranma *is* extremely good with his weapon.
Anakin is also. The difference is basically, Anakin is better. He will be better, the better will won.
then Anakin leaves about 50 holes in his defense whenever he fights.
That is very unfair, the fight with Dooku he does that, but against a superior foe in the same skill. Not what Ranma is.
He attacked both first and frenetically, this shows that he doesn't really care if it is useless or not and that Anakin likes also to atack first, he's reckless and arrogant, remember?
So, it is Ranma. Ranma is faster, he will attack first.
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SAMAS
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Post by SAMAS »

lgot wrote:Everyone:
Except that the manga, and your source(which draws on the manga), have his attack and manevering speed at much higher than simply 3x human:
That is the speed of his fist attacks. Not his body movement. Some of you keep doing the same mistake to argue that as it would be the same speed he would have to move from point A to B. It is not. Drunkard Kid for example had to the care to notice the difference.
Except for the fact that, unless Ranma tries the Saotome Secret Technique, Running speed has no bearing on this fight.
What he way trying to say was that for Ranma, a hit from a Lightsaber would likely not be a one-hit fatality, assuming that Anakin could hit him.
It still no evidence that Ranma can resist the cutting or lightsaber. And if the saber hits him for example, where Kunou did, it would be a one-hit victory, yeah.
Except Anakin is unlikey to hit Ranma.
In short, by the time Anakin tries to swing his sword to avoid a punch from his left, Ranma can hit him in his Right shoulder, knee, crack a rib, and finish it off by sweeping his leg out from under him....
So ? There is no argument. Ranma win with one punch.
Well then...

Image
The argument I had is about the possibility of Him being hit when he moves inside the threat area of the lightsaber, which is bigger than the threat area of punching, and something he does with less speed that punching.
Wrong. He could do that way back in volume 1.

And let's look at one of the last fights in which Kuno was a real credible threat in the manga.
Volume 1, Part Six -- Ranma has just told Kuno that he would never see the Pig-tailed girl again, and walks around a corner, where he is promptly splashed with water.

Kuno come barrelling around the corner, but Ranma has disappeared. In his fury, he slices a tree in half with his bokuto, and Ranma falls out. Seeing his "Pig-tailed girl," Kuno embraces Ranma in a crushing hug, right before Nabiki dumps a kettle of hot water on her.

Now male, and still being hugged by Kuno, Ranma gets Kuno away with a kick to the face. Nabiki gives Kuno one of the most vauge explanations of Ranma's curse possible, and Kuno naturally takes it the wrong way and attacks Ranma. Ranma dodges a thrust, grabs Kuno's bokuto, and kicks him in the chest before he could retract from his attack. Kuno goes reeling, and several photos fall out. Ranma picks up one, and sees that it's a rather risque shot of him as a girl. This distraction leaves him open for an attack by Kuno.
Notes: Notice that the only reason that Kuno managed to hit Ranma was because Ranma was distracted by the photo.

In addition, Kuno's attack, which can shatter a concrete wall back in Part three, and sliced through trees twice in this very battle, only leaves a bruise, and later it's diagnosed as being the least of Ranma's injuries after having Akane beat the mess outta him after the fight.

And as a final note, Ranma can get under the guard of a sword way back in Part 3. He was about 10-15 feet away, and got in Kuno's face "before Kuno could blink"(Quote from Akane).
Volume 1, Part 7 -- Ramna, in pain from the slash he had just taken still manages to land on his feet. He dodges two more attacks from Kuno, and grabs three more pictures. Again distracted, Ranma is hit by a thust, but easily rolls with the blow, inadvertently getting a look up Akane's skirt in the process. Akane promptly boots him back into the fight, where Kuno launches into his multi-strike attack. Ranma, still in midair, dodges the attacks, which crack a nearby stone statue from the air pressure of the blows. As Ranma falls to the ground, he turns to tell Akane to get out of the way. Kuno makes another slash at the distracted Ranma, but Ranma sees it coming this time. Ranma twists, dodging the attack and swiftly moving his foot up the length of Kuno's body. Ranma finishes the flip, finally landing on the foot he just used to attack Kuno. Kuno falls face first to the ground, out cold. Akane flips him over, showing that Ranma kicked Kuno at least seven times in that one movement, a move so fast that Nabiki couldn't even see.
Okay, let's review again: Again, Ranma takes an attack only due to a distraction.

While in Midair, Ranma:
  • Dodges several dozen attacks from Kuno
  • Calls out a warning
  • Kicks Kuno 7+ times faster than a human could determine them.
Funny, then why is the one thing that is likely to trigger Anakin's fall to the Dark Side the one thing that makes Ranma Stronger?
Because how would Ranma take advantage of that ? Ranma have no mental powers to use against Anakin.
He doesn't have to.
Why is Anakin hampered by the challenges in his life, while Ranma finds ways to improve on them?
Uh ? Anakin dealt with that very well, He will became the second most powerful being in the Galaxy and so on. He dealt in a evil way, but he dealt and he was successful, been dark side, does not mean being weaker of failure.
Are you kidding?

Anakin is going to lose everything he cared about. Padame is going to die, and the Jedi are going to be slaughtered. Hell, he kills Obi-wan himself.

Becoming a Sith Lord makes Anakin an abysmal failure as a Jedi. The only reason he got where he did was because he was far too arrogant and tempermental.
You mean like Kuno, Mousse, Herb, Kirin, Touma, and Saffon?
Not in the scenario with Ranma having to use the saber. Unlike those examples.
They're examples of people who had a reach advantage, with something they'd trained in for most their lives.

Incedentially, Ranma defeated them all.
There's a difference between will and insanity.
I will repeat, People used the cat-fu as a example of strong will, when it is not. I DID NOT used it as example of anything.
See the rest of the point, which you snipped. The Neko-Ken itself isn't the proof of his Free Will. It was his ability to resist it that was the proof.
Jabba's resistance is becaue of his alien physiology, like Watto. Unless you want to claim that he's super-willed.

Mind Tricks work on the weak-willed. Ranma can project his will into an energy blast. Figure it out.
Exactly, The Force does not worked only on those like Jabba or Watto (Which was not because of the will power) and over those better users of the force , with stronger will (it works even over Yoda, After all Palpatine hides himself from Yoda).
Ranma is neither. He have a good willpower as an fighter, but there is no evidence he would be in any of those groups. So, the force works.
Wrong again.

Palpatine masking his presence from Yoda is not an example of Yoda having a weaker will, but of Palpatine having greater power.
He's a lot more skilled at making his opponents go into berserker rages just by talking to them, and Anakin tends to go into berserker charges when people seem to be casually beating him.
So does Ranma, they are actually very much similar, both very skilled, natural born martial artists, with a big ego, stubbornness…
But I think people are unfair with Anakin, we do not see that number of battles t osee him going in that rage, but with Dooku, as more skilled swordsman, not beating him casually, but because he was best.
Don't dodge the question.

Ranma is going to put him in the same position. Sword or not, Ranma is still far faster, stonger, agile, and more skilled. His normal MO is the play with his opponent, and taunt them into a rage. Dooku didn't even have to taunt Anakin.
Susceptible to things that Anakin can't possibly bring into the ring, especially not without foreknowledge.
There is no saying that he would know about cats and would pretend to make Ranma hear meows. The tricks can work other way , Just like Obi-wan’s “I do not want to fight, lets look the other side, etc”
And how many cats have you seen in Star Wars?

And a shown before, a simple little Meow is not going to cut it.
Anakin's life was a lot less physically and emotionally demanding than the kind of crap that Ranma's been through, up until the death of his mother.
wait, he was a slave in planet of ruthless beings that even the empire avoided. His mother, his so loving one as you claim was abandoned there, died in his arms.
Ranma have not even been within this situation, he never had Nokoda or Akane death for real in his arms and his act when he thought she (akane) did was similar reaction to Anakin’s : He wanted to kill. They are very similar indeed.
Wrong. Ranma didn't want to kill Saffron because of what he did to Akane.

He killed Saffron because that was the only way to defeat him. Ranma did everything he could to simply knock out or injure Saffon to end the fight, but Saffon would simply regenerate and keep going. In the end, Akane's time was running out, and Saffon was thowing mountain-destroying shots around to kill him, so Ranma had literally no choice but to kill Saffron to save Akane's life.

As it was, he was already too late, and Akane nearly died in his arms right there. For a while, Ranma thought she actually had. So yes, he was in the exact same position. But unlike Anakin, the people of Phoenix mountain are still alive.
Anakin was a very high strung padawan. If you even blinked "Padme" in morse code near him, he'd start tripping over his feet and spouting the lamest come on lines since Dante's "You remind me of my mother."
Wait, Ranma is no success around girls either, he is not even able to express the love, we all know, he feels.
But that is not the point, His mind is so powerful that he , even without training can already manipulate the force to have the big reflexes.
Yet at the same time, Ranma, using only training, and no Force at all, still has faster reflexes and more srength and power. You yourself admitted that.
If he's close enough that he can get that swing off, he's too busy dodging Ranma's attacks or keeping his defense strong to even consider using the JMT cause he can have his face caved in the moment he starts concentrating on it.
no, the Mind trick would be used only if Ranma wanted to won by HSH for example, far away, Those attacks, to summon those energies are as fast as jedi tricks in my opinion.
So why wasn't the battle on Kamino between Obi-Wan and Jango Fett a lot shorter?
Ranma *is* extremely good with his weapon.
Anakin is also. The difference is basically, Anakin is better. He will be better, the better will won.
Except that Ranma has beaten those "better" at their respective weapons. Several times, in fact. Look up.
then Anakin leaves about 50 holes in his defense whenever he fights.
That is very unfair, the fight with Dooku he does that, but against a superior foe in the same skill. Not what Ranma is.
No, he's a superior for in a skill Anakin has never seen before. Anakin's going to come off even worse.
He attacked both first and frenetically, this shows that he doesn't really care if it is useless or not and that Anakin likes also to atack first, he's reckless and arrogant, remember?
So, it is Ranma. Ranma is faster, he will attack first.
[/quote]

And the battle will end right there as Anakin hits the wall.
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Post by The Drunkard Kid »

lgot wrote:
What he way trying to say was that for Ranma, a hit from a Lightsaber would likely not be a one-hit fatality, assuming that Anakin could hit him.
It still no evidence that Ranma can resist the cutting or lightsaber. And if the saber hits him for example, where Kunou did, it would be a one-hit victory, yeah.

Still, it's unlikely that Anakin will come anywhere near hitting Ranma with that lightsabre.
In short, by the time Anakin tries to swing his sword to avoid a punch from his left, Ranma can hit him in his Right shoulder, knee, crack a rib, and finish it off by sweeping his leg out from under him....
So ? There is no argument. Ranma win with one punch. The argument I had is about the possibility of Him being hit when he moves inside the threat area of the lightsaber, which is bigger than the threat area of punching, and something he does with less speed that punching.

Everything I've seen puts Kuno as being a buttload faster than any Jedi that's been shown in any of the Episodes as of yet. The blaster blocking trick is done thanks to Jedi Precog, as was shown in the training scene from ANH, and it would be useless against a character with far faster reflexes and range attacks.
Funny, then why is the one thing that is likely to trigger Anakin's fall to the Dark Side the one thing that makes Ranma Stronger?
Because how would Ranma take advantage of that ? Ranma have no mental powers to use against Anakin.

No, but he's annoying enough to easily send Anakin into a berserker rush by insulting his skill/speed/strength/etc... From everything shown, Anakin has a crappy level of self control in those situations.
Why is Anakin hampered by the challenges in his life, while Ranma finds ways to improve on them?
Uh ? Anakin dealt with that very well, He will became the second most powerful being in the Galaxy and so on. He dealt in a evil way, but he dealt and he was successful, been dark side, does not mean being weaker of failure.

He dealt with it by betraying everything he ever believed in and becoming the antithesis of what he had been raised to be. Oh, and killing his surrogate father.
Yeah right, that's why he turned to the dark side, and lets his rage dominate him all the time and Palpatine manipulates him so easily that he doesn't pay attention to his master's
You mean like Kuno, Mousse, Herb, Kirin, Touma, and Saffon?
Not in the scenario with Ranma having to use the saber. Unlike those examples.
There's a difference between will and insanity.
I will repeat, People used the cat-fu as a example of strong will, when it is not. I DID NOT used it as example of anything.

What SAMAS said: The Neko-ken isn't the example of strong will, but his willingness to face his psychological disorder when he must (and on at least 1 occassion instigating this confrontation on purpose) *is* an example of strong willpower.
Jabba's resistance is becaue of his alien physiology, like Watto. Unless you want to claim that he's super-willed.

Mind Tricks work on the weak-willed. Ranma can project his will into an energy blast. Figure it out.
Exactly, The Force does not worked only on those like Jabba or Watto (Which was not because of the will power) and over those better users of the force , with stronger will (it works even over Yoda, After all Palpatine hides himself from Yoda).

Ranma is neither. He have a good willpower as an fighter, but there is no evidence he would be in any of those groups. So, the force works.

*Only* on those like Jabba or Watto? According to Obi it's only useful on the weak of will, as well. Everything shown is that Anakin is weaker of will than Ranma is, and that the JMT requires a moment to initiate, a moment he won't have.

As for Yoda, from what we saw in AOTC, it wasn't the Jedi Mind Trick, but just an interference pattern or something like that. Besides, you're using *PALPATINE*, the strongest and most skilled Force user in either trilogy. Anakin ain't doing anything even vaguely resembling this, considering he's not even a Jedi yet, not that it'd be useful.

Rijk's the originator of RanmaFAQ, right? He made another error later when he assumed that the speed of one of Ranma's normal punches was about the same as that of a normal, untrained human being's.
I think it is arguable if the Gravity power would have the normal value as C.R uses in his calcs. But that would be all, and its acceptable, even if open to arguments then.
If I ignore the calcs ( I suppose you accept them, as done correctly, as you contest them as bad because the example used) to them assume Ranma is faster, lets say 6,7 times, then fine, He will break the threat area without much danger of a hit.

The calculation seems to be about right, but using gravity is a poor choice since it's inconsistently depicted throughout the series. And from what we've seen, Ranma can hit 6-7 times peak human without any significant effort on his part, and maintain it for a good long while. The afterimage stuff seems to be done in quick bursts, but he doesn't really seem to show much effort in those incidences either...

If I keep the calcs, then I assume Anakin can hit him when he come inside the threat area, before Ranma was able to come in close combat.
For know then, I will let this open to one future someone prove or not which is better, but for now, Your point is understood and accepted, and any extra argument here will have not to do with this topic, ok ? (For example, no need to argue with you about the block blaster stuff, as it would be only useful if the calcs are accepted fully]

Of course, there's also all those tricks Ranma has that will make blocking or closing range moot, since Anakin doesn't really have any counter for it. And if Ranma has a sabre, he wouldn't even need to try hard. Superior speed and strength, as well as enough skill to hold his own against Cologne (while using a bokken) in an Amaguriken-level fight. Skywalker has no chance of matching him in that type of duel.
He's a lot more skilled at making his opponents go into berserker rages just by talking to them, and Anakin tends to go into berserker charges when people seem to be casually beating him.
So does Ranma, they are actually very much similar, both very skilled, natural born martial artists, with a big ego, stubbornness…

Correction: While Ranma does attack when pissed off, he still usually maintains a lot of control over himself. Heck, he's only tried to kill one person in the entire series and goes out of his way to protect his opponents from harm, even if they were trying to kill him/trap him in girl form/etc... Besides, Anakin never showed the ability or personality required to take advantage of Ranma's own irritability.

But I think people are unfair with Anakin, we do not see that number of battles t osee him going in that rage, but with Dooku, as more skilled swordsman, not beating him casually, but because he was best.

And Ranma, in addition to being a skilled swordsman, is possessing enough speed/strenght/agility/power that he could make the Anakin-Dooku fight look like it was an even match. Anakin was shown having numerous rage and pride issues throught the movie, so he'll be the one to initiate the charge, considering that 99% of the time Ranma waits for his opponent to attack first unless its a personal fight, or the opponent is a superior fighter.
Susceptible to things that Anakin can't possibly bring into the ring, especially not without foreknowledge.
There is no saying that he would know about cats and would pretend to make Ranma hear meows. The tricks can work other way , Just like Obi-wan’s “I do not want to fight, lets look the other side, etc”

Except that there's no evidence that you Jedi Mind Tricks work on the strong of will, which Ranma will fall under. Or that Anakin will even think of doing anything but a straight confrontation.
Anakin's life was a lot less physically and emotionally demanding than the kind of crap that Ranma's been through, up until the death of his mother.
wait, he was a slave in planet of ruthless beings that even the empire avoided. His mother, his so loving one as you claim was abandoned there, died in his arms.

He was a slave to Watoo, who treated him pretty darn good from what we saw. He was living in simple, but decent quarters, he was given the tools, training and materials to build C3PO and race pods, and he was apparently allowed to take over business at the store whenever he was busy, and Anakin was allowed to wander around outside without any major restraints. Neither he nor his mother looked like they were abused, and Anakin had no qualms with leaving his mother in Watoo's care, and was engaged in polite conversation with the little bugger until he found out that his mother had been sold without telling him. All in all, Anakin seems to have a life that was more or less as difficult as a normal farmhand until his Jedi training, which was probably not as difficult as the crap that Ranma went through in his training, if only because Obi Wan isn't as immoral as Genma Saotome. The first major personal trauma he had was the death of his mother which made him slaughter an entire village, including the women and children.

Ranma have not even been within this situation, he never had Nokoda or Akane death for real in his arms and his act when he thought she (akane) did was similar reaction to Anakin’s : He wanted to kill. They are very similar indeed.

When Ranma thought that Akane was dead, he just went into shock the first time and then he simply cried the second time. He only attacked adult Saffron when he found out there was a chance to save her, and even then he tried to limit himself to maiming and KO'ing the phoenix throughout the fight until he was forced to choose to either kill Saffron or be destroyed by an eventual connected hit with the Tenkan Shunmetsu Kyokudan.
Anakin was a very high strung padawan. If you even blinked "Padme" in morse code near him, he'd start tripping over his feet and spouting the lamest come on lines since Dante's "You remind me of my mother."
Wait, Ranma is no success around girls either, he is not even able to express the love, we all know, he feels.
But that is not the point, His mind is so powerful that he , even without training can already manipulate the force to have the big reflexes.

IIRC, Qui Gon had said that that was a normal indication of a child being strong in the force. And conversely, you can use that logic to show that Ranma was so strong in will that he can shoot out sphere's of ki before he even conciously figures out how to do it, ala the Shishi Hokodan.
If he's close enough that he can get that swing off, he's too busy dodging Ranma's attacks or keeping his defense strong to even consider using the JMT cause he can have his face caved in the moment he starts concentrating on it.
no, the Mind trick would be used only if Ranma wanted to won by HSH for example, far away, Those attacks, to summon those energies are as fast as jedi tricks in my opinion.

Again, when has the Jedi Mind Trick ever been shown to work against strong willed people, much less in the midst of battle? Besides, AFAIK, once Ranma starts tossing the HSH or its variations, it's already too late. Even if Ranma gets caught in it as well, he's already survived far worse than being dropped a mile to the ground, wheras Anakin... hasn't.
Ranma *is* extremely good with his weapon.
Anakin is also. The difference is basically, Anakin is better. He will be better, the better will won.

Even if we disregard that Ranma is far faster and stronger, everything I've seen of the beach battle and AOTC puts Ranma as an equal or possibly far superior in terms of skill, even with just sword fighting.
then Anakin leaves about 50 holes in his defense whenever he fights.
That is very unfair, the fight with Dooku he does that, but against a superior foe in the same skill. Not what Ranma is.

Er, if your fighting an opponent you shouldn't leave the openings Anakin did, *especially* not when your opponent is better than you at what you did. Heck, I felt physical pain watching Anakin goof around with those two lightsabres, and I'm not even trained in any school of swordfighting (However, every kendoist and fencer I've talked to since has said that Anakin was fighting like a moron when he grabbed the second lightsabre; If you have two swords, you should use them simultaneously, not one at a time while spinning in windmills). And I'm also talking about the scene where he got into a high stance against the droids, IIRC. IRL, a 3rd year kendo student could have wasted Anakin and Darth Maul at the same time, if they fought like they did in the movies and restrained themselves to not using pre-cognition, theoretical mind tricks, or force pushes.
He attacked both first and frenetically, this shows that he doesn't really care if it is useless or not and that Anakin likes also to atack first, he's reckless and arrogant, remember?
So, it is Ranma. Ranma is faster, he will attack first.
As I said before, when facing most inferior opponents and half of his superior/equal opponents, Ranma usually lets them attack first. His style involves a lot of reaction and redirection of force. Besides, Ranma's personal style actually has 2 or more training methods/techniques that require him to egg his opponent into a angry rush, something that seems very un-Jedi-Like, so is probably not in Anakin's repertoire.
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Post by ANGELUS »

lgot wrote:
ANGELUS wrote: Yeah right, that's why he turned to the dark side, and lets his rage dominate him all the time and Palpatine manipulates him so easily that he doesn't pay attention to his master's
Uh, Being manipulated by Palpatine is not demerit. Everyone in the entire Galaxy was. And Anakin will is not weaker because he turns to the dark side. It was weaker than Palpatine’s that made him turn, that is all. Darth Vader had a extremely strong will, dark side with him.
Well, you see, I remember you saying that his will was stronger than that of most living things, but he was manipulated anyway. Ok, Ranma's been manipulated too, then (USING YOUR OWN LOGIC) this doesn't mean that he has a weak will, only that he's run into people with stronger will, just like Anakin has.
lgot wrote:
ANGELUS wrote: He attacked both first and frenetically, this shows that he doesn't really care if it is useless or not and that Anakin likes also to atack first, he's reckless and arrogant, remember?
So, it is Ranma. Ranma is faster, he will attack first.
Exactly! and guess what Anakin will do? HE WILL TRY TO BLOCK HIS PUNCHES! because no fighter in the entire universe, it doesn't matter how stupid he is, will try to attack while he's been attacked by a faster fighter, he will defend (Because when you get attacked you don't attack back, first you defend, then when the chance comes (if it ever comes) you attack back). And it'll happen just as I described before, he'll try to block hundreds of punches, he will not be able to attack while doing it and he won't be fast enough to stop all of them even if he can predict where they're going to be and will get his butt kicked.
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Post by lgot »

Those things are turning to be too big for any good. When I answered everything in one post I wished to avoid repetition, as many things argued are done by different posters but saying basically the same thing. For sake of the size of that, let try to resume it and if you see that someone posted something about the matter, do not repeat the same argument. Quite frankly, and with no offense to anyone else, let Drunkard Kid do it, as he is actually addressing to the point and seems to be the poster here with better access to the manga and therefore using the examples quite well…
Now other reason that make the length of this topic go is because some people argue with me over things I have not said, or just answer back with the opinion, avoiding to do any argument.

For example, Samas :
Except Anakin is unlikey to hit Ranma.
If I was defending that Ranma can be hit and you do not, you do not need to say that everytime. Even , using your argument as defense of the argument itself does not help.
My defense was not “Anakin will hit because he can”. My defense was Anakin reflexes and skills allow him to block things that move faster than human as well, as he can deflect the blasters. That is what you have to counter (that is just an example of why this topic turns to big).

Or: Angelus:
Exactly! and guess what Anakin will do? HE WILL TRY TO BLOCK HIS PUNCHES! because no fighter in the entire universe, it doesn't matter how stupid he is, will try to attack while he's been attacked by a faster fighter, he will defend
If you Just pay attention that Is exactly What I said since the first post of how Anakin would do it. You are doing what ? Countering my arguments with the very same argument. Why ?
To repeat, like everyone else, that Ranma will punch him hundred times ? No. First Ranma will have to pass by the bigger range of the lightsaber. The argument is either Anakin will be able to hit him or not when doing it. That is what you have to address.

Now:

To everyone:
Everything I've seen puts Kuno as being a buttload faster than any Jedi that's been shown in any of the Episodes as of yet. The blaster blocking trick is done thanks to Jedi Precog, as was shown in the training scene from ANH, and it would be useless against a character with far faster reflexes and range attacks.
He have the precog and the reflexes to act as that. No problem. Just the why to say that the precog will not help to say where Ranma will attack as well ?
The only argument we have is if either Anakin can be fast enough to react to hit Ranma when doing it, right ? That is the only point we have to focus.
No, but he's annoying enough to easily send Anakin into a berserker rush by insulting his skill/speed/strength/etc... From everything shown, Anakin has a crappy level of self control in those situations.
I do not know but that is exaggeration. We do not see people insulting Anakin in the RotC to get him berserker. We actually see that he is overconfident of his skills to hunt Amidala’s assassin and Dooku does not really do that.
In other hand, Ranma ? Saying that he can turn people who already hate him – Ryouga , Moose, etc – to hate him ?
He dealt with it by betraying everything he ever believed in and becoming the antithesis of what he had been raised to be. Oh, and killing his surrogate
From the point of view of Power and Martial arts, He was a total success. That is what I made reference to.
What SAMAS said: The Neko-ken isn't the example of strong will, but his willingness to face his psychological disorder when he must (and on at least 1 occassion instigating this confrontation on purpose) *is* an example of strong willpower.
Except that you people are using a RARE example to defend that as a RULE. That situation is the exception. Overall, Ranma lost control of himself. That is what happens more often, not ALL the time. That is the problem, the rare occasion that he overcome his fear, is not the rule.
*Only* on those like Jabba or Watto? According to Obi it's only useful on the weak of will, as well. Everything shown is that Anakin is weaker of will than Ranma is, and that the JMT requires a moment to initiate, a moment he won't have.
Anakin is Jedi. Jedis have strong will, otherwise they would never be able to control and use the force. He may be the worst self-control of the Jedis, but those are “elite”.
Saying Ranma have a will stronger than Anakin is a opinion you have, there is no basis for that.

As for Yoda, from what we saw in AOTC, it wasn't the Jedi Mind Trick, but just an interference pattern or something like that. Besides, you're using *PALPATINE*, the strongest and most skilled Force user in either trilogy. Anakin ain't doing anything even vaguely resembling this, considering he's not even a Jedi yet, not that it'd be useful.
Well:
Yoda (and others) perception have been affected. Seems like Mind effect. Dooku did that also, he was able to hide his presence from everyone and stolen beneath the moustache of them the information he needed ,erasing that from the records and by the way that seemed, they did not even remembered about that.
Palpatine is example enough, I said it works over people with less power with force, and when making reference, Ranma is someone with less power than Anakin. That is why I defend Ranma is not immune to force manipulation.
The calculation seems to be about right, but using gravity is a poor choice since it's inconsistently depicted throughout the series. And from what we've seen, Ranma can hit 6-7 times peak human without any significant effort on his part, and maintain it for a good long while. The afterimage stuff seems to be done in quick bursts, but he doesn't really seem to show much effort in those incidences
Fine, as I said, there is no need for argument here. As I said I will avoid then arguments about speed-close combat because of that.
Do you agree, that if the calculations are correct and can be used, the notion that Ranma can be hit when moving the threat are of the saber, before being able to do close combat, will make this battle even and Ranma’s better option is the use of not ranged techniques like HSH ?
I, for my part, agree that if I throw away the calculations, Ranma been faster, he will not be hit and won.
I think that is pretty a end for this topic of the debate, do you agree ?

If you do , the only thing Left, to resume it all is if Anakin can use the force against Ranma, right ? And that is all we need to talk about and do not return to old topics ?

He was a slave to Watoo, who treated him pretty darn good from what we saw. He was living in simple,
There is a big difference, Ranma did all that, to do the thing he most loved. Anakin never had this. He suffered for what ? And he actually lost the only thing he loved (Mother), unlike Ranma who suffered to turn what he always wanted. The pressure of slavery can not be compared to Genma’s jerk ways and rigorous training.

Er, if your fighting an opponent you shouldn't leave the openings Anakin did, *especially*
I will not argue that George Lucas portrayed or not a bunch of bad swordsman. We know Anakin is a very good one because the dialogue in the movie.
Now, I did not used Dooku fight as a good fight, but you have been claiming that we seen he doing mistakes, opening, battle rages a lot and We do not see it, as Dooku was the only fight we actually see, he does all the openings, yeah. But not all fights.
And the arena against the robots ? I would say that was a very stupid jedi action, putting all those warriors to die like this, but when You are outnumbered, closing tight defense style, will not be useful. You have to fast and kill as much as you can to reduce the odds. (or runaway, but not a option ) But neither fight we see him going in berserker rage or anything. We could have seen , as he was when his mother died.

As I see, the only left thing to debate is about the ability to resist or not the force.
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Post by The Drunkard Kid »

lgot wrote:For example, Samas :
Except Anakin is unlikey to hit Ranma.
If I was defending that Ranma can be hit and you do not, you do not need to say that everytime. Even , using your argument as defense of the argument itself does not help.
My defense was not “Anakin will hit because he can”. My defense was Anakin reflexes and skills allow him to block things that move faster than human as well, as he can deflect the blasters. That is what you have to counter (that is just an example of why this topic turns to big).

From what we see of the portable blasters, they fire somewhat slower than arrows do, since you can track their movement with your eyes in a straight line parallel to the ground...
Or: Angelus:
Exactly! and guess what Anakin will do? HE WILL TRY TO BLOCK HIS PUNCHES! because no fighter in the entire universe, it doesn't matter how stupid he is, will try to attack while he's been attacked by a faster fighter, he will defend
If you Just pay attention that Is exactly What I said since the first post of how Anakin would do it. You are doing what ? Countering my arguments with the very same argument. Why ?
To repeat, like everyone else, that Ranma will punch him hundred times ? No. First Ranma will have to pass by the bigger range of the lightsaber. The argument is either Anakin will be able to hit him or not when doing it. That is what you have to address.

Everything I've seen in either the manga or the anime seems to indicate that Kuno in volume one is a *lot* faster than anything any Jedi has shown in the 5 released Star Wars movies when it comes to slashing speed, and Ranma has no problem just dashing inside his reach, even when he's already started his fastest technique. Anakin's precog might tell him where Ranma's gonna charge to, but he doesn't have the reflex speed to use this in the space between Ranma starting his rush, and Ranma connecting with about 300 hits to wherever he pleases, since unlike a Stormtrooper from 30 feet away, Ranma can change his target if he see's someone move a lightsaber into his path.

In all likelyhood, if Ranma decides to do something so out of character as rushing a weaker opponent that hasn't personally offended him yet right off the bat, then the fight will go like this: .25 seconds before the bell rings, Anakin's precog tells him where Ranma's gonna attack. At time 0, when the bell rings, Anakin is gonna start moving his blade to intersept that punch and slice Ranma's hand in half. Now, depending on the distance b/w the two fighters, either a) Ranma closes range and pounds Anakin into a bloody pulp in the time it takes the padawan to move his sabre into position, or b) Ranma is far enough away that Anakin has time to bring the blade up, and Ranma's superior reflex and perception speed take note of where it is, and simply decide to hit another spot on the comparative statue. Or c) Anakin sees that Ranma's gonna open up with a Mouko Takabisha, and decides to turn off his lightsabre as his opening move because he's got a better chance of not cutting himself in half.


Now:

To everyone:
Everything I've seen puts Kuno as being a buttload faster than any Jedi that's been shown in any of the Episodes as of yet. The blaster blocking trick is done thanks to Jedi Precog, as was shown in the training scene from ANH, and it would be useless against a character with far faster reflexes and range attacks.
He have the precog and the reflexes to act as that. No problem. Just the why to say that the precog will not help to say where Ranma will attack as well ?

See above: Precog is useful, but not when the opponent is so much faster than you in terms of travel speed and H2H speed/reflexes that you don't have time to act on it, otherwise none of the Jedi would have died during that Droid battle in AOTC.

The only argument we have is if either Anakin can be fast enough to react to hit Ranma when doing it, right ? That is the only point we have to focus.
No, but he's annoying enough to easily send Anakin into a berserker rush by insulting his skill/speed/strength/etc... From everything shown, Anakin has a crappy level of self control in those situations.
I do not know but that is exaggeration. We do not see people insulting Anakin in the RotC to get him berserker. We actually see that he is overconfident of his skills to hunt Amidala’s assassin and Dooku does not really do that.

Fair enough. What I'm saying though, is that Ranma, in addition to casually slapping him around like Dooku was, will also be taunting him at the same time. From Anakin's reaction to the former (he was getting angrier and angrier against Dooku, until Dooku decided that playtime was over and chopped off his hand), that's enough to make him rush and get sloppier, though neither of these will really be necessary.

In other hand, Ranma ? Saying that he can turn people who already hate him – Ryouga , Moose, etc – to hate him ?

He's also managed to piss off people who love him into berserker rushes (and not even just Akane; Shampoo and Ukyou have also whacked him a good one every now and again), and when he actually tried, he managed to drive Ryouga into an angry rush despite the Pig-boy having been previously trying to save his life.
He dealt with it by betraying everything he ever believed in and becoming the antithesis of what he had been raised to be. Oh, and killing his surrogate
From the point of view of Power and Martial arts, He was a total success. That is what I made reference to.

And from the point of sticking to his beliefs and protecting those that he loved, he was an dismal failure. Ranma was more than willing to give up his strength, something he seemed to value even more than his manhood (for which he willingly subjected himself to his greatest fear) to save Akane, wheras Anakin gave up his loved ones in exchange for strength.
What SAMAS said: The Neko-ken isn't the example of strong will, but his willingness to face his psychological disorder when he must (and on at least 1 occassion instigating this confrontation on purpose) *is* an example of strong willpower.
Except that you people are using a RARE example to defend that as a RULE. That situation is the exception. Overall, Ranma lost control of himself. That is what happens more often, not ALL the time. That is the problem, the rare occasion that he overcome his fear, is not the rule.

Yeah, because Ranma doesn't need to face his fear much. The true task is that when he needs to, he can face his fear, or even make a choice to succumb to it. Again, this fear isn't a normal one, but a mental illness. It's like saying that Anakin was a weak willed wimp for not ignoring the Dark Side by himself, except that Ranma's problems come from an earlier age, and are clinically noted as typical of the training he underwent.

However, if you want more constant examples of willpower, Ranma has consitently put himself (without any pressure from anyone else) into situations that would break any real life human being. He's forced himself to try and shove his hands into fire when he was hypersensitive to heat. He starved and dehydrated himself for days/weeks (the translation wasn't clear on that, AFAIK) while simultaneously undergoing strenuous exertion over this period, learning a technique that he knew had killed almost everyone that had ever learned it before. He went through half of a battle, in his female form, while so injured that every single joint was consistently cracking and popping (Martial Arts Skating). He's shattered the hold of both Happosai and Lukkosai's techniques (both of which had caught him offguard, and which he had no reason to suspect were gonna have any mental effect until after it started; In Lukkosai's case, Ranma didn't even take more than a panel to shake it off).

You say that Anakin automatically has strong will because he's undergoing Jedi training, but what examples of strong will did he show during the movies? Using the force doesn't count, because he was born with a natural aptitude for it, wheras Ranma has trained himself to do things with his ki that 99% of the other martial artists in the world can't recreate, and they all have the ability to. Yoda said that Anakin had much fear in him back in TPM, and from his eventual fall from grace, we can see that he lost in his struggle against that, and for far longer than Ranma ever did.

*Only* on those like Jabba or Watto? According to Obi it's only useful on the weak of will, as well. Everything shown is that Anakin is weaker of will than Ranma is, and that the JMT requires a moment to initiate, a moment he won't have.
Anakin is Jedi. Jedis have strong will, otherwise they would never be able to control and use the force. He may be the worst self-control of the Jedis, but those are “elite”.

Anakin is a Padawan, which means that he's just a Jedi in training. As with all other similar systems, I'm fairly confident that not all Padawan become Jedi, since there is always the chance that a student just doesn't have the strength of character to trust with that type of power and responsibility. Now, the fact that Anakin has lasted long enough to learn all the tricks he did seems to indicate that either a) Obi Wan felt that Anakin has the potential to be a Jedi, or b) that he was unwilling to put aside Qui Gon's choice and admit that Yoda was right. I'm betting on a combination of the two, personally.

As for being of strong will because he can use the Force, where does it state that? He was born with the ability to use the Force (as you pointed out by saying that he used low-level Precog to pod race, and how fast Luke learned to use that same ability). Heck, he was chosen by Qui Gon and Obi because he had a natural aptitude due to his own unusual strength. And even with that, he never showed any ability or skill that wasn't being done by Jedi #2-246. Ranma, OTOH, uses ki just like every other martial artist in the series (presumably), but has shown more skills and tricks with it than anyone except arguably Cologne and Happosai who has at least 5 times as much experience as he does.


Saying Ranma have a will stronger than Anakin is a opinion you have, there is no basis for that.

Ranma's shown his strong will. Anakin, OTOH, hasn't. Just saying that he has a strong will because he's getting Jedi training doesn't make it so, since Jedi Force tricks are apparently more inborn than being able to project spheres of energy that's stronger than any Force push ever shown by anyone except possibly Yoda, or being able to control one's emotions and spiritual energy to the point where one can actually go invisible or start tornadoes.
As for Yoda, from what we saw in AOTC, it wasn't the Jedi Mind Trick, but just an interference pattern or something like that. Besides, you're using *PALPATINE*, the strongest and most skilled Force user in either trilogy. Anakin ain't doing anything even vaguely resembling this, considering he's not even a Jedi yet, not that it'd be useful.
Well:
Yoda (and others) perception have been affected. Seems like Mind effect. Dooku did that also, he was able to hide his presence from everyone and stolen beneath the moustache of them the information he needed ,erasing that from the records and by the way that seemed, they did not even remembered about that.

Erasing something from the records doesn't mean that he mindwiped everyone. Kamino wasn't common knowledge to begin with, so all Dooku had to do was erase it from the files without encountering anyone, since I doubt any Jedi ever bothered to memorize the star chart for the entire galaxy. And considering how Yoda seemed to outskill him at every point of their battle, I'd hesitate to say that he pulled a mind trick over the little muppet. As for Palpatine, all that Yoda said was "Impossible to see... the Dark Side clouds everything." Everytime that we've seen the Jedi Mind trick used clearly, the Force user in question is right there, and it's effects are a lot more blatant, not to mention that the target doesn't seem to remember that they were hit with it. This seems more like Palpatine was just sending out an interference signal.

Palpatine is example enough, I said it works over people with less power with force, and when making reference, Ranma is someone with less power than Anakin. That is why I defend Ranma is not immune to force manipulation.

Less power with the Force. Yet again, there's no actual statement that the Jedi mind trick (which is probably the among the *last* things that a Jedi teaches their padawan... did Anakin ever even display that ability during the movie?) requires anything but strong will to resist (though race can nullify even this necessity), while the Palapatine example has enough differences from *every* other usage of the Jedi mind trick that it can safely be assumed that its either something completely different, or a variation that requires more power and/or skill than Anakin can possibly have.
The calculation seems to be about right, but using gravity is a poor choice since it's inconsistently depicted throughout the series. And from what we've seen, Ranma can hit 6-7 times peak human without any significant effort on his part, and maintain it for a good long while. The afterimage stuff seems to be done in quick bursts, but he doesn't really seem to show much effort in those incidences
Fine, as I said, there is no need for argument here. As I said I will avoid then arguments about speed-close combat because of that.
Do you agree, that if the calculations are correct and can be used, the notion that Ranma can be hit when moving the threat are of the saber, before being able to do close combat, will make this battle even and Ranma’s better option is the use of not ranged techniques like HSH ?
I, for my part, agree that if I throw away the calculations, Ranma been faster, he will not be hit and won.
I think that is pretty a end for this topic of the debate, do you agree ?

If you do , the only thing Left, to resume it all is if Anakin can use the force against Ranma, right ? And that is all we need to talk about and do not return to old topics ?

Fair enough. However, a major argument was that Ranma can easily slip into Anakin's range without any danger, and that he can attack before Anakin can use the Force for any useful ability. Not to mention that Anakin hasn't shown raw power enough to match Saotome's physical stats (kicking someone into a mountainside so hard that the sturdy appearing stone overhang above them collapses, etc....) with the Force, much less the various ki tricks he brings to the table.
He was a slave to Watoo, who treated him pretty darn good from what we saw. He was living in simple,
There is a big difference, Ranma did all that, to do the thing he most loved. Anakin never had this. He suffered for what ? And he actually lost the only thing he loved (Mother), unlike Ranma who suffered to turn what he always wanted.

Again, my argument was that until this moment, Anakin never showed that he suffered anywhere near as much as Ranma did. This particular instance is as strong a mental trauma as both times that Ranma thought that Akane had died, but in both cases Ranma either a) shut down emotionally, or b) apologized to Akane's corpse for failing her and started to cry. Anakin went on a bloody rampage, which went against his trainng as a Padawan, and what his mother probably would have wanted. However, his reaction to this event may not count as an act of poor willpower, but poor character, the same thing that Yoda warned about in Episode 1. And it should be noted that by this point, he also loved Padme and Obi Wan.

The pressure of slavery can not be compared to Genma’s jerk ways and rigorous training.

True, especially when the slavery in question seems to be more like the traditional apprenticeship of a mideival craftsman, but with cushier living conditions and a nicer master. I have yet to see one instance where his so called slavery was anything even remotely rigorous, especially since he had the free time and training to do the things he enjoyed (Pod racing, and building a droid) wasn't seperated from his loved one, didn't seem to be abused in the slightest (if anything, Watoo seemed to be gruffly fond of the little moptop), and was allowed to come and go as he pleased. Wheras Ranma was seperated from his mother and any friends he made over the years of travel, focused solely on the Martial Arts (admittedly, this was something he loved, but it was still extremly grueling physically), and was repeatedly abused in ways that would make both the UN and the ASPCA declare war on the abuser(his father stole his food from him and of course, the Neko Ken, though all that is probably due to Genma's idiocy and greed rather than any genuine ill will). Given a choice b/w slavery to Watoo and training under Genma, sign me up for the former. Twice, just in case.
Er, if your fighting an opponent you shouldn't leave the openings Anakin did, *especially*
I will not argue that George Lucas portrayed or not a bunch of bad swordsman. We know Anakin is a very good one because the dialogue in the movie.

And as I said two posts ago, that's generally my view on this topic. However, we know that Anakin isn't a Jedi yet, and that he doesn't focus on his training as much as Obi Wan says he should. Now, while Anakin is probably very good for a Padawan, Ranma has dealt with weapon using masters that make Kenobi look like a rank amatuer, and managed to avoid their strikes. Combine it with Ranma's insane speed, strength and perception advantages, as well as his much greater experience (this is Anakin's first big job; Ranma went against people that would eat Maul and Dooku together for breakfast at least a dozen times; Herb, Saffron, Happosai, Cologne, Asura-Rouge, Ryu Kumon, etc...

Now, I did not used Dooku fight as a good fight, but you have been claiming that we seen he doing mistakes, opening, battle rages a lot and We do not see it, as Dooku was the only fight we actually see, he does all the openings, yeah. But not all fights.

There's no real other fights, as you say. However, if we go by what was shown, then Anakin leaving that many openings against a superior foe indicates that he either leaves even more openings all the time, or has such little control over his own emotionst that he gets sloppier when facing someone stronger and more skilled than himself. In either case, it works out for Ranma's benefit, though he doesn't really need the extra help.

And the arena against the robots ? I would say that was a very stupid jedi action, putting all those warriors to die like this, but when You are outnumbered, closing tight defense style, will not be useful. You have to fast and kill as much as you can to reduce the odds. (or runaway, but not a option ) But neither fight we see him going in berserker rage or anything. We could have seen , as he was when his mother died.

I wasn't talking about the actions of all the Jedi, just how Anakin used a high stance to wait for the robots to fire; Even with precognition, its a silly thing to do since that means you have to move your saber a significantly greater distance to defend yourself than if it was in a low guard position. If he wanted to use the offensive in a hope to break away or close range, than he should have charged. Using a high stance is to counter attacks from above.

As I see, the only left thing to debate is about the ability to resist or not the force.
Or the ability to use the Force in the time given, or even his abilities with the Force. Even without settling whether or not the mind trick can affect any non-force user that doesn't have species immunity, at no time in any of the movies have we ever seen a Padawan ever use the mind trick (Luke was a Jedi by necesity, not a padawan). We've never seen any Jedi or Sith reach the speeds that Kuno had, much less what's necessary to fight Ranma by the end of the manga, even with precognition on their side..
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lgot
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Post by lgot »

From what we see of the portable blasters, they fire somewhat slower than arrows do, since you can track their movement with your eyes in a straight line parallel to the ground...
Wait there, we can track the movement of a tennis ball and they go with speeds over 120 Km/h. That is way faster than 3,4 times the speed of one human. And even we, normal humans (us as not you and me of course) still can hit that ball and not just a simple block, but also to control the direction and effect the ball will take.
But there is no need for both of us to speculate, right ? Someone probably know the speed of the blaster somewhere…
Everything I've seen in either the manga or the anime seems to indicate that Kuno in volume one is a *lot* faster than anything any Jedi has shown in the 5 released Star Wars movies when it comes to slashing speed,
I already showed the calcs that allowed me to have a conclusion about the speed. If we are not going to talk about them –either to dismiss or to accept – there is no point in giving more impressions of speed, right ?
otherwise none of the Jedi would have died during that Droid battle in AOTC.
Wait, they do not died because the droids are much faster, they died because they are outnumbered. There is no point being able to defend against one blaster if you hit by other 3.
. From Anakin's reaction to the former (he was getting angrier and angrier against Dooku, until Dooku decided that playtime was over and chopped off his hand), that's enough to make him rush and get sloppier, though neither of these will really be necessary.
Again, He did not got angry because any taunt, but because he was not able to defeat Dooku. Since we both agree that the fight will be very fast if Ranma win there is no need to even consider such option.

He's also managed to piss off people who love him into berserker rushes (and not even just Akane; Shampoo and Ukyou have also whacked him a good one every now and again), and when he actually tried, he managed to drive Ryouga into an angry rush despite the Pig-boy having been previously trying to save his life.
Wait, Akane is always pissed with him. He often does that without even wanting too. Ryouga, please, he got berserker just by Ranma telling him that he (Ranma) was cursed. Shampoo and Ukyou really did not had big berserkers rages (they are both proud ,so they get angry) but only by specific stuff and in all those situations, Ranma know very well the people he angered. Which is not what happens with Anakin, so there is no reason to believe that Ranma’s taunt will work with him. Unless ^_^Amidala just fall in love with Ranma and decides to marry him. Then that would be a berserker and I am sure Anakin would end falling in some spring also.
And from the point of sticking to his beliefs and protecting those that he loved, he was an dismal failure. Ranma was more than willing to give up his strength, something he seemed to value even more than his manhood (for which he willingly subjected himself to his greatest fear) to save Akane, wheras Anakin gave up his loved ones in exchange for strength.
So, that makes Anakin weaker how ? His Will diminished ? Actually, no. His goodness diminished, yeah. There is a difference.
However, if you want more constant examples of willpower,
Yeah, Ranma is extremely determinate and devoted student of martial arts. Does that show any evidence that he will resist force manipulation ? No.
You say that Anakin automatically has strong will because he's undergoing Jedi training, but what examples of strong will did he show during the movies?
Having Jar-Jar as a friend!
Seriously, Jedis train to use their will to manipulate the force. That is indication of will strong enough to feats humans can not do.
Plus, Anakin’s will is the same of Darth Vader, since they are the same person. Darth have a weaker will ?
OTOH, uses ki just like every other martial artist in the series (presumably), but has shown more skills and tricks with it than anyone except arguably Cologne and Happosai who has at least 5 times as much experience as he does.
Yeah, Happosai and Cologne are without doubt the greatest Martial Artists of the series (among the usual cast of course). They hold the greatest number of tricks yeah. Happosai can manipulate chi and pull forth a battle aura of great power. And yet, Happosai have not a strong will. He can not resist to underwear. This is not even anything about training like Ranma’s. Therefore claiming the technique range of Ranma to be a show of his great will is not logical, since the same theory falls out with Happosai. And even so, that would hardly prove Ranma can resist force manipulation.
Erasing something from the records doesn't mean that he mindwiped everyone.
I did not said that. I said that when he did he masked his acts to a point that no one even remembered anything about this.
As for Palpatine, all that Yoda said was "Impossible to see... the Dark Side clouds everything."
Still, Yoda perception was affected by a power done with the force. So he could be manipulated by the force, even with his amazing will.
that he pulled a mind trick over the little muppet. Everytime that we've seen the Jedi Mind trick used clearly, the Force user in question is right there, and it's effects are a lot more blatant, not to mention that the target doesn't seem to remember that they were hit with it
That may mean that Palpatine is powerful enough to do that without being always present also. But that is irrelevant, it is a example of Force Manipulation over someone that is no weaker will.
. Now, the fact that Anakin has lasted long enough to learn all the tricks he did seems to indicate that either
Wait, that does not follow what Obi-Wan talk about him. He praises Anakin enough.
In A New Hope he actually say that Anakin was a jedi, but that could mean a lot of course. He could be lying to get Luke hooked or just being sentimental and we never see Anakin having the formal investiture as Jedi Knight. But that is irrelevant, so far it seems that was not his skills but his betrayal that kept him in turning in one Jedi.
(which is probably the among the *last* things that a Jedi teaches their padawan... did Anakin ever even display that ability during the movie?)
I have no idea, probably someone know this information, right ? but you also said that mind tricks seemed to be inborn a few sentences back, So I guess We are not good enough about this…
Given a choice b/w slavery to Watoo and training under Genma, sign me up for the former. Twice, just in case
Most of people would agree that slavery and denial of hope and dreams coming from it cause a bigger psychological trauma than having a hard training to do something you love a lot. Much otherwise, the success there would be beneficial. But that would now turn in avoiding the topic, since there is possible that someone born in luxury have strong will and someone living in a hell don’t , there is no reason for us to argue any longer about this, here in this topic. In other place perhaps.
Now, while Anakin is probably very good for a Padawan, Ranma has dealt with weapon using masters that make Kenobi look like a rank amateur
Wait, who ? (And in this case, Ranma also did not fought them with their weapons, but with his own techniques. )
we go by what was shown, then Anakin leaving that many openings against a superior foe indicates that he either leaves even more openings all the time, or has such little control over his own emotionst that he gets sloppier when facing someone stronger and more skilled than himself.
Not really. Because we have Obi-wan praising his sword’s skill, remember ? If Anakin usually acted like that Obi-wan would not ever say that. Unless we consider Obi-wan to be a moron.
I wasn't talking about the actions of all the Jedi, just how Anakin used a high stance to wait for the robots to fire;
Wait, that is Lucas’s bad portrait of an Fighting stance. After all, Anakin was able to survive very well in such situation that many other Jedi could not. That means, that despite of the impression we had, he acted well.
Or the ability to use the Force in the time given, or even his
abilities with the Force.
I assume that we could have support about his skills with the force yeah.
But the speed of using the power ? Everytime we see any use of the force it happens almost instantly when for example , the HSH fast use against Saffron was caused by the great heat inside the mountain and the fireballs and even so, it was not instantly.
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Post by consequences »

Not almost instantly, there is a signifigant period involved in the chucking of heavy objects as they start to move and gradually build up speed(almost as if they were being moved on some sort of motorised system).
Depending upon what Anakin tries, onset may or may not be quick, and I realise now that I failed to specify the intel that Anakin has on Ranma. For instance, if he tries a normal human strength force choke, Ranma isn't even going to notice.
Since I didn't specify for either, figure that Cologne/Palpatine(since Anny listens to Palpy more than anyone else) both warned their students that they "are facing a dangerous adversary, be on your guard", but weren't able to go into specifics.
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Post by SAMAS »

lgot wrote:
From what we see of the portable blasters, they fire somewhat slower than arrows do, since you can track their movement with your eyes in a straight line parallel to the ground...
Wait there, we can track the movement of a tennis ball and they go with speeds over 120 Km/h. That is way faster than 3,4 times the speed of one human. And even we, normal humans (us as not you and me of course) still can hit that ball and not just a simple block, but also to control the direction and effect the ball will take.
But there is no need for both of us to speculate, right ? Someone probably know the speed of the blaster somewhere…
You're dodging the question.

The point is that while a blaster can be tracked by the human eye, Ranma's basic attacks cannot.
Everything I've seen in either the manga or the anime seems to indicate that Kuno in volume one is a *lot* faster than anything any Jedi has shown in the 5 released Star Wars movies when it comes to slashing speed,
I already showed the calcs that allowed me to have a conclusion about the speed. If we are not going to talk about them –either to dismiss or to accept – there is no point in giving more impressions of speed, right ?
The closest you have come to providing "calcs," as it were are two things:

#1. Claiming that Anakin can move fast enough to deflect blaster bolts with his lightsaber.

Rebuttal to #1: Jedi use pregognition, not speed, to determine where the blaster is going to hit, and are moving their Lightsabers to intercept the attack before the trigger is even pulled, or the firing command given. The actual movements of the Jedi to block are well within the parameters of a normal human.

However, Ranma's punches are not only generally faster than blaster bolts, but they're a lot more controllable. In the time it takes for Anakin to move his saber to intercept Ranma's first punch, Ranma can not only pull his fist back in time, but can also deal out punches 2 thru 87 to other places on Anakin's body.

In addition, Ranma's punches will be coming in from a lot closer than anyone has ever shot at a Jedi. Most Droids and Stormtroopers never fired from less than 5 meters away. This gave the Jedi plenty of time to move their lightsabers into position to deflect or reflect the coming bolt. Anakin will be lucky if there's two feet of space between Ranma and himself. Not a lot of time to intercept a punch that can move at supersonic speeds.

And no, it doesn't matter that Ranma's running speed is about 3-4 times that of a human. His attacking speed is far greater than that. Hell, his sprinting speed was better than that in volume 1.
otherwise none of the Jedi would have died during that Droid battle in AOTC.
Wait, they do not died because the droids are much faster, they died because they are outnumbered. There is no point being able to defend against one blaster if you hit by other 3.
Now change "blaster" to "punch," and up 3 to 30.

That's going to be this fight against Ranma.
. From Anakin's reaction to the former (he was getting angrier and angrier against Dooku, until Dooku decided that playtime was over and chopped off his hand), that's enough to make him rush and get sloppier, though neither of these will really be necessary.
Again, He did not got angry because any taunt, but because he was not able to defeat Dooku. Since we both agree that the fight will be very fast if Ranma win there is no need to even consider such option.
If you admit that Ranma wil win, then why are we having this argument?
He's also managed to piss off people who love him into berserker rushes (and not even just Akane; Shampoo and Ukyou have also whacked him a good one every now and again), and when he actually tried, he managed to drive Ryouga into an angry rush despite the Pig-boy having been previously trying to save his life.
Wait, Akane is always pissed with him. He often does that without even wanting to.
Actually, he gets along well with Akane on a day-to-day basis.
Ryouga, please, he got berserker just by Ranma telling him that he (Ranma) was cursed. Shampoo and Ukyou really did not had big berserkers rages (they are both proud ,so they get angry) but only by specific stuff and in all those situations, Ranma know very well the people he angered. Which is not what happens with Anakin, so there is no reason to believe that Ranma’s taunt will work with him.
But like you yourself said, Anakin goes berserker just because someone is beating him easily.

Guess what? Ranma is going to be beating him easily. And he's going to be insulting Anakin's fighting ability the whole time.
And from the point of sticking to his beliefs and protecting those that he loved, he was an dismal failure. Ranma was more than willing to give up his strength, something he seemed to value even more than his manhood (for which he willingly subjected himself to his greatest fear) to save Akane, wheras Anakin gave up his loved ones in exchange for strength.
So, that makes Anakin weaker how ? His Will diminished ? Actually, no. His goodness diminished, yeah. There is a difference.


No, that makes him a failure, not a sucess, as a Jedi. In case you forgot, that was the point about this part. Do try to keep up with the discussion, please?

And incedentially, he failed because his will was not strong enough to resist Palatine's manipulations. So it is at least partially an indicator of a weaker will.
However, if you want more constant examples of willpower,
Yeah, Ranma is extremely determinate and devoted student of martial arts. Does that show any evidence that he will resist force manipulation ? No.
But the fact that he can concentrate his confidence in a giant energy blast, Pick up a giant boulder while his body was weaker than a 5-year-old, damn near starve himself to death(and against his appetite, to boot), and resist the ultimate fear(and clinical disorder, if not outright insanity) in his life to protect Akane does show that he has a very strong will, which, as Obi-Wan said way back in episode four, can resist the Jedi Mind Trick.
You say that Anakin automatically has strong will because he's undergoing Jedi training, but what examples of strong will did he show during the movies?
Having Jar-Jar as a friend!
Seriously, Jedis train to use their will to manipulate the force. That is indication of will strong enough to feats humans can not do.
Plus, Anakin’s will is the same of Darth Vader, since they are the same person. Darth have a weaker will ?


Only in the end. Only when, right in his face, he had to make a choice between Palpatine's will, and the life of his son, did he finally get the backbone to do the right thing.

So far, any other time, Nakin has not shown a stong will, and has let his own emotions carry him, exactly the opposite of his Jedi training.
OTOH, uses ki just like every other martial artist in the series (presumably), but has shown more skills and tricks with it than anyone except arguably Cologne and Happosai who has at least 5 times as much experience as he does.
Yeah, Happosai and Cologne are without doubt the greatest Martial Artists of the series (among the usual cast of course). They hold the greatest number of tricks yeah. Happosai can manipulate chi and pull forth a battle aura of great power. And yet, Happosai have not a strong will. He can not resist to underwear. This is not even anything about training like Ranma’s. Therefore claiming the technique range of Ranma to be a show of his great will is not logical, since the same theory falls out with Happosai. And even so, that would hardly prove Ranma can resist force manipulation.
On the other hand, Happosai's style involves using his urges to increase his power and abilities. He has no reason to restrain his lust. Cologne, on the other hand, is the picture of control.

This ain't about Happosai or Cologne, however. This is about Ranma, who has often shown extraordinary willpower in the many situations he's been in.
As for Palpatine, all that Yoda said was "Impossible to see... the Dark Side clouds everything."
Still, Yoda perception was affected by a power done with the force. So he could be manipulated by the force, even with his amazing will.
Wrong. That was not a manipulation of others, but duelling manipulations, as it were. Yoda was searching, Paplatine was hiding. Palpatine didn't have to do anything to Yoda, just be better at hiding than Yoda was at seeking.

And even then, if the theory that Palatine was using his will to bolster his army in RotJ, that would mean that Palpatine's will would be orders of magnitude greater than Yoda's. And so far, evidence shows that Anakin's will isn't even par with Ranma's, much less far greater.
that he pulled a mind trick over the little muppet. Everytime that we've seen the Jedi Mind trick used clearly, the Force user in question is right there, and it's effects are a lot more blatant, not to mention that the target doesn't seem to remember that they were hit with it
That may mean that Palpatine is powerful enough to do that without being always present also. But that is irrelevant, it is a example of Force Manipulation over someone that is no weaker will.
See above.
Now, while Anakin is probably very good for a Padawan, Ranma has dealt with weapon using masters that make Kenobi look like a rank amateur
Wait, who ? (And in this case, Ranma also did not fought them with their weapons, but with his own techniques. )
Kuno, Ryouga, Shampoo, Mousse, Toma, Pantyhose, Kirin, Herb, Rouge, Ryu Kumon, Saffron.
we go by what was shown, then Anakin leaving that many openings against a superior foe indicates that he either leaves even more openings all the time, or has such little control over his own emotionst that he gets sloppier when facing someone stronger and more skilled than himself.
Not really. Because we have Obi-wan praising his sword’s skill, remember ? If Anakin usually acted like that Obi-wan would not ever say that. Unless we consider Obi-wan to be a moron.
Ask Wong. Accodring to him, the Jedi actually do some rather stupid things in AtoC.

But that's beside the point here. The fact remains that Anakin leaves openings that Ranma could easily exploit.
I wasn't talking about the actions of all the Jedi, just how Anakin used a high stance to wait for the robots to fire;
Wait, that is Lucas’s bad portrait of an Fighting stance. After all, Anakin was able to survive very well in such situation that many other Jedi could not. That means, that despite of the impression we had, he acted well.
Doesn't matter. That was the stance he used, and it was a bad one.
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